Author Topic: 3 Bombs go off in London  (Read 15450 times)

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Offline IceFire

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3 Bombs go off in London
When I woke up this morning and saw the first images of blood soaked people on the TV, I had assumed there was another violent clash between protesters at the G8 summit and police.  But that thought faded quickly as the actual news set in.  Although 911 shocked me, the London bombings have made me more angry than shocked (I skipped being shocked).

We all knew they would strike again but I had assumed that it would be US soil and not UK soil although that was a very real possibility.

All I can say is that I hope they find the bastards who did this.  If they come quietly then we'll give them a trial but I'd much rather have them fight it out and let the armed forces blow the **** out of them.

We do have to separate the generic from the specific here.  We have to target terrorists in terrrorist networks...not the common man on the street be he muslim or christian or jewish or whatever.

As my anger fades...I'm just quietly thankful that the death toll is not higher than it is and I very much respect the resolve of Londoners.  Thoughts from Canada are with you.
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Offline Taristin

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3 Bombs go off in London
Quote
Originally posted by IceFire
Although 911 shocked me, the London bombings have made me more angry than shocked.  We all knew they would strike again but I had assumed that it would be US soil and not UK soil although that was a very real possibility.


Excuse me for sounding like a prick, but you are more angry that the UK got bombed than the US? :wtf:
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Offline IceFire

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3 Bombs go off in London
Quote
Originally posted by Raa


Excuse me for sounding like a prick, but you are more angry that the UK got bombed than the US? :wtf:

MMmm no thats not what I was saying.

I was saying that when 911 happened I did go into shock.  I was totally shocked at the level of destruction and the scale of the attack.  I was angry later...but shocked for a good many hours first (maybe days).  With the bombings in London I wasn't so much shocked as just straight to very angry.

You know, the various stages of absorbing something like this. Shock, anger, sadness, and then resolve.

I was also expecting the next terror strike to be on US soil and not on UK soil.  That was my guess.  I was wrong.  I'm not angry that it was on one or the other...I'm angry at the attack - period.  Innocent lives were lost today and I am angry.

Maybe I should further break down the paragraphs so we can separate my emotional response to two separate attacks from whatever it was being interpreted as...

Excuse me for being a prick as well but since when did expressing emotional reaction on here somehow lead to bizzare innuendo about being angry over who should be attacked?  Errm....thats definately :wtf:

Please explain...I'm very confused.
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Offline Taristin

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3 Bombs go off in London
I was just asking because that's how it read. And since it seemed so uncharacteristic of you, I figured I'd ask. *shrugs*
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Offline redmenace

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3 Bombs go off in London
First, may I say to Karajorma, IPAndrews, Flipside, Kalfireth, Diamond Geezer and the rest from England my deepest and sincerest prayers and condolences goes out to Britain and its people.

Quote
Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
Damn you Bush, and damn you Blair. You are just as guilty as those who pressed the trigger today. I hope you all rott in hell.
:blah:
Now on the same token(don't take this the wrong way or me sticking my thumb in your eye), I am not sure if you are refering to strictly Iraq, but I should mention this is not strictly related to Iraq but the actions in Afganistan as well.

@Kalfireth, Sorry this happened on your birthday.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 12:14:20 am by 887 »
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Offline Clave

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3 Bombs go off in London
You can't stop terrorists attacking civilian targets without imposing a totalitarian security regime, and nobody wants that.

This was no 9/11, or Madrid, but it was very personal and shocking to us.  It would be nice to think there was a comforting solution like sending the SAS to deal with it, but sadly the only way to end terrorism is by negotiation....
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Offline NGTM-1R

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3 Bombs go off in London
Except of course that you cannot negotiate with a pyschopath...
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Offline Kosh

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3 Bombs go off in London
I heard an analyst on the news say that the attacks in europe are just "conventional terrorist attacks on steroids" and that they were probably planning something "very big" for the US.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was right.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline karajorma

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3 Bombs go off in London
Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r
Except of course that you cannot negotiate with a pyschopath...


But you can keep removing the leadership until you get to someone more reasonable.

