[TrashMan]

Originally posted by karajorma

Why would they send another Sath to the current location of the Colossus when the one already there was doing a perfectly good job of killing the Colossus

/// Of course you are. You haven't read what I wrote carefully.
I said shivans COULD send another one if they wanted to at any time, regardless if collie retreats or not.

And yet again you're making no sense. Who are they buying time for? My whole point was that the Colossus's sacrifice had nothing to do with buying time because it's pretty f**king obvious that they didn't buy any time whatsoever.  It had to do with making the Shivans think that they could defeat the remaining ships with their bombers and smaller capships and letting the Saths go back to working on their suntan.

//// Of coure they could defeat defeat the reamining ships without the saths (and they did that too) there were kazillion of shivans.
It is clear one single sath could destroy AGTVA ships more quickly and effectivly than a Ravana (ans the shivans would surely have their own losses), yet the shivans still didn't deploy a single one.
They could have allso swarmed teh collie with ravanas.
the point is - collie had nothing to do with the Sathanases staying by the star.

Suppose the Colossus had jumped out but instead of going after it the Shivans just sent two saths to hold each node instead? F**ked up the GTVA pretty badly hasn't it?

 
/// You couldn't know that. The Shivans posses subspace tracking abilties. Why would they blockade the node when they know exactly where the collie went?

As I already stated if the Shivans followed them back to the Epsilon Pegasi or Vega nodes the Colossus would still have died and so would everyone else nearby. Doesn't that qualify as worse?

/// I never said they should jump to another node. Just jump AWAY from BOTH nodes as far as possible. So no - it wouldn't be worse.

[Taristin]

Colossus - Colossal mistake.

[Mefustae]

In a situation such as this one has to ponder the given facts, or complete lack there of;
1)The Captain of the Collossus chose, againt direct orders, to stay in the field of engagement to "buy more time for the Bastion", his EXACT motives will remain a mystery, so whether he did it to stall the Sathanas just those 6 extra seconds, or stayed there so the  Shivans wouldn't have sent another Sathanas to get him, we just don't know...
2)We don't know the motives the Shivans had in creating the Subspace Field around Capella, thus we don't know if all the Sathani were need, ergo, we cannot say exactly whether or not the Shivans would have sent another Sathanas to deal with the Collossus threat has she chosen to jump.
3)We don't know exactly the Fleet Resources the Shivans had in-system at the time, meaning we can't simply say "why didn't the just swarm the Collossus with Ravanas and such", as we don't know if the Shivans even had that many Destroyers. We don't ever get an estimate on the size of the Shivan Armada past that of the 80 Sathani, and thus cannot base any arguements on that of the remaining Shivan Presence in the System beyond that of the 80 Sathani orbiting Capella.
4)The only thing we DO know is that the CO of the Collossus did indeed give the order to his crew to remain in the firing line of the Sathanas. We know that this action cost the lives of 30,000 Crew Members, and it likely saved the Bastion (evidenced by the fact that her mission did indeed succeed). Thus, one can only conclude that, whatever her Captain's motives were, the Collossus did indeed do the right thing in staying there, shown by the fact that the Human & Vasudan races still exist.
So really, someone shooting down another's theories based on their own theory, which is in turn based on other completely unsupported theories (such as saying the Shivans definitely wouldn't have sent another Sath because they probably needed all of them at Capella itself), well, it's just plain not nice. This should be about shooting out our own ideas and building upon them, not putting an idea on the table and simultaneously shooting down another's as completely wrong...finally, my apologies for rambling...

[WMCoolmon]

 /// You couldn't know that. The Shivans posses subspace tracking abilties. Why would they blockade the node when they know exactly where the collie went?

I don't think we ever knew that for certain. Although depending on their sensor capabilities (and depending where it was), they might be able to track it once it emerged from subspace.

Edit: just because the Bastion survived doesn't mean it was a consequence of the Colossus letting itself be destroyed. For all we know, the Shivans may have been worried about the Colossus going through the G-D node and attacking whatever was beyond the third Knossos, and if it had flown off, it would have no longer been considered a threat.

