[karajorma]

The key word in that is minority. At a mere 2% of the population after 40-50 years and now facing a government which is cracking down on immigration I doubt anyone could make a sensible claim that they were taking over.

[Kosh]

Well, I won't speak for Sandwich, but I at least didn't interpret it as any sort of conspiracy.

The way I interpreted that made it sound like HE thought it was some sort of conspiracy. But in addition to that it also makes it sound like muslims coming into England is a bad thing.

[Swamp_Thing]

Remember: not all arabs are islamic, and not all islamics are dark skinned folk. If suddenly, all white brits decided to change religion to muslim, would that still qualify as "islam is conquering the UK from the inside"?
Generalizing like that is both dangerous, silly, and far from the truth. The UK is not being conquered by anyone, anymore than the US is by latinos.  It´s just demographics.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by karajorma
The percentage of atheists in the country has increased at a much larger rate in the same time period. So if we're talking about someone taking over its the atheists.

Nice statement - back it up.

Originally posted by karajorma
Now that the wave of immigrations has ended the amount of muslims isn'#t increasing at any huge rate.

Have you seen the rate at which new mosques are popping up all over?

Originally posted by Kosh
It sounds like they want to take over the world. Which is complete non-sense.

Go read the Koran.

Heck, there's even a Jewish plot to take over the world; His name is Jesus.

Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
Remember: not all arabs are islamic, and not all islamics are dark skinned folk. If suddenly, all white brits decided to change religion to muslim, would that still qualify as "islam is conquering the UK from the inside"?

Thank you for pointing this out (no, I'm not being sarcastic). I have a number of Christian Arab friends here, the well-known Joseph Farah of WorldNetDaily is an Arab-American Christian. While I don't know of any Jews who have converted to Islam, there are no lack of "whites" (have I mentioned how I hate being PC?) who have converted to either Islam or Judaism.

Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
Generalizing like that is both dangerous, silly, and far from the truth. The UK is not being conquered by anyone, anymore than the US is by latinos.  It´s just demographics.

"Just demographics" is what can change the government of a country. Israel, founded as the Jewish Homeland, is facing that dillema, since the Arab-Israeli population is increasing at a greater rate than the Jewish-Israeli populace. "They" predict that within 50 years, the Arab population with outnumber the Jewish one, forming quite a connundrum with the democratic government.

[Kosh]

Nice statement - back it up

Why don't you back yours up?

Go read the Koran.

Then again according to the Bible, slavery is ok, but most christians ignore that.

"They" predict that within 50 years, the Arab population with outnumber the Jewish one, forming quite a connundrum with the democratic government.

So? It sounds to me like you are afraid of them.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Sandwich
Nice statement - back it up.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=293

50 years since the UK opened its borders and began letting muslims in and they've managed to make up 2% of the population as opposed to the 72% who are christian. Big f**king invasion isn't it. At this rate they might be in the majority some time in the year 3 million AD.

It's hard to find data on atheism for the same time period because the Census only included a question on religion in the 2001 census but if we go back 100 years virtually no one was an atheist then. They're 15% now so unless you're claiming that there was a huge convertion to atheism in the first half of the last century it's pretty obvious that the rate at which atheism is growing is faster.

Originally posted by Sandwich
"Just demographics" is what can change the government of a country. Israel, founded as the Jewish Homeland, is facing that dillema, since the Arab-Israeli population is increasing at a greater rate than the Jewish-Israeli populace. "They" predict that within 50 years, the Arab population with outnumber the Jewish one, forming quite a connundrum with the democratic government.

So in other words they're doing to you what the jews did to them in the late 40s. Increasing the population until they have the majority.

Isn't karma wonderful

[aldo_14]

Given that Israel is situated in the middle of the Arab world, I'm scarcely surprised it has more than a few Arabs moving in.

Ands...

Originally posted by Sandwich

Bluntly, you're being taken over by Islam from the inside.
 

Have you even been to the UK recently? (and what the hell has this got to do with anything anyways)  The only way the UK will be 'taken over by Islam' will be if the majority of the population is Islamic.  And in that case, it'd only be fair.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Kosh
Why don't you back yours up?

I'm sorry, that wasn't supposed to be a challenge or anything, it was supposed to be a request. I didn't have time at the time to scour the web for UK statistics.

Originally posted by Kosh
Then again according to the Bible, slavery is ok, but most christians ignore that.

I haven't looked into that aspect with any sort of depth, so don't take my word for it (not like you would anyway), but from what I know, the slavery spoken of in the Bible is more like what a position of servanthood is today. Though I freely admit I could easily be wrong on that.

Originally posted by Kosh
So? It sounds to me like you are afraid of them.

Generally speaking, they've sworn to the destruction of Israel / the Jews. Wouldn't you be just a wee bit concerned? Somehow I don't think that if they get the majority of the government, they'd be inclined to pass up the opportunity.