I can't speak for the rest of the Brits but quite frankly I think what we should do is finish what we started in Afghanistan. After removing the Taliban we just seemed to give up and concentrate on a stupid, ill concieved war in Iraq.

What they should have done was send those troops into Afghanistan and found Bin Laden. He may only have been a figurehead to the terrorists rather than the leader the media want to portray him as but capturing him would have done more in the war against terror than the Iraq war ever achieved.
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3 Bombs go off in London
Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r
That was perhaps the most singularly idiotic statement I have ever heard...which is no mean feat.


Thank you. That is kind of you. :rolleyes:

Obviouslly, some of you don´t yet see that what happened today could have been avoided.  Unless you consider what happened today as "colateral damage", and a "necessary evil for a greater good", i cannot fathom any possible way where you can equate Bush and Blair out of the responsible roster for today´s events.

In case some of you forgot, the war on Afghanistan and Iraq was supposed to rid the world of a terrorist threat, yet all i see is that those actions have pumped fresh blood into it. The taliban are still there, Osama is still there, the insurgence in Iraq is still there. So just what have they acomplished? Nothing, i say. Nothing, except more death and destruction.
Let me say it in no uncertain terms, that i see Bush and Blair on the same plane, where blame is assigned. At least i am not a hipocrit, who sees only those who strap explosives to their chest as worthy of endless damnation in hell. Yes they are guilty, yes they should burn, as anyone here has already agreed on. However, leaving them to take that punishment alone is leaving the door open for further attacks.
And untill you the public, realize this, we are going to see this happen day in day out.
For every action, there is an opposite reaction.  And untill certain parties stop f**king around with other people, there will always be madmen lining up for a bloody payback.
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Offline redmenace

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3 Bombs go off in London
kara, at the risk of this turning into a debate, the nature of the beast is that there is no central leadership or set hiearchy. I don't think that you could remove the leadership of a terrorist group and expect to have someone more "moderate" take their place. At this point if you remove or kill someone there is always going to be someone to take their place. Not only that but you make a martyr out of the former leader. I once heard an Political Scientist from John Hopkins say that Osama Bin Laden has reached the point of God hood in the eyes of the radical muslim world. Removing him for instance wouldn't help anything and might make things worse. The point is removing leadership of terrorist groups is not going to do anything.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 02:50:37 am by 887 »
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Offline redmenace

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3 Bombs go off in London
Quote
Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
For every action, there is an opposite reaction.  And untill certain parties stop f**king around with other people, there will always be madmen lining up for a bloody payback.
Even if you stop "****ing around," doesn't mean that they will stop attacking. Secondly, apart from Iraq, I guess you would have US do absolutly nothing in response to what happened 9/11/2001?

Like I said before this is revenge by them not only for Iraq but Afganistan and they will not cease until their appetites for blood is quenched. Which meanse the rest of Europe is a target.

And if you want to blame Bush and Blair, you should also blame every other Nation's Leader that took part in the Afganistan conflict.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 03:08:47 am by 887 »
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Offline karajorma

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3 Bombs go off in London
Quote
Originally posted by redmenace
kara, at the risk of this turning into a debate, the nature of the beast is that there is no central leadership or set hiearchy. I don't think that you could remove the leadership of a terrorist group and expect to have someone more "moderate" take their place


I was basically saying that if you remove enough of the leaders eventually you'll get to someone willing to talk (or run out of terrorists). Basically that's the only thing you can do. Capture and imprison the bastards until they run out of terrorists. You can't leave them free and you can't kill them or you make them martyrs. Removing them or isolating them politically is the only option left.

Then while you're removing the leaders you have to take steps to remove the reasons why people join up with the terrorists in the first place.

One of the biggest mistakes the west ever made was not stepping up with a Marshall Plan for Afghanistan after the soviet pull out. Yet when we were given a second bite at it we made the same stupid mistake yet again and ignored Afghanistan to embark on an idiotic military adventure in Iraq.

Had Afghanistan been handled correctly we might have been able to get some support from the muslim world. Instead what little sympathy the muslim world had for the US after 9\11 was squandered in starting the unnecessary war in Iraq.


