[dan87uk]

Originally posted by TrashMan


Lucifer take on a Sathanas? where do you get that from.

It took Lucy 4 salvos to take out the Galatea - something a Sath would do in 1 salvo. Not to mention a Sath has 1000000hp

go setup a little fred mission of a lucifer versus a sathanas, 75% probability of Lucifer Winning, has been proven time and time again

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by BD
I'm with aldo on this one.

After all, if the Colossus was made to fight the Lucifer, it means that Lucy would've easily gone down with any of the new weapons in the GTVA arsenal.

 

I'm not saying it would lose, though; just that it would take damage.  Someone dig up the damage rate of the Lucy's flux cannons - that'd be the key.  I think the Lucy would simply kill anything before it had the chance to inflict lethal damage, with the possible exception of the Sath and Colossus.

[Kie99]

Originally posted by dan87uk


go setup a little fred mission of a lucifer versus a sathanas, 75% probability of Lucifer Winning, has been proven time and time again

No, don't bother, Shivan Super Laser (the flux gun) can't damage a Sathanas, Collossus or Volition BRavos below 75%

[KappaWing]

Basically, it just seems too powerful to simply be a Orbital Attack vehicle. It was certainly some kind of command ship, since the Shivans lost coherence when it was destroyed, but, what commands, issued by who?

Maybe the Shivans considered the Lucifer their ultimate weapon, that Is not only powerful, but verstile also (command ship, but also suitable for planetary bombardments, because you need powerful weapons to have a range that goes from outer space to the surface of a planet) . It is also possible that the Hive Mind nerve center of the Shivans was located aboard that ship. That's why the Shivans went to such great legnths to protect it, with shields and all. And that also explains why they couldent co-ordinate with each other when It was destroyed.

[KappaWing]

I don't subscribe to this hive mind theory, if the Terrans had one command ship and then it got destroyed I think the terra fleet would be a little dis-orientated as well. (In the tech room it says the Shivan fleet behaved weirdly after the Destruction of the Lucifer and Eva.)

The Shivans weren't just disioriented, they were totally lost. Their strikes were poorly co-ordinated while GTVA was working as a team. It was like one Shivan didn't know what the other one was doing, and they were individualistic without their "hive mind" base.

And what about Capella?

In the end sequence, many juggernauts stay behind and sacrifice themselves so the other Shivans could get through. If the shivans thought independently, they wouldent want to be the ones that got left behind and they probably would have a mutiny or something. This all for one and one for all atittude is charictaristic of a collective intellegence.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

or perhaps they know what happens once we shrug off this mortal coif, so the death of the physical body really doesn't mean so much to them.

[Kie99]

Originally posted by KappaWing


The Shivans weren't just disioriented, they were totally lost. Their strikes were poorly co-ordinated while GTVA was working as a team. It was like one Shivan didn't know what the other one was doing, and they were individualistic without their "hive mind" base.

And what about Capella?

In the end sequence, many juggernauts stay behind and sacrifice themselves so the other Shivans could get through. If the shivans thought independently, they wouldent want to be the ones that got left behind and they probably would have a mutiny or something. This all for one and one for all atittude is charictaristic of a collective intellegence.

Remember they hadno destroyers left and hardly any cruisers, and the ones they did have would be hunted down and destroyed quickly by the GTA and the PVN.  Also its canon that Shivans can communicate using ships (Iceni and Shivans) and those Comm Nodes, not to mention all Shivan ships have a communication subsystem AFAIK.

Maybe the Juggernauts that stayed behind were sacrificing themselves to make sure the other Sathanes escaped.  Maybe if they hadn't then whatever the Sathanes jumped through could have been swallowed by the SuperNova.

[KappaWing]

Maybe the ship-ship communication is actually ship-Hive Mind-ship communtication. Maybe ETAK was a device that allowed Bosch to speak to the Hive Mind and then have that message relayed to the Rephaim.

You're right about the Shivans sacrificing themselves so other Shivans could get through. A hive mind would think that "Well, If we sacrifice half the Sathanas, then the other half could get through. That's a reasonable sacrifice considering the circumstances." While if a Shivan was thinking independently, it would think "I don't care about the other Sathani, but I want to get through that node!" and the result would be everyone trying to use the node at once. Which didn't happen because some willfully stayed behind and let themselves be consumed by the Supernova, which proves that they are Hive-Minded.

or perhaps they know what happens once we shrug off this mortal coif, so the death of the physical body really doesn't mean so much to them.