Originally posted by karajorma


http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=293

50 years since the UK opened its borders and began letting muslims in and they've managed to make up 2% of the population as opposed to the 72% who are christian. Big f**king invasion isn't it. At this rate they might be in the majority some time in the year 3 million AD.

Those are for 2001 stats. Unfortunately the next census is planned for 2011, but the currrent estimates on the Muslim population of the UK put it around 3%. So... from 0% to 2% in 50 years, and from 2% to 3% in 3-4 years? That's one heck of an increase in growth rate (25 years for 1% at the beginning, and now a mere 3-4 years for another percent?).

Originally posted by karajorma
So in other words they're doing to you what the jews did to them in the late 40s. Increasing the population until they have the majority.

Isn't karma wonderful

Yeah, it is. The only problem is that the Jews haven't sworn to destroy Islam or the Arabs or whatever.

Originally posted by aldo_14
Given that Israel is situated in the middle of the Arab world, I'm scarcely surprised it has more than a few Arabs moving in.

My point exactly - there's over a dozen Arab/Muslim nations in the area, and yet they want to live in Israel. Hmm. How come the media never runs stories about the Israeli-Arabs, almost all of whom dread the thought of living under PLO rule as opposed to in Israel, hmm? Because that would ruin the carefully constructed image they've built up of Israel as the oppressor, the big bad guy picking on the helpless Arabs, the Great Satan. Well golly-gee-whiz, I don't FEEL like the Great Satan.

Originally posted by aldo_14
Have you even been to the UK recently? (and what the hell has this got to do with anything anyways)  The only way the UK will be 'taken over by Islam' will be if the majority of the population is Islamic.  And in that case, it'd only be fair.

So there's a Prime Minister Achmed in the UK's future, eh?

After all, it'd only be fair.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Sandwich

My point exactly - there's over a dozen Arab/Muslim nations in the area, and yet they want to live in Israel. Hmm. How come the media never runs stories about the Israeli-Arabs, almost all of whom dread the thought of living under PLO rule as opposed to in Israel, hmm? Because that would ruin the carefully constructed image they've built up of Israel as the oppressor, the big bad guy picking on the helpless Arabs, the Great Satan. Well golly-gee-whiz, I don't FEEL like the Great Satan.

What's that got to do with the demographics of Israel?  People live where they live, it doesn't mean they approve of the place they live, or agree with the government, or that they even want to live there.  Arabs can want to move to a more secular or free democratic state the same as any other ethnicity can.

Originally posted by Sandwich

So there's a Prime Minister Achmed in the UK's future, eh?

After all, it'd only be fair.

Why not?  If he (or she) is the right person for the job, gets voted in, and soforth.  Be pretty damn racist to say I wouldn't accept a Muslim PM (or indeed an Arab, Jewish, etc PM).

EDIT; not to say I'd automatically approve of any PMs policies and soforth.  But on the sheer basis of ethnicity/religion?  It's no more intelligent than not wanting a female PM.  And that's even with Thatcher as an exemplar.

I have no objections to any Muslim (or indeed Arab, although the two are not the same thing) population growth, because I'm not scared of it.  In fact, Scotland needs more immigration, not less, and I couldn't give a **** what the religion of the immigrants are.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Sandwich
Those are for 2001 stats. Unfortunately the next census is planned for 2011, but the currrent estimates on the Muslim population of the UK put it around 3%. So... from 0% to 2% in 50 years, and from 2% to 3% in 3-4 years? That's one heck of an increase in growth rate (25 years for 1% at the beginning, and now a mere 3-4 years for another percent?).

Other reports put the current population at 3%. I went with the census record on the grounds that it's official and not based on random (and therefore possibly inaccurate) sampling. It's not a growth so much as just standard error in the polling sample.

Originally posted by Sandwich
Yeah, it is. The only problem is that the Jews haven't sworn to destroy Islam or the Arabs or whatever.

Nope. Kicking them off of their land was enough for the Jews. Maybe they'll get lucky and just get the same in return.

Don't expect me to weep tears of blood for the jewish portion of the population if that happens. It will be sad but they'll have had 50 more years to mollify the arabs on top of the 50 for which they have continually f**ked up. If they were stupid enough to continue antagonising them even when they were gaining political power that entire time then tough ****.  

Originally posted by Sandwich
So there's a Prime Minister Achmed in the UK's future, eh?

After all, it'd only be fair.

I'd welcome a muslim prime minister just as much as I'd welcome a christian one (i.e not much but life is **** and I consider both as bad as each other) but then I'm not racist.

Sadly lots of people are and I actually doubt that we'll see a black or asian prime minister in my life time.

The fact that there isn't likely to be a Muslim PM any time soon sort of proves your argument false doesn't it?

