[Shade]

Nice timing. Gonna try to make time to watch that.

[aldo_14]

Nice timing. Gonna try to make time to watch that.

Yeah, I think the Royal Society is gearing up to actively counter the creationist myth as a result of some worrying things being taught in faith schools.  It's pretty well hidden, even internally, but the current government has done a good job ****ing up the science curriculum by allowing academy/faith schools that teach this ill-founded and factually wrong rubbish.  It's sad that in this day in age science is having to defend itself from attack, when we're surrounded by the benefits of human learning.

[Shade]

Well, it sure does seem like it's a fight that needs to be fought by now. At first I was just hoping it would die down once people realized the inherent sillyness of the whole thing, but here we are still. If this thing sticks, then what next? Renaming all the days since they've got 'heathen' names? Surely any good christian can't be caught uttering names based on the nordic gods.

Of course, over a long time frame, evolution (ironically...) will sort it all out. The people who deny science will be mostly stuck with what they have, and those who embrace it will move on. Give it a couple of millenia and the first group will be effectively in the stone age compared to the second

[aldo_14]

Well, it sure does seem like it's a fight that needs to be fought by now. At first I was just hoping it would die down once people realized the inherent sillyness of the whole thing, but here we are still. If this thing sticks, then what next? Renaming all the days since they've got 'heathen' names? Surely any good christian can't be caught uttering names based on the nordic gods.

Of course, over a long time frame, evolution (ironically...) will sort it all out. The people who deny science will be mostly stuck with what they have, and those who embrace it will move on. Give it a couple of millenia and the first group will be effectively in the stone age compared to the second

The problem is that the inherent silliness of it all is based on what sound like common sense, even sound arguements - that is, until you actually learn the most basic bit about the subject.  Because they've succeded in both attacking scientific teaching and mischaracterising evolution & life (the use of 'obvious design' and 'chance' to describe biology here being a clear example of that misinformation in action), they've worked to soften the ground for creationism. It's a strategem that aims to posit the 'debate' (when on a factual, educated perspective there simply is no debate) by systematically lying about the alternative, in order to strengthen a shoddy position.  We've already seen both Zman and Charismatic give reasons that are based on badly-done and faulty research (performed purely to try and claw some results to support creationism), and which are disproven both by weight of scientific evidence and common sense (the Great Flood managing to sort pollen and plant specimens in disparate climatological groups?), but because someone has crammed it into them, they're unwilling to actually look at the evidence with a rational, scientific eye.

 It's not unlike getting someone who knows no maths atall, and telling them that pi=3 because it's in the bible, and that all the myriad of figures directly proving that wrong are all aetheist lies(as an aside, there are actually a fair number of ancient civillisations even predating the bible that had a more accurate value of pi).  But if you begin rejecting all the evidence for evolution, then you reject the methodology involved.  and then you reject all science, and this computer becomes magic, and we all go back to living in caves and praying for lightning to hit dry bush so we can sit by a fire.

[Turambar]

all this would be great if Zman were to read it all and take it into proper consideration

however, his version of faith will cause him to reject it instantly, call it satan, and deem it evil.

its really quite annoying

[aldo_14]

all this would be great if Zman were to read it all and take it into proper consideration

however, his version of faith will cause him to reject it instantly, call it satan, and deem it evil.

its really quite annoying

Intelligent design of stupid people, I suppose.

[Ace]

I have always found the fixation of fundies on C14 dating to be quite humorous. Especially since the radiodating used for most old fossils is tied to Potassium->Argon dating. (which doesn't have issues of contamination that carbon dating does)

Even then, calibrated radiocarbon dates are very accurate as you're taking into account all of these variables. (which any self-respecting scientist does)

Of course even if we go on the claims that carbon dating is 60% inaccurate (which it's not) something 60,000 years old that's 60% inaccurate is still older than 6,000-8,000 years

[aldo_14]

I have always found the fixation of fundies on C14 dating to be quite humorous. Especially since the radiodating used for most old fossils is tied to Potassium->Argon dating. (which doesn't have issues of contamination that carbon dating does)

Even then, calibrated radiocarbon dates are very accurate as you're taking into account all of these variables. (which any self-respecting scientist does)

Of course even if we go on the claims that carbon dating is 60% inaccurate (which it's not) something 60,000 years old that's 60% inaccurate is still older than 6,000-8,000 years

I think the date skew for carbon dating is quite well known, anyways, at least to about 9,000 years (thanks to tree ring records that can be used to compare).  It makes me want to cry, really.  I enjoy these little debates, but the other side is that i'm going to have to spend most of my replies on the topic refuting basic errors that the most perfunctory google search would correct.  And invitably the replies from the likes of Charismatic (wasn't that a Pokemon?) will come, thanks to time zones, when I am either in bed, or at work.

[ZmaN]

I'm enjoying the thread. It's been a long time since HLP hosted a good Evolution vs. Religious-Nonsense-Posing-As-Science Thread.

shut your fricken mouth....
Ill post the science pages when Im done with school.
And if youre asking why I havent posted it yet, its because i have a life beyond HLP..
And everything that was in the article I was gunna write is in the science book so theres no use in writing it. you can just read the pages yourself...  Of course, youre gunna make up some other bullcrap "the books wrong, im right, your stupid!!!" kinda arguments.  go ahead. Im ready for it..

