[Grug]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18724849-36398,00.html

DOCTORS have implanted adult stem cells into a patient's broken leg in an Australian world-first experimental procedure they hope will replace painful bone grafts.
Jamie Stevens, 21, shattered his leg in a motorbike accident in June. After nine months of discomfort and inactivity, the break had not healed.

Last Friday, Royal Melbourne Hospital orthopaedics director Richard de Steiger inserted about 30 million of Mr Stevens's stem cells into the cavity in his left thigh bone, coated on two pieces of "scaffolding" made of bone-like material.

The stem cells were harvested from his bone marrow during a biopsy about seven weeks earlier and cultured into bone-producing cells.

Doctors will have to wait six weeks before they know if the cells are likely to grow into new bone.

Dr de Steiger said he hoped the cavity in Mr Stevens's bone would have completely filled after 16 weeks.

"Like any medical research it's exciting, but it's tempered by the fact you have to wait and see," Dr de Steiger said.

Mr Stevens, of Ivanhoe, is the first of 10 patients who will undergo the procedure over the next 12 months at the hospital in a clinical trial.

He will be discharged from Royal Melbourne Hospital today on crutches and with his leg still swollen.

"It's still quite sore but it's better than it was," Mr Stevens said yesterday. "I'm pretty happy to be the first one in the world."

Dr de Steiger said long bone fractures failed to heal in about 10 per cent of cases, which usually led to a bone graft.

He said the treatment, developed by Australian firm Mesoblast Ltd, could reduce hospital stays and recovery time while reducing discomfort.

Using patients' own stem cells eliminates the risk of rejection that can occur with cells from another donor.

Hooray for science!
Hopefully all go's well and we can see further application in the medical industry.

[Bobboau]

oh, look another country is takeing over the reigns of scientific research, thanks Bush

[Charismatic]

oh, look another country is takeing over the reigns of scientific research, thanks Bush

"Oh no! The press will kill me if i say yes to this research. Il have to say no and sit on my ass." *Waves world peace flag*
If anyone should do the stem cell research on live human specimins, it should be us, the USA. People whine too much, and we cant get work done.

[Ace]

Ermm... weren't you one of the people screaming about how fetal stem cells were immortal not too long ago?

Or was that bizzaro Charismatic?

[Eightball]

There was not a single embryonic stem cell involved in the procedure.  There is moral dilemma here, and Bush has not limited funding for such endevours at the least.

[Goober5000]

Doctors have implanted adult stem cells

Re-quoted for emphasis.

[Bobboau]

the ban effects all research related to stem cells. there are limeted supplies.
why does anyone care about useing fetal cells? if we find something that works with them we could probly reverse engeneer it for adult ones, but the posibility exsists that fetal cells might be easier to find the stuff with initaly.

[aldo_14]

the ban effects all research related to stem cells. there are limeted supplies.
why does anyone care about useing fetal cells? if we find something that works with them we could probly reverse engeneer it for adult ones, but the posibility exsists that fetal cells might be easier to find the stuff with initaly.

IIRC it restricts research to a small number of foetal stem cell lines (about 6 to 15 IIRC), which effectively represents the genetic diversity of a whopping 60 people (restricting any potential for cures).  It's worth remembering the value of foetal stem cells is that they are undifferentiated (pluripotent) and can grow into any type of cell; although there are undifferentiated adult, etc, stem cells, these have only a restricted ability to differentiate if any (Multipotent cells can produce those of a similar type, i.e. using umbilical cord stem cells to treat blood disorders, and unipotent cells can't differentiate but have special reproductive properties that set them apart).  So foetal stem cells are much more 'powerful' as a potential cure.

The arguement against foetal stem cell research is that you need to get the cells from a blastocyst - an embryo of 50-150 cells - and that means either cloning for them, or taking them from aborted embryos.  What you get, unfortunately, is the strange arguement  (this was specifically used by Liberator a while back, and I'm not paraphrasing it atall) that succesfull foetal stem-cell based cures will lead to vats of embryos being grown for harvesting stem cells.