Still, if they thought individually, they would think "Better HIS mortal coil than MY mortal coil!"

[Kie99]

Originally posted by KappaWing
Maybe the ship-ship communication is actually ship-Hive Mind-ship communtication. Maybe ETAK was a device that allowed Bosch to speak to the Hive Mind and then have that message relayed to the Rephaim.

You're right about the Shivans sacrificing themselves so other Shivans could get through. A hive mind would think that "Well, If we sacrifice half the Sathanas, then the other half could get through. That's a reasonable sacrifice considering the circumstances." While if a Shivan was thinking independently, it would think "I don't care about the other Sathani, but I want to get through that node!" and the result would be everyone trying to use the node at once. Which didn't happen because some willfully stayed behind and let themselves be consumed by the Supernova, which proves that they are Hive-Minded.

OK so if there was a Gate and there were five people outside the gate ,  The people who didn't go inside the gate would die immediately, and the people who went into the gate would carry on living as normal.  Only 4 people can go through the gate and if all of them tried to go through then they would all die.  I'm pretty sure a few people would stay behind to die instead of tryng to go through the gate so that everyone else would die.

[KappaWing]

If I were a Shivan, I wouldn't wanna stay behind and get toasted.

[AlphaOne]

Well I believe that a specie that can constuct Satani has to be moe inteligent then a simple hive mind. As for the whole Capella thing well think about it :

If you are trying to get home and you have these strange things killing you(if the shivans havent had the whole Sathani fleet they would most certainly get theyr asses kicked al over the place because it seems to me that the GTVA is superior in tems of tactics and strategi the the shivans) then what would you do tri and make a run for it and maibe get your ass blown (remember that they dont know how many Colossus class ships the GTVA has so in theyr mind we might have a whole fleet right aound the corner waiting to blow them up).

No you would stay behind and ty to protect the "refugees" as they make a run for theyr home lanet and seal the door behind.

Remember what the Colossus did it sacificed itself so that the refugees can flee  (they kept at least part of the shivan force concentrated around them to give the others a chance).

So in my mind there is no doubt that the shivans did the same thing. Remember that we were kicking theyr but all over the nebula no matter how many shis they sent at us. The losses on the part of the GTVA were a lot smaller then what the shivans semed to lose ,that is till they sent in the Sathanos.

They needed the Sathanos to help them tun the situation in they favor we did not need the Colossus in the begining.

[dan87uk]

erm lots of typo's so hard to understand, but i think i get what your saying...its speculation only of course but plausable

[ShadowWolf_IH]

it is only plausible if you are willing to humanize the shivans.  The Shivans are much more alien to us than the vasudans are. I don't think that the motivations that they have can be attributed to anything that a human would do.

[Falcon]

Shivans = One big game of chess

[AlphaOne]

Well I dont mean to humanize the shivans but there are similarities between what we would do and what the shivans did.

The hive mind would be too simple. The shivans proved to be much more versatile in terms of tactics and ship's design's .

We must give them more credit. I mean if they were a hive mind how would they be able to adapt theyr tactics and redeploy theyr forces in such a short time. And where is the "queen" the overmind which controls the whole lot of them.

From we hav seen in hive minds (insects) they tend to kinda keep their leader close by so that they can take orders and stuff like that.

Also where is their colony????????

Considering how much the GTVA explored the shivan controled space they failed to detect any sort of colony or base of operations. Keep in mind the SOC mission with the whole comunication nodes and stuff like that.

[KappaWing]

Alright, first and foremost:

Remember what the Colossus did it sacificed itself so that the refugees can flee (they kept at least part of the shivan force concentrated around them to give the others a chance).

Sacrificing so many Shivans so a few could make it through the node = Hive Mind mentality.

So in my mind there is no doubt that the shivans did the same thing. Remember that we were kicking theyr but all over the nebula no matter how many shis they sent at us. The losses on the part of the GTVA were a lot smaller then what the shivans semed to lose ,that is till they sent in the Sathanos.

Not true! I remember that early in the nebular campaign, right after the Actium and Lysander missions, a briefing mentioned that the alliance lost a DESTROYER and a few other warships when attacking the Ravana.