[kasperl]

Actually, Sandwich, if the Dutch muslim population ever became a majority and we got a PM named Ali, I'd be just has happy has I was now. (Meaning, pretty damned annoyed. Right now we've got a Christian Democrat (the name is odd, but conservative, somewhat right-wing religious party) and honestly, he's a bad PM. I don't care what religion someone has, I care about his views on economics and social stance. A progressive muslim PM would be a LOT better then a conservative Christian one, IMO.)

Before I say anything else, I would like to point out anything I say in this thread is for the sake of the argument, and in no means personally against anyone. If our opinions deferr, that doesn't matter for my personal view of anyone in here. I hope the others feel the same.

Honestly, the first thing I hate is the 'we were here first' argument, simply because it creates so many issues. No-one should be punished for what his or her great-grandfather did. No-one should automtically get any rights from what his or her ancestors did either.

As for a muslim takeover anywhere: Every vote counts as one, and only as one. That's a prime point of a democracy. If a majority decides that they want a Muslim PM, who am I to argue in any other way then a democratic one. If you disagree, create an opposing party and run in the elections for parliament.

About Isrealian opression: The violence has to stop on both sides, so one side will simply have to be the first to show a true dedication to lasting peace. If older attempts for peace failed, the process will simply have to be forced through somehow. Israel makes the process harder by not allowing the Palestinians souvereignity.

I would like to point out I don't see the connection between the bombings and this discussion, though. If a Christian fringe group commited the bombing, would we be discussing a Christian complot?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by kasperl
I would like to point out I don't see the connection between the bombings and this discussion, though.  

There isn't really. This whole muslims in the UK thing should really be split off.

Originally posted by kasperl
If a Christian fringe group commited the bombing, would we be discussing a Christian complot?

Where have you been? We've been discussing a fundementalist christian plot in the US for years now

[kasperl]

Originally posted by karajorma


There isn't really. This whole muslims in the UK thing should really be split off.

Agreed, Sandwich, would you please be so kind to split the two threadds?

Where have you been? We've been discussing a fundementalist christian plot in the US for years now

Forgot 'bout that.....

More seriously, any religious plotting is utter nonsense as far as I'm concerned.

[aldo_14]

IIRC Islam is the fastest growing religion in the UK.  It's also probably the only growing religion in the Uk.  And indeed probably the most discriminated against one; largely because of the false connotation people draw that Muslims are fanatics.

 In the latter case, it's about as a fair a connotation as saying all Christians are fanatics based upon the Lords Resistance Army in Uganda; for every person of any religion who resorts to fanatacism (and not even focusing on the subset who become terrorists or guerillas) you'll find hundreds and thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of perfectly normal people who just want a quiet, peaceful life.

EDIT; Incidentally, one of the tube bombings IIRC took place less than 2 blocks from a mosque.  These kinds of people don't respect anyone who hold anything bar their own narrow band of 'beliefs', after all.

[karajorma]

These people started with terrorism in their own countries against fellow muslims.

[aldo_14]

yup

Incidentally, a nice opinion piece.

[vyper]

Originally posted by aldo_14






Why not?  If he (or she) is the right person for the job, gets voted in, and soforth.  Be pretty damn racist to say I wouldn't accept a Muslim PM (or indeed an Arab, Jewish, etc PM).

EDIT; not to say I'd automatically approve of any PMs policies and soforth.  But on the sheer basis of ethnicity/religion?  It's no more intelligent than not wanting a female PM.  And that's even with Thatcher as an exemplar.

I have no objections to any Muslim (or indeed Arab, although the two are not the same thing) population growth, because I'm not scared of it.  In fact, Scotland needs more immigration, not less, and I couldn't give a **** what the religion of the immigrants are.

Okay, now you're drifting away from my views and into rampant stupidity. It's not that long ago a large group of muslims declared they wanted Islam to be the primary force behind UK law and policy. Can you imagine what would happen with an Islamic PM? Aye... Think that one through please.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by vyper


Okay, now you're drifting away from my views and into rampant stupidity. It's not that long ago a large group of muslims declared they wanted Islam to be the primary force behind UK law and policy. Can you imagine what would happen with an Islamic PM? Aye... Think that one through please.

And who says that group has anything to do with this hypothetical muslim PM? Even if he does who says he'll listen?

Blair is a stauch christian so shall we start assuming that he'll do anything the Archbishop of Canterbury tells him to do?

[vyper]

Actually Blair isn't. Blair was a devout "I don't go to church really" guy right up until he was elected, and suddenly he was joining Cherie and Mass every chance he got.

[karajorma]

The fact is that lots of christians want to introduce christian law and policies in the UK too. Does that mean we should never have a christian leader?

The fact is as long as you choose a moderate it doesn't matter which faith he has and if you choose an extremist, well it doesn't matter which faith he has there either.

Simple fact is that it's the level of tolerance that is important not which faith the person believes in.