Author Topic: Collosal Blunder...or not?  (Read 13231 times)

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Offline Shrike

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
Today's topic is our favorite supership, the GTVA Colossus.

The general sentiment is that the Colossus was a big waste of time, energy and money.  Now, was it really?  Note that this discussion is not about the tactis of the GTVA or their competence, and also assumes the Colossus is fully operational at the time of it's deployment.

Firstly, we'll look at the cost of the Colossus and compare it to other GTVA ships.  As an example, the cost of constructing an Orion 'far outweighs the cost of paying its crew for 3 years.'  This was during the T-V war, so obviously advances such as beam cannons haven't been factored in.  However, there's no mention of how big the crew of an Orion is.  For arguments sake, I am going to assume that the newer Hecate, with it's crew complement of 10,000 is roughly of the same cost relative to it's crew.

So for some low/medium/high values with wages arbitrarily set at 25k per person, we come out with:
3.5 years worth - 0.875 billion credits
5 years worth - 1.25 billion credits
10 years worth - 2.5 billion credits

For the purposes of this debate I am going to use the median value of 1.25 billion credits

Now, if we go and look at the Colossus we get a couple different values that we can use to attempt to get a rough cost.
- HP = 10x Hecate
- Hull volume > 12 Lucifer destroyers
- Firepower > 5 Orions
- General FRED 'impression' of size relative to the Hecate.

So after looking at this, I'm going to provide three possible values, knowing that generally speaking, weaponry and electronics contribute a greater proportion of the final cost than does structure.  However, the Colossus, due to it's sheer size, likely has a bit of a 'cost multiplier' if you will.

Low:  8x cost = 10 billion credits
Medium:  12x cost = 15 billion credits
High:  15x cost = 18.75 billion credits

Now, it must be remembered that this is just cost to construct a Colossus class ship.  It does not cover R&D, something which is even harder to pin down, and is also rarely for just one specific purpose.  In all likelyhood, R&D done for the Colossus was later applied in the Hecates as well.  So for these purposes it will be ignored.

Now, even 10 billion may seem like a lot, however, simply as a fighter carrier the Colossus carries 4x the fighter complement of a Hecate.

Therefore, it starts to look like this:

4 Hecates = 5 billion credits
1 Colossus = 15 billion credits

Still 3x the cost but not so bad.  Then we can start to factor crew in.  

4 Hecates = 4x 10,000 crew -> 1 billion per year
1 Colossus = 30,000 crew -> 0.75 billion per year

At 20 years, it looks like this:

4 Hecates = 25 billion credits
1 Colossus = 30 billion credits

Much closer, in fact.  Obviously, if the cost of a Hecate is higher/lower compared to a Colossus and also relative to their crew salaries, it'd grossly throw this out.

Now, you might be saying "well 4 Hecates are still cheaper."

A Colossus in a fleet engagement is 2.5 times as survivable as all 4 Hecates put together, and is effectively invulnerable to fighter strikes, and nearly immune to all but the largest fleets.  It can also increase it's firepower to incredibly high level (High Noon) at the cost of significant component damage.  However, even at default the Colossus design can more than fend for itself even against an entire enemy fleet.  Tactically, the Colossus is more efficient, but is also less flexible on a strategic level, due to it's size.  It can also only be present in one system, while 4 Hecates can cover 4 seperate systems.  Thus Colossus deployment necessitates a different set of tactical and strategic conditions than one/several Hecates.

So there you have it.  Over the short term, constructing a Colossus is very expensive, however, that can also be spread out over at least 10 fiscal years.  When in actual service, it is essentially unkillable except due to extenuating circumstances.
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Offline Grey Wolf

Collosal Blunder...or not?
My personal belief is they should have used the Collossus to blockade the unclosed jump node instead of sending it in as a distraction. It's a good ship in the right circumstances but against a Sathanas multiple stikes simultaneously by destroyers would make more sense. As it's been said many times before, th Collossus was designed for fighting many smaller ships/Lucifer not a ship that's an equal in size.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 
Collosal Blunder...or not?
 
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
When in actual service, it is essentially unkillable except due to extenuating circumstances.

read --> Shivans  

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His personality!

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Offline Shrike

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
Sathanas:  See Outside Context Problem

Outside Context Problem:  Something that most civilizations encounter only once, in the same way a sentence encounters a period.

And there you have it....NOTHING could have stopped a fully operational Sathanas.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 
Collosal Blunder...or not?
Alpha 1 did  

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Temporal Mechanics
What does Kazan use for birth control?
His personality!

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Offline Shrike

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
with the help of the Colossus...

