[Shadow0000]

Well, Nova and Supernova...hey what about a Hypernova (Collapsar) ?, fits perfect for xenocidal species...

[aldo_14]

i did not say they would do uit imediatly i sai that they would eventualy do that! And by the looks of thins i man the spped with wich the GTVa is actualy reverse engeniering shivan tech some better then the original some not so good  they will eventualy be able to recreate the conditions of the cappella supernova without actualy having to build 80 jugs.

Yeah, cos the Shivans were just so sloppy in that one.  I mean, pff, you'd think in millenia they'd have figured out blowing up a star and escaping with less than 80 juggernauts, but noooooooo............GTVA will have one whipped up in about a week,  Now they just have to find somewhere to test it......

[AlphaOne]

hmm well i didnt mean to say that aldo . you should really stop twisting the words around.
All i was tryng to point out is that the GTVA has a talent for improving or recreating with its own tech the weapons of its enemyes. Some of them work better then others. That said i have no doubht thet they will eventualy manage to recreate the conditions which led to the supernova without actualy building 80 jugs. Maibe some other devices sure i'm not saing that they will stick a fighter there and cause a supernova by creating a subspace filed around the fighter. I'm just sayng that at the rate the GTVA is improving its technology they will be able to catch up with the shivans technologicly i mean a lot faster then anyone thinks.

Also i would imagine they would invest a huge amount of time and resources and money into subspace research. I mean better subspace engines etc. Now they also have the knossos tech from wich to improve. So who knows maibe given a reasonable amount of time they eould actualy cause a star to go supernova with realative ease.

All i'm saing is that nothing that the shivans can or will throw at the GTVA wont be reversd engeniered at some point by the GTVA or even improved. The terran Mara is the best example of that. They managed to get it working even better then the original.

Now is that specific and "realistic" enough ???

[aldo_14]

Honestly...right, firstly it's rather daft to suggest what took the Shivans years to develop using 80 juggernauts can be replicated in a single fighter.  I'd wager it to be against the laws of (freespace) physics for one thing.  Now, assuming the GTVA can even begin to develop the same technology level as the Shivans is rather difficult to justify.... for one thing, they can't use unstable nodes, nor do they have any form of impermeable shield.  Even assuming we've seen all the Shivans current tech whch, according to the laws of sequels, is highly unlikely.

So we have the concept of matching a moving barrier in technology terms.  Let's not forget 'a huge amount of time and resources and money' into research.  where does all this come from?  The fleet is devastated, there are something like 100m refugees from Capella to be rehoused, and on top of that you have the worry of racial/species schisms in the aftermath of the NTF rebellion.  But that'll all solve itself, because we have to pour money into research!  To catch up over 8,000 years, let's not forget.

And just to note the Terran Mara example.... it's a little different to capture and even optimize a craft, than to be capable of developing it.  Perhaps a bit like the difference between putting together a Pc from components, to being able to design and manufacture new components.   That's if we assume Shivan fighters are the pinnacle of their engineering, which is in itself a little dodgy as they piss the things away like there's no tomorrow.

Anyways, we have this concept of a supernova weapon.  So, what use is this technology to the GTVA that would lead them to prioritise it?  About, I'd suggest, bugger all.  They don't know where Shivan territory is, let alone being able to reach, let alone whether the Shivans have territory which, based on FS1 and 2, the probably don't.  Moreso, using the weapon would destroy any GTVA forces in the vicinity (as well as the system itself and all its resources, meaning any defensive use is pointless, and offensive use would mean you would have increasingly overstretched supply lines, even if the nodes were there to allow an aggressive attack, which they probably wouldn't be).

So what advantage does this give that destroying the node doesn't?  Er, none.  Unless 'mass suicide' is an advantage.

[AlphaOne]

WEll if u look carefull i said: " Maibe some other devices sure i'm NOT saing that they will stick a fighter there and cause a supernova by creating a subspace filed around the fighter." Also since when does the stupidity of a weapon or its use managed to halt its developement?? Yes i'l give you the fact that the shivans are at least in terms of subspace way ahaed of the GTVA but the difference in other areas is not so big. I mean yeah sure u could use another 20 or 30 or even 50 years of developing that thing in order to get it to shivan specs but the again i failed to see them perform poorly just because they were less advanced then theyr counterparts. i can safely say that some designs were better then theyr shivan counterparts.

I'm not tryng to say that the GTVA will become more tech advanced over night but in time i believ that teh diference between the two sides will begin to shink and who knows eventualy dissapear.

Also we tend to see a sort of stagnation of the shivan tech advances. i mean if you look carefully at it u can see that they had or have the same ships that they used to defeat the Ancients with. So the shivans in mi bilef are on a stalemate reagarding theyr technological evolutin. no more big tech brakethroughs and stuff like that while the GTVA is barely at its beginning.