[Charismatic]

They were saying how, the Shivans could deploy an additional Sathi, or more to deal with the Colossus or GTVA,  while fixing the BBQ. I said, 'whos to say they could spare 1-2 Sathi'. Maby they had just enough to spare that one.

I also tied that in to the 'and the shivasn who were left behind and got toasted' discussion, in this topic. I said, maby the extra strain of missing that one Sathi, who was dealing with C, possibly made malfunctions or overheated the Shivan nova weaps drives, which cauzed them to 'stay behind'.

What was hard to understand?

[karajorma]

Actually lets forget about the rest and point to the two biggest arguments as to why the Colossus did the right thing.

1) The mission is called Their Finest Hour not Their Idiotic Mistake

2) Petrach never says a bad thing about their decision to remain behind nor does any other pilot in the GTVA.

Between those two it's pretty obvious that [V] thought that the Colossus' sacrifice was valid and heroic not stupid and short-sighted. Obviously they saw something in it that the rest of you are missing.

Originally posted by Charismatic
What was hard to understand?

Why on Earth you thought it had any bearing on why the captain of the Colossus Who DIDN'T know any of that would choose to jump or not jump out. That's what I found hard to understand.

[Charismatic]

Or they didnt care and its another loop hole...

Those statments i made were not exactly on the C subject, it was on the sub subjects.. of the Shivans and capella.. which were discussed in a page or 2 ago..

It didnt have to do with the C, your right.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by TrashMan
You couldn't know that. The Shivans posses subspace tracking abilties. Why would they blockade the node when they know exactly where the collie went?

They have the resources for it. The Colossus had already escaped once. Why not do it? Most logical thing in the world to do.

Originally posted by TrashMan
I never said they should jump to another node. Just jump AWAY from BOTH nodes as far as possible. So no - it wouldn't be worse.

That's not any better though is it. If they didn't go to the node they'd be trapped in Capella with the entire Shivan fleet even if the Sath didn't come after them.

Not to mention that escaping into Gamma Draconis is actually the Colossus' best chance of surviving a little longer as it appeared as if all the Sathanases had finished arriving and they were right by the node. If open the mission in FRED and re-enable the Colossus' engines you'll notice that in fact that's exactly where it was headed

The Colossus jumping out of Capella actually would probably draw Shivans away from the Bastion too.

[Charismatic]

Originally posted by karajorma

The Colossus jumping out of Capella actually would probably draw Shivans away from the Bastion too.

So that was its best option, IF it knew about the sathys. It would draw them away and be farther away from capella.

But they probably didnt have any idea of supernova, nor any thought of Sathi, beyond the fact that one was roaming twards them. So once again it has two Options.

1) Stay and fight (With or without engins).
2) Run to Gamma Draconis (With Engins).

Whats the chances that the Colossus would be in a better fireing position, if it had engins, by the time the Sathi arrived.

As in, it would go twards the Ravana, and the previous caps, cause it would Not know where the Sathi would come from.
--Would it hapen to be in a better position?
What are the chances of that?

[Dranon]

Personally, i always saw the Collossus as a big waste.  But then the way the missions were done and how the story plays out, we never really see the C do anything that it was really designed for.  We only hear about it in briefings.  I would like to see someone make a mission where the C does exactly what it was designed to do (jump into a fleet and proceed to demolish said fleet).  Maybe i will make one, if i remember how to FRED...

As for the rest of the Discussion, going by the strict facts of how the missions played out, i think the C should not have been used as it was in its final mission.  I would have put it at the end of one of the nodes as part of a defense fleet to respond to any Sathi's paying a visit.  But then, we all know that Command is not exactly well endowed in the Intelligence department...

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Dranon
[T]he way the missions were done and how the story plays out, we never really see the C do anything that it was really designed for.  We only hear about it in briefings.  I would like to see someone make a mission where the C does exactly what it was designed to do (jump into a fleet and proceed to demolish said fleet).

Me too.