The alliance lost a Destroyer, two Corvettes, and numerous cruisers to the Shivans, while the shivans only lost the Ravana, 2 cruisers, and 1 corvette. And I'm sure there were many other missions that weren't flown by alpha 1 that ended in the complete destruction of the alliance forces. And remember, they were just playing around before they sent the first Sathanas in. And even still then they were just having fun. They only got serious when they sent in the Sathanas fleet that could quickly destroy the GTVA  if they wanted to. The GTVA was running and hiding from the Shians because the Shivans ARE FAR MORE technologically advanced and FAR MORE numerous than the GTVA! And we haven't even begun to peer in to Shivan held systems deep within. If they have Sathanas class juggernauts on the fringes of the system, just think what type of ships they have in their core systems. And also remember that annihalation of the GTVA was not their top priority, as their sathanases favored doing whatever they were doing to the Capella sun rather then engaging the fleet. If the Shivans top priority was xenocide, then they surley would have killed off the GTVA quickly and efficiently as they have done with the ancients.

Well I believe that a specie that can constuct Satani has to be moe inteligent then a simple hive mind.

Hive minds are MORE intellegent than individual minds, because it's all the Shivans' brainpower lumped into one supreme collective intellegence.

No you would stay behind and ty to protect the "refugees" as they make a run for theyr home lanet and seal the door behind.

The Shivans dont care about other Shivan lives unless the hive mind dictates so, such as the sacrificing of the Sathanas at capella. This is evidenced by the lack of escape pods and the strucural weakness of the Shivan personell transports.

In conclusion, the Shivans could kill the GTVA at the flick of a finger if they wanted to, but the GTVA is obviously just a distraction for the Shivans, as the Shivans only send in their big fleets unless they ablsolutley HAVE TO. They must have someting far more important, and possibly sinister, on their agenda.

[StratComm]

Originally posted by AlphaOne
Considering how much the GTVA explored the shivan controled space they failed to detect any sort of colony or base of operations. Keep in mind the SOC mission with the whole comunication nodes and stuff like that.

Considering what the GTVA has seen of "Shivan Space" consists of one nebula, presumably created in a Capella-like event, and the one system beyond (through which the Shivans brought in more Saths; they weren't there already), I'd say it's absolutely no suprise that we don't actually see a shivan colony or whatever it is that they do.  The GTVA has done precisely 0 reconissance into Shivan space.

[freespace2pilot]

that shivan trailer home theory by s9 was posted on Gamespot too.
finally i understand why a thread was started with
"na i think this just proves my theory..."

as for my theory, i think the lucifer was some experimental ship, which they were sending to an "uninhabited" section of the Galaxy to test its incredible main cannon and engage in war games with the rest of the, so called, lucifer fleet.
our little slice of space was supposed to be empty because there were no ancients there (obviously) and they hadnt checked up on it for a long time.
they turn up here and think "what the hell - didnt we allready kill these guys?!", thinking we are ancients, and try to finish the job. somebody neglects to tell an important person that there is a war in progress, several years pass, and their new superweapon hasnt returned. the shivans then send a small group (the rakshasa and its battle group) to investigate, whilst setting up a backup group one jump back (the ravana) just in case. wats left of the rakshasas group reports back lots of "ancients" and no superweapon, and the shivan armada, who are decidedly pissed off, come down on us like a ton of bricks, using one of their formidible sathan...i...e. we took down the sathanas, and they decided to completely destroy us, sending what i hope was a large chunk of their sathanas fleet. once they had obliterated our most powerful weapon, the collosus, they decide to really teach us a lesson by destroying the Capella star. they then some how harness the power of the supernova to jump out *most* of their sathanas fleet.

[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by KappaWing

Hive minds are MORE intellegent than individual minds, because it's all the Shivans' brainpower lumped into one supreme collective intellegence.

By that logic, the ants in my backyard are more intelligent then I am.

Hive minds are inherently more efficent, I will grant that. But intelligence does not necessarily follow from that. In fact, one-for-one, a Terran or Vasudan can probably mentally outdo a Shivan any day. Because the hive mind centralizes the thinking, its individual units are not required to be as intelligent.

[KappaWing]

It's bad to compare the Shivans' hive mind to ants' hive mind. For one, and individual Shivan is as (or more) intellegent than an individual Terran mind, where an ant's individual mind is far less intellegent than a Terran mind.

Second, an individual Shivan still retains his intellegence even after becoming one with the hive mind. It is their ability to pool their intellegence in such a manner that they have created Sathani and other technological marvels. If Terrans had a hive mind, they would be far more efficient AND intellegent (collectivley) than if they were all thinking independently (as they do). That is why they are so behind the Shivans in terms of technology. The individual Shivan retains his intellegence because that way he will have more to contribute to the hive mind as a collective. Their superior technology is evidence to that.