And if that Sathanas had really been escorted properly (I didn't really want to discuss tactics but...) he wouldn't have gotten close enough.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Warlock

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
 
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
Sathanas:  See Outside Context Problem

Outside Context Problem:  Something that most civilizations encounter only once, in the same way a sentence encounters a period.

And there you have it....NOTHING could have stopped a fully operational Sathanas.

Did you mean Sathanas or Colossus couldn't be stopped when fully operational?



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Offline Nico

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
If you take anything else than a sathanas, I stay assured that nothing can stop the colossus. You would require a huge fleet, with multiple very big capships (Orions), and it's hardly possible to deploy such a fleet. And then don't forget that the Colossus should not be deployed on it's own ( I always found that weird that it did not have a proper escort). And when you have all your big fleet deployed to take one a single one, prepare yourself to be severly outflanked by other ships...

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Offline Styxx

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
You must also remember one of the most significant factors on the approval of the Colossus Project: the economical repercussions. Though the project was classified, it involves several contractors, who obviously subcontracted other companies and individuals, generating astounding amounts of revenue and financial movement on an economy that was on the verge of collapse - right after it's two main centers had been "removed": Earth and Vasuda Prime.

It played a major role on the reconstruction of the Terran and Vasudan societies, and served as motivation and proving ground for the development of new technologies - beyond already working as a huge motivator for the general people of the GTVA. Knowing that you have a six kilometer long ship armed to the teeth ready to defend you in case of a threat can surely boost morale. And in comparison, it was way more powerful than anything the GTVA had ever seen up to it's concept. It wasn't designed just to defeat the Lucifer - it was designed to do way more than that. The problem was just that the Shivans already had something better than it.

And on another note, who knows if, had the GTVA built something bigger and better than the Colossus, the Shivans would have deployed better weapons to counteract it?
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Offline Shrike

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
Yeah....but remember the project was classified level Rho.  So there was the economic benefit of building the infrastructure, etc, but at the same token, before it was built, people didn't know it was under construction.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline morris13

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
 
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
Sathanas:  See Outside Context Problem

Outside Context Problem:  Something that most civilizations encounter only once, in the same way a sentence encounters a period.

I think we've been reading the same books by Ian Banks =)
If it aint broke, break it!

 

Offline Shrike

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
So you recognize my title, hmmmm?
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Nico

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
If the shivans can make a fleet of 80 or so sathanas (and I doubt all sath were here, why would they risk to sacrify all their juggernauts?), I bet shivans can (and have) make things you don't even imagine, otherwise, they just have countless sathanas (one or the other, please choose   )

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venom2506
Member of the Robotech mod for FS2

and of Hidden Terror, the Shivan campaign

and My own page
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Ace

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
Actually, the Colossus was not classified in the sense that you're assuming here.

Khonsu II created a proclamation to the entire GTVA over the creation of the Colossus.

Every man, woman, and child in the alliance knew of the vessel since many primary spaceyard systems *literally* became workhorses for the Colossus project. (Vasuda, Antares, Beta Aquilae)

What *was* classified level Rho was the state of completion of the project, the spaceyard locations, component devices, etc.

Everyone knew there was a Colossus, they knew the billions of credits poured into it, they didn't know where it was being built. (it could have been one of dozens of spaceyards in Vasuda, Antares, Beta Aquilae, Alpha Centuari, etc.)

The Colossus more than likely was transferred between spaceyards often to ensure it's safety from sabotauge, terrorism, and in the final months of it's spaceborne testing, the NTF.

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Offline phreak

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
Could the Colossus be able to punch though lucy shielding?  I've been wondering that for a while and decided to ask that.  What happens if it doesn't?
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Offline Styxx

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
It's toast!...
Probably away. Contact through email.

 

Offline morris13

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
 
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
So you recognize my title, hmmmm?

Maybe I should start building models for Culture ships... > A GCU would easily be a match for a Sathanas, or even a few. Especially since they have shields. Effector Arrays, CAM dusting, my my. =)
If it aint broke, break it!

 

Offline Shrike

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
Pah.....A GCU would walk through everything that the FS universe could throw at it, never mind sending a ROU or militarized GSV.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Styxx

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
I have no idea of what you're talking about...
Probably away. Contact through email.

 

Offline morris13

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Collosal Blunder...or not?
 
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
Pah.....A GCU would walk through everything that the FS universe could throw at it, never mind sending a ROU or militarized GSV.

Yeah.. but watching the Sleeper Service deploy its instant fleet (just add water) in FS2 would be pretty awesome =)
If it aint broke, break it!