[aldo_14]

I'm enjoying the thread. It's been a long time since HLP hosted a good Evolution vs. Religious-Nonsense-Posing-As-Science Thread.

shut your fricken mouth....
Ill post the science pages when Im done with school.
And if youre asking why I havent posted it yet, its because i have a life beyond HLP..
And everything that was in the article I was gunna write is in the science book so theres no use in writing it. you can just read the pages yourself...  Of course, youre gunna make up some other bullcrap "the books wrong, im right, your stupid!!!" kinda arguments.  go ahead. Im ready for it..

what, you mean rational arguements as evidenced by observation, experimentation and the scientific process?  y'know, the same process that means your computer, electricity, internet connection, lights, plumbing system, healthcare.......... etc work.

Note; the scientific process is not picking the evidence and experimental methods to produce the results you want, not does it involve ignoring simple and documented fact.  This is why it's so easy to pick apart creationist arguements; they have to ignore not just years but centuries of scientific knowledge to even begin to work, and the only way they can do so is to make fundamental mistakes like not understanding things like evolution.  I notice every time you've posted an arguement it's been rapidly demonstrated to be false and scientficially proven so, and you've not been able to counter or even elucidate on the 'theories' you claim vindicate you.  Could that be perhaps because you've been fed a bunch of impressive sounding buzzwords intended to destroy the perceived aetheism (something the Vatican doesn't percieve, oddly enough) of science, because your church believes you're naive enough to accept their statements without looking into the factual basis?

And, um, if the book contradicts a myriad of scientific knowledge - it is wrong.  I'm betting that, if you give the name of this 'science' book and the author, we'll have a little peek and find it's written and funded by a creationist lobby group, and includes erroneous results that have never been submitted to nor would pass peer scrutiny.

[Janos]

I'm enjoying the thread. It's been a long time since HLP hosted a good Evolution vs. Religious-Nonsense-Posing-As-Science Thread.

shut your fricken mouth....
Ill post the science pages when Im done with school.
And if youre asking why I havent posted it yet, its because i have a life beyond HLP..
And everything that was in the article I was gunna write is in the science book so theres no use in writing it. you can just read the pages yourself...  Of course, youre gunna make up some other bullcrap "the books wrong, im right, your stupid!!!" kinda arguments.  go ahead. Im ready for it..

By the way, what do you think of gravitation? How much basis does it have, compared to evolutionary theories?

[Flipside]

Of course, youre gunna make up some other bullcrap "the books wrong, im right, your stupid!!!" kinda arguments.  go ahead. Im ready for it..

You know, funny you should say that, considering pro-creationism is basically saying 'Evolution is wrong, we're right, and biologists are stupid!'.

[Ford Prefect]

That's because religion tends to be comprised of philosophically sterile arguments. The constant reference to a divine order is categorically self-justifying, and thus is impervious to any possible argument against it. In that respect it's ironically similar to solipsism, which I'm sure any religious fundamentalist would condemn as a heretical notion.

[karajorma]

Of course, youre gunna make up some other bullcrap "the books wrong, im right, your stupid!!!" kinda arguments.  go ahead. Im ready for it..

You know, funny you should say that, considering pro-creationism is basically saying 'Evolution is wrong, we're right, and biologists are stupid!'.

Funnily enough that's actually all ID was too when all was said and done.

[aldo_14]

Of course, youre gunna make up some other bullcrap "the books wrong, im right, your stupid!!!" kinda arguments.  go ahead. Im ready for it..

You know, funny you should say that, considering pro-creationism is basically saying 'Evolution is wrong, we're right, and biologists are stupid!'.

I'm not sure it was as sophisticated as that.
Funnily enough that's actually all ID was too when all was said and done.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

shut your fricken mouth....
Ill post the science pages when Im done with school.
And if youre asking why I havent posted it yet, its because i have a life beyond HLP..
And everything that was in the article I was gunna write is in the science book so theres no use in writing it. you can just read the pages yourself...  Of course, youre gunna make up some other bullcrap "the books wrong, im right, your stupid!!!" kinda arguments.  go ahead. Im ready for it..

Lol?

edited for flaminess.

[Nuclear1]

Keep it civil, all of you. Personal attacks aren't necessary.

[Kosh]

Sometimes I am glad that I live in a country where we don't have debates like this.......


On the other hand I miss them because they are so much fun. I find it interesting that, despite all of the benefits of science and technology, people still attack it as being evil (especially in America). They do it because science shows us just how small, weak, and pathetic we really are.

Here is part of a website that talks about this kind of thing.

http://www.plesiosaur.com/creationism/index.php

Enjoy.

[Turey]

Anyone who [is||will be] arguing on the creation side owes it to themselves to read this

[Nuclear1]

Sometimes I am glad that I live in a country where we don't have debates like this.......

I'm glad as hell to live in a country where we have debates over religion/science/anything. It shows that we're still allowed to think and have ideas that differ from one ruling authoritarian party. But that's another debate for another day. Good link, though. It sums up everything neatly that aldo and kara have been saying throughout the whole thread.

Anyone who [is||will be] arguing on the creation side owes it to themselves to read this

Very highly advised. This was a very good read, and I saw a couple of points in there that ZmaN and Char have been trying to employ in their debates.