It's worth noting that embryonic stem cells have only been known of since about 1989, compared to the 60s for adult stem cells, so expectations of a sudden cure based upon them would be rather optimistic, although there have IIRC been some promising experimental results in the treatment of things like diabetes, heart defects, and blood disorders.

[Col. Fishguts]

In other words, foetal stem cells have root access to your genetic code, whereas adult stem cells are only an ordinary user.

[Grug]

If anyone should do the stem cell research on live human specimins, it should be us, the USA.

LoL, where's the logic in that?
Should be a global scientific endeavour.

[Goober5000]

What you get, unfortunately, is the strange arguement (this was specifically used by Liberator a while back, and I'm not paraphrasing it atall) that succesfull foetal stem-cell based cures will lead to vats of embryos being grown for harvesting stem cells.

How is this a strange argument?  Seems to me that if they can figure out how to use fetal stem cells in this way, they'd be in very high demand.

[aldo_14]

What you get, unfortunately, is the strange arguement (this was specifically used by Liberator a while back, and I'm not paraphrasing it atall) that succesfull foetal stem-cell based cures will lead to vats of embryos being grown for harvesting stem cells.

How is this a strange argument?  Seems to me that if they can figure out how to use fetal stem cells in this way, they'd be in very high demand.

Because it's completely and utterly implausible and essentially aims to brand doctors as child-murderers.  It's an attempt to launch an emotive attack using images popularised by dystopian nightmares and at the same time denegrate medical researchers and ignore their adherence to the hippocratic oath. Moreso, it ignores that these cells are only obtained at the blastocyst stage (i.e. cells in a test tube), too, and IMO aims to evoke the more (again) emotive image of a developing foetus in the classical hunched-in-womb style.  And that this creation would be via therapeutic cloning rather than 'forced abortion' type scenario certain members of the anti progress camp aim to convey with that allusion.

i.e. it's based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation and an almost wilfull distrust and denegration of scientists/doctors.

[Goober5000]

So instead of vats of aborted embryos, we'd have test tubes of cloned blastocysts.  Different details, but the same core concept.

If fetal stem cells become in high demand, then people will want to find ways to mass-produce them.  Just like if we ever figure out how to successfully grow organs, we'll have organ farms popping up almost overnight.  I have no problem with either scenario unless it involves embryos, cloned or otherwise.

And the Hippocratic Oath doesn't stop everyone.  Just look at the black market for organ donors.

[aldo_14]

So instead of vats of aborted embryos, we'd have test tubes of cloned blastocysts.  Different details, but the same core concept.

If fetal stem cells become in high demand, then people will want to find ways to mass-produce them.  Just like if we ever figure out how to successfully grow organs, we'll organ farms popping up almost overnight.

I have no problem with either scenario unless it involves embryos, cloned or otherwise.

Perhaps the most appropriate response to make, considering the massive potential benefits, is to show what a blastocyst is.


That (quite possibly cloned, or created using artificial eggs as has been suggested).  Consider the value of that vis-a-vis, say, a 20 year old with a heart defect.  It's quite a different image to the Matrix-esque 'human farm' that gets pushed.

And the Hippocratic Oath doesn't stop everyone.  Just look at the black market for organ donors.

*ding*

Back in with the attacks on doctors.  Fundamental lack of trust being propagated here, I see.

[Goober5000]

Perhaps the most appropriate response to make, considering the massive potential benefits, is to show what a blastocyst is.
[snip]

That (quite possibly cloned, or created using artificial eggs as has been suggested). Consider the value of that vis-a-vis, say, a 20 year old with a heart defect. It's quite a different image to the Matrix-esque 'human farm' that gets pushed.

It's still a human farm, regardless of its appearance.  But one's position on this is probably going to be the same as one's position on abortion.

Anyway, if you zoom out enough, the Earth becomes a speck of dust among the rest of the universe.  Does that mean the Earth is less important?

And the Hippocratic Oath doesn't stop everyone. Just look at the black market for organ donors.

*ding*

Back in with the attacks on doctors. Fundamental lack of trust being propagated here, I see.