One thing I do agree with you Red. This isn't just about Iraq or even Afghanistan. But Iraq made the terrorists stronger by giving them a very visible example of the west being against Islam and quite frankly Bush and Blair were idiots to give that to them. Instead of doing things to help things get better both of them just made things worse.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 03:52:49 am by 340 »
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Offline Blaise Russel

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3 Bombs go off in London
I think the basic idea being conveyed is that the gung-ho rah-rah-rah actions of the war hawks has exacerbated an existing situation.

The fundamental issue is a clash of culture; Western consumerism and liberalism is encroaching on the good ol' Islamic fundamentalism that these people like so much. There's not much we can really do to stop this, unless we want to attempt to turn back the tide of globalisation by cutting our own nose off.

Given that this conflict is relatively inevitable, how do we deal with it?

(God, I hate that sort of question. Blargh.)

This is where Bush and Blair and all that come in. After all, we could have planned attacks and contemplated reactions and that sort of thing, created a well-thought-out strategy that would have ended or minimised this 'war' and its casualties. However, we did not; instead, we let a group of modern-day cowboys shout out "WOOHOO! YEEHAW! LET'S STIR UP SOME SH|T!"

Almost, anyway. And the problem with charging into situations and carrying out irrelevant interventions like the relatively unnecessary Iraq war and its pursuit of non-existent WMDs and terrorist links is that it really, really messes up the swamp. Lots of foul air comes to the surface; lots of young people, incensed at big, fatass, arrogant America, source of all those things that utterly disregard and destroy their most sacred concepts, walking into their country and just presuming that they can tell them how to do things.

Then, when somebody asks them if they want to blow up a train, they think of the Coalition of the Willing and say 'Okay.' I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that the Iraq war, which has accomplished little save destabilise a region and impose democracy from above (which I do hope works, though I suspect it won't be as simple as that), has pissed off a lot of people and made terror attacks for the Al-Qaeda 'group' easier to carry out.

I mean, come on, people: it's basic cyclic causality. You charge in to save your oilfields, they declare holy war. They fly a plane into a skyscraper, you invade a country (or two). It's like a gang war: the Al-Qaeda Crew does a drive-by on some of the Neo-Con Hood, so the Neo-Cons firebomb one of Al-Qaeda's houses.

And you know what pisses me off? It's always the people in the middle who die - the people in the WTC, the people in Iraq, the people in London. You pro-war types sit on your sofas and declare war from your living room, and bin Laden and his cronies hang out in his cave and make big speeches about dying for the greater good and pleasing Allah and all that, but you never pay for your actions. Innocents die, and we all keep making the same mistakes.

Instead of being like certain American news stations and indulging our sense of drama with big Churchill-esque speeches and swearing revenge to the last, and just adding another level into the cycle, another excuse for a higher death toll... we should be stopping, thinking and trying to sort this out once and for all. Instead of invading Iraq again, let's a) find and prosecute the perpetrators, b) tone down interventionism in this 'hostile' territory, and c) make the advancement of Western culture so subtle and low-key that the fundamentalists are lulled into sleep and only wake up when it's too late and everybody else thinks that human life is more important than a ****ing book.

You know, because, short of genocide, there's no zerg rush capable of wiping out an entire culture.



I'm not particularly good at being a drama queen with exciting statements of how I'll stand firm with London and we Britons shall never be cowed or whatever, nor am I good at pretending utter despair or feeling sadness for thirty-seven people I don't know, nor at throwing my balls around and screaming defiance at Al-Qaeda, so I'll just say that I am deeply concerned about this incident and feel a mental sympathy for thirty-seven families who won't be seeing one of their own tonight because of somebody else's war, and that I wish more people had thought about this before taking leaps into the unknown.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 04:03:12 am by 1432 »

 
3 Bombs go off in London
Quote
Originally posted by redmenace
And if you want to blame Bush and Blair, you should also blame every other Nation's Leader that took part in the Afganistan conflict.