[aldo_14]

Also since when does the stupidity of a weapon or its use managed to halt its developement??

So you admit it's stupid?

Yes i'l give you the fact that the shivans are at least in terms of subspace way ahaed of the GTVA but the difference in other areas is not so big. I mean yeah sure u could use another 20 or 30 or even 50 years of developing that thing in order to get it to shivan specs but the again i failed to see them perform poorly just because they were less advanced then theyr counterparts. i can safely say that some designs were better then theyr shivan counterparts.

In most of the major engagements in FS2 the Shivans explicitly stated by either command or in-mission characters to be superior.  Also, any weaker performance by a Shivan ship has to be wieghed against its' quantity and deployment, i.e. the necessity of high technology for a cannon fodder fighter is debatable.

Again assuming we've seen the Shivan technological peak, of course.

Also we tend to see a sort of stagnation of the shivan tech advances. i mean if you look carefully at it u can see that they had or have the same ships that they used to defeat the Ancients with. So the shivans in mi bilef are on a stalemate reagarding theyr technological evolutin. no more big tech brakethroughs and stuff like that while the GTVA is barely at its beginning.

Er, what?  We know this how?

[S-99]

Hey now, don't say that. It's not good in the light you say that in. Just think of the possibilities you get when you get a fleet managed by those who don't have a will to live. Supernova
Ok, so the methods the shivans used to blow up the star with does range. It's not improbable though, subspace in the game does deal with space time also. But, if you made a star age that fast, i wouldn't want to be the person to do it, i'm just thinking of all those fast ass solar flares that'd be whipping around, and that would in fact be a problem for the sathani.
Lol, node or no node, it appears that the shivans ross128'd out of there regardless, that definitely seems to be something everyone agrees on. How much everyone want to bet that the sathani warped back to the nebula, or the space beyond the nebula? In the game the nebula and the node after it seemed to be what you could loosely call the extreme outer fringes of shivan territory. Why warp out anywhere else? The nebula is close by, and in the complete opposite direction there is terran-vasudan space.

[aldo_14]

Hey now, don't say that. It's not good in the light you say that in. Just think of the possibilities you get when you get a fleet managed by those who don't have a will to live. Supernova
Ok, so the methods the shivans used to blow up the star with does range. It's not improbable though, subspace in the game does deal with space time also. But, if you made a star age that fast, i wouldn't want to be the person to do it, i'm just thinking of all those fast ass solar flares that'd be whipping around, and that would in fact be a problem for the sathani.
Lol, node or no node, it appears that the shivans ross128'd out of there regardless, that definitely seems to be something everyone agrees on. How much everyone want to bet that the sathani warped back to the nebula, or the space beyond the nebula? In the game the nebula and the node after it seemed to be what you could loosely call the extreme outer fringes of shivan territory. Why warp out anywhere else? The nebula is close by, and in the complete opposite direction there is terran-vasudan space.

One thing.  The nebula is at least 2 jumps (GD) away, and subspace distance and relative distance have a kind of abstract relationship. 

That, and you're forgetting jump option 3.

[AlphaOne]

Well i dont know about that aldo i mean i'm NOT sayng that you are wrong its just that at this rate the GTVA will never ever be able to win any srious battle against the shivans. Sure the whole technological peak regarding the shivans is debatable since there is no cannon proof to sugest that but then agains there is indirect proof of the shivans very slow technological advances over the course of several thousands of years. I mean look at it we have the same cruisers and fighter/bommbers deployed by the shivans when engaging the GTVA both in FS1 and in FS2 that they ued against the Ancients.

Of course that is also debatable since there is no clear evidence to sugest that these are actual designs used by the shivans several thousands of years ago. But there are a lot of indirect evidence to supot it. Also i believe that the Lucifer was the same ship that spearheaded the shivan destruction of the ancients or a ship similar to it.(same class i mean).

Also we must remember something that we have seen over the course of history whenever a society becomes too owerfull it begins to stagnate. technological breakthrougs are made at a much wider period of time just because they have the upper hand regardless of theyr technological superiority or not.

We must remember that the Ancients could in act have been just as advanced as the shivas in terms of waepons technologi except for the whole Lucifer shileds.(this is by no mean cannon but speculation). And in terms of subspace technologi there is definetly proof of the ancients vast knoldge and technological skills regarding this aspect. It would be safe to asume that maibe theyr tech rivaled that of the shivans(subsapce tech that is).