My dad is a doctor.  He's a man of integrity, but he works with people who aren't.  I've heard stories of shortcuts being taken, diagnoses being made incorrectly in haste, unneeded medicine being prescribed just so the patient will leave them alone, etc.  It happens more often than you would think.

Anyway, I distrust everybody where money is concerned.  If this becomes feasible on a large scale, it'll turn into a booming industry.  People aren't going to let a little thing like the Hippocratic Oath get in the way of making a buck.

For an example where morality doesn't enter the picture at all, take laser eye surgery.  It's an extremely profitable business, and doctors are so eager to make money from it that they oftentimes don't warn patients of the possible complications.  Most of the time it works, but sometimes it doesn't, and people are permanently stuck with worse (and more painful) vision than when they started.  (I'm not even sure laser eye surgery requires a license, either.)

[Shade]

(I'm not even sure laser eye surgery requires a license, either.)

So that's why our wingmen can't hit worth a damn. Flight surgeon to pilot with glasses: "Look, just come stand here and look straight into the ML-16 and we'll get you 20/20 eyesight in notime, I promise this won't hurt a bit... "

[aldo_14]

It's still a human farm, regardless of its appearance.  But one's position on this is probably going to be the same as one's position on abortion.

Anyway, if you zoom out enough, the Earth becomes a speck of dust among the rest of the universe.  Does that mean the Earth is less important?

Um, less important than the entire universe?  On any sort of objective viewpoint, of course.  Zoom out from the cellular level and a virus becomes a spec of dust amongst cells, after all.

My dad is a doctor.  He's a man of integrity, but he works with people who aren't.  I've heard stories of shortcuts being taken, diagnoses being made incorrectly in haste, unneeded medicine being prescribed just so the patient will leave them alone, etc.  It happens more often than you would think.

Anyway, I distrust everybody where money is concerned.  If this becomes feasible on a large scale, it'll turn into a booming industry.  People aren't going to let a little thing like the Hippocratic Oath get in the way of making a buck.

For an example where morality doesn't enter the picture at all, take laser eye surgery.  It's an extremely profitable business, and doctors are so eager to make money from it that they oftentimes don't warn patients of the possible complications.  Most of the time it works, but sometimes it doesn't, and people are permanently stuck with worse (and more painful) vision than when they started.  (I'm not even sure laser eye surgery requires a license, either.)

Ah, I forget this is a perspective that'd be influenced by the US health system.  Apologies.

[Goober5000]

Um, less important than the entire universe? On any sort of objective viewpoint, of course.

Enough, say, to warrant destroying it in order to build a hyperspace bypass? I would say no.  The Earth has intrinsic value regardless of its comparative size.  So do humans.

(NB: I haven't actually read the book, though I've been meaning to.  So apologies if this comparison is inapt for reasons revealed therein.)

Ah, I forget this is a perspective that'd be influenced by the US health system.  Apologies.

Heh, accepted.

[Shade]

Close enough. Though strictly speaking, no, humanity is not important enough to stand in the way of a hyperspace bypass. At least not from a Vogon point of view... which is probably a point to consider. Earth definitely does have intrinsic value, as do we as humans, but this is from our own point of view. I'm sure some random alien race on the other side of the galaxy doesn't really give a damn whether we live, die, or even exist.

Now go read The Book. Now. What, still here? Go! One of the best books ever written

[Edit] Damn Galazies sneaking in where I want a Galaxy to be.

[aldo_14]

Um, less important than the entire universe? On any sort of objective viewpoint, of course.

Enough, say, to warrant destroying it in order to build a hyperspace bypass? I would say no.  The Earth has intrinsic value regardless of its comparative size.  So do humans.

That depends if you check your local intergalactic planning dept. on Alpha Centauri or not.  If you won't make the effort......

Seriously, though, how can you assign 'intrinsic value'?  All the intrinsic value based judgements that would place some restriction upon creation & use of blastocyts would surely be based on subjective personal views rather than any empirical basis, and you can't deny millions of patients medical treatments because your gut alone says it's wrong.