As for the rest of the Discussion, going by the strict facts of how the missions played out, i think the C should not have been used as it was in its final mission.  I would have put it at the end of one of the nodes as part of a defense fleet to respond to any Sathi's paying a visit.  But then, we all know that Command is not exactly well endowed in the Intelligence department...

This is one of the smartest things Command did in the whole game.  Read the thread and reread the briefing: "This operation will be a feint to draw the Shivan armada."  If the Colossus had been defending the Bastion, the Sath would have jumped in, nuked the Colossus, nuked the Bastion, and jumped out.  And then the GTVA would be up a creek.

[Dranon]

I'm not saying have the C defend the Bastion, I mean have it out of the system completely.  Granted there would of been more Shivans around to attack everything else,  But i doubt much would have changed.  I always got the impression that the Shivans wanted nothing to do with us and only attacked when we invaded (unknowingly) territory that they were in.  Of course, at this point in the game, we did not really know what they were doing, so i could be wrong about it.

[Charismatic]

Well i agree with goober up there. It was one of the smartest things, to i dont see it as being super good idea. It was the thing to do, yet that also means, as Dranon said, command was never really that smart. So yeah, they did one decent move. Yet they could do a "Draw the Sathi attention and run for your life!" kinda thing to actually save 30, 000 crew. Or.. knowing their imminent fait, let most of the crew excape beforehand, and then run it with a skeliton crew. Maby 10, 000..

[Charismatic]

They went TO vauda prime to Glass it, they went all the way to Sol, with the Lucy, we only ventured into Vasudan systems. Vasudans didnt invade Shivans. Vasudans were there for many many years...

[Dranon]

Originally posted by Charismatic
They went TO vauda prime to Glass it, they went all the way to Sol, with the Lucy, we only ventured into Vasudan systems. Vasudans didnt invade Shivans. Vasudans were there for many many years...

All true, yet they then left us alone for the next 30 years, when obviously they weren't all that far away if they could use knossos portals as they did in FS2.  

I think they tried to conquer us in FS1, failed, and when they found out the Luci was destroyed by these backward races they felt it was better to not give us more chances to learn new tech.

[Taristin]

Bosch opened the portal, though.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Dranon


All true, yet they then left us alone for the next 30 years, when obviously they weren't all that far away if they could use knossos portals as they did in FS2.  

I think they tried to conquer us in FS1, failed, and when they found out the Luci was destroyed by these backward races they felt it was better to not give us more chances to learn new tech.

Who says they weren't far away?

 It might have taken the Shivan main fleet - assuming the FS2 fleet is that - 30 years to reach the GTVA systems  It might be quick to hop between systems, but if you have to travel across tens or hundreds of systems in doing so.......

Incidentally, on other thing about the Colossus (and the fleet to support it) - regardless of how it influenced the Sathani, it also acted to try and draw away the Shivan fleet from the millions of people trying to escape the system.

  If you put the Colossus & it's supporting ships to defend a node, you'd also be attracting Shivans - every Shivan vessel except possibly the Sathani around Capella, assuming one of them wouldn't be retasked -  to that single target; by putting the Colossus and a fleet in a seperate area, the Shivans were faced with a choice between a reasonable threat which was attacking them, or going to the nodes.

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by Goober5000
Me too. This is one of the smartest things Command did in the whole game.  Read the thread and reread the briefing: "This operation will be a feint to draw the Shivan armada."  If the Colossus had been defending the Bastion, the Sath would have jumped in, nuked the Colossus, nuked the Bastion, and jumped out.  And then the GTVA would be up a creek.

Hello? He means positioning the Colossuss and hte fleet and the GD node to waste any incoming shivans.

Even the Sath can't hold out against a collie and a bunch of destroyer, corvettes and cruisers (+****loads of bombers)

they could just pick htem off, one by one as they enter. This defense line wouldn't hold forever, but at least they would take several saths with them, and bought more time for hte civilians to escape!

[Taristin]

You make too many assumptions.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Raa
You make too many assumptions.

I would usually answer him but quite frankly I don't think its worth the effort of typing it.