Oh, but i do! But the key players here are the US and UK.
Let´s remember that islamic fundamentalist terrorism started only 40 years ago. And basically it was a backlash to the actions of the western nations upon the poor nations of the middle east and north africa. We could go way back in time, and say it began with the crusades. But for for intended purposes, what we know now as the fundamentalist problem started in the 20th century.
We could follow the roots to the WWI, when the brits promised the arabs a nation of their own, and then backed down. Then we could go to the Israel affair. Again the arabs got the short end of the stick. Then we have the countless coups, supported by the US. Like Mossadeq´s overthrowing, and the Xá´s rule in Iran. Then we also have the Suez canal crisis, where the brits, french and israeli formed a nice little plot to control the canal from the hands of the egyptians. And there´s the israeli-arab wars. And countless other times, where arabs got f**ked in the ass by the west.
Really, it´s a wonder they didn´t start to fight back sooner.
Islamic Terrorism is a byproduct of western prepotence. There is no way around it. And when we attacked Afghanistan and Iraq, we gave them yet another powerfull reason to backlash at us.
There is only one way to stop terrorism, wich to stop ALL actions for wich they are responding to. Get out of the region, and stop f**king about with their lives. Then maybe, just maybe, there is a chance to sit down and talk. Otherwise, we will continue to see this happen, day after night.
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Offline redmenace

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3 Bombs go off in London
Lets not forget the era of colonialism, too. I honestly think africa is extremely bitter towards the west for basically ****ing up their continent. And mix that with the fact that Islam is spreading quickly down there and you have a powder keg ready to blow.
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Offline Sigma957

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3 Bombs go off in London
Indeed, Africa is a hotspot that  is being overlooked by most major governments because the africans are fighting each other. When/if their attention is drawn elsewhere thats when the **** will hit the fan.
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Offline aldo_14

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3 Bombs go off in London
As everyone here should know, I was as much against the Iraq war as anyone else.  I have no doubt it contributed to support behind these types of fundamentalists, and it may very well be what inspired yesterdays particular bunch of nutcases to do this.

However, if we focus on blaming Iraq, we risk excusing these people of responsibility for what they did.  There are many, many people on this board and across the world who disagree with or even hate the foreign policy of the Western world - but the vast majority don't blow people up.

I agree 100% with Kara over Afghanistan; that presented a chance to work towards redeeming our countries in the eyes of many Arabs - we should have stayed there and rebuilt that countries infrastructure to be one we'd be proud to live in, not abandoned it for a trip to pick another fight.

My view has always been that you need to tackle terrorism with a carrot-and-stick approach; use the carrot (dialogue, diplomacy, aid) to stop the public opinion that aids terrorists and turns waverers into bombers, and the stick (police actions, military in exceptional circumstance - terrorism is not a military but crime issue) for the die-hards and leaders who cannot be swayed. Too much of the carrot and you leave yourself looking a soft target to the hard-boiled nutters, too much of the stick and you mobilise people against you.

As it is, I think the stick has been grossly overused.

Other stuff;

Fox news are the first to try and link the attacks to Iraq (I've been doing a bit of news channel sweeping today, curious as to biases and differences of coverage; so far BBC is the most measured and intelligent IMO).

@Lib people are pissed off at Bush & co because they've been waging a sort of 'bully doctrine' of seeking to attack possible threats.  The US government has never shown any interest in international co-operation or compromise with countries that disagree with them, and has sought to ostracise the 'old europe' (not my phrase) countries and much of the UN as a result of this in the Iraq war buildup.  Put simply - no-one likes a bully.

EDIT; also, Charles Clarke is now saying that 'The question on ID cards, but also on any other security measure actually, is on the balance of the ability to deal with particular threats and civil liberties, does a particular measure help or hinder it?'.  So they're already working up to sacrifice the things we are told terrorists want to destroy.

 

Offline Liberator

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3 Bombs go off in London
Quote
Originally posted by Clave
... but sadly the only way to end terrorism is by negotiation....


Study history, every time Hitler made an aggressive move from 1938 until late into 1939, Europe's answer to his aggression was negotiation and appeasment.

Appeament does little but strengthen the enemy and make you look weak, if not actually doing so.
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Offline dan87uk

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3 Bombs go off in London
:( sorry about my delayed reply to this thread.....but my uncle was one of the ones caught up in the bombs, we cant get in contact with him so i havnt been on much....we fear the worst.....grrr i wont those ****ers who did this to either be caught or killed and bought to justice :mad:
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