We all know thet the only thing that tipped the balance of power in favor of the shivans was the fact that the ancients could not get past the Lucifer's shields in time. And since we have cannon proof somewhere cant remember where exactly that the Ancients were only decades ahead of the GTVA in terms of ship/weapons tech it is safe to asume that the GTVA through a concentrated effort could in fact given some time equal the shivans in terms of ship/weapons tech. Subspace travell well thats something else but nothing is imposible as the FS universe tought us.

Also regarding the whole jump to the nebula thing it could be posible since we have seen the shivans apear out of nowhere before. But then again it cant be that simple. I mean why go through all this trouble and have countless bokber/fighters and even a few jugs and other cap ships destroyed just so that you could reach a certain destination which was raechable through other means.

Sure you might say that this is posibly because of the Colossus but then again that arguement doesnt really work in the end of FS2.

Why? Simply because the shivans have lost a great dael of warships and fighters and stuff like that before and never gave a damn about it. Also the ease with wich the Colossus was destroyed should of given them a clue as to the sthrenght of that class of ship.

Oh well we can speculate all we want but the fact is that blowing up capella just so that you can reach a sistem 2 normal jumps away is stupid each way you look at it. They must of had another destination posibli one thy could not reach that easely. Posibli a jumpnode to anotehr galaxy posibly a jump all the way to the other side of the galaxy who knows.

Actualy i'd like to think they all jumped into a blackk hole mi some error of calculation on thery part. But hey thatsjust me!

[S-99]

What is jump option 3?
I woud figure that as long as supernova's are starting up, and ships are warping out, that the shivans must have had a way to escape.
In reality aldo they could have gone anywhere, and where is what we don't know.
As far as shivan tech not changing, why change a favorite effective bomber design that's been used for thousands of years by the shivans. The seraphim kicks ass, so does the taurvi and nahema.
Besides, since when are the shivans more advanced anyway? Terran and vasudan fighters are way better, not to mention the weaponry. The only thing the shivans really got good is juggernauts,bombers, superior knowledge of subspace, and more efficient beams(not the strongest). Speaking of which, i wonder how old the average sathanas is.

[Mars]

If the Shivans were changing their technology every 50 years, would they have enough time to make the numbers of ships they apparently have?

[NGTM-1R]

I'm going to have call BS on the Shivans having vastly superior technology then the GTVA, 'cuz frankly it's pretty obvious they don't. In a lot of areas the Shivans are starting to lag badly by FS2. Their fightercraft are poor; their defenses against fighters laughable. Shivan beams are marginally superior (and the GTVA did build the Mjolnir, which beats everything but the BFRed, so their superiority of technology is dubious; it may simply be that the Shivans don't need as much in the way of heatsinks to keep their ships' environment bearable), but the ships that wield them display no great superiority of technology. The Shivan advantage is largely one of aggressor's initative and tactics/equipment optimized for it, not technology.

I've also noted before that it seems as though the Shivans overinvested in those 80+ Sathanii. Shivan destroyers and corvettes are vastly underrepresented in the main campaign. For the destroyers in particular the same names keep being used, as though they don't have many of them. GTVA fighters have advanced by leaps and bounds; Shivan ones have made less impressive gains. The same can be said of capital craft.

And finally, there is the second option on the origin of the star-nuker: that it is Ancients, not Shivan, technology.

[Mars]

Naw, the Shivans obviously have their advantage in numbers, as I said before, if they were always updating their designs, they would never finish 80+ Sathani, and I don't belive they "overinvested" in them, I belive they are the product of 8,000 years shipbuilding (theat would break down to ~100 years per ship, I don't belive they actually spent 100 years per juggernaught, they were doing more then just building Sathani, and I think we can safely assume that there were more ships in the second Shivan fleet than the player saw.

[AlphaOne]

SAy what Ancient star nuker not shivan??? Then what the hell where the shivans dooing around cappella field testing the blasted thing???
Woo now i'm really confused. Not that i wasnt before but now i'm really starting to get a head hurt.
I dont know something smellf fishi around here i mean look at it:
a)we have the shivans in the first shivan war whre they went around basting the hell out of planets and everithing in sight . i mean they were more interested in balsting away at the home planets of each faction then they were of the milatary forces. Hell they didnt have to wory cuz they had shealds on the blasted thing.
b)we have our second generation of shivans so to speak more interested in getting the GTVA out of the nebula. I mean they swept aside the GTVA forces (sure they destroyed everione else left surviving afterwards) and went straight fo the capella star. I mean no planet blasting no nothing. And they could of done it easely.

I mean something doesnt fit the picture here. I mean sure even if they were different shivans i mean different factions or stuff like that theyr goals are way to oposite adn wai to far from one another. If you look carefully they only deployed what some corvettes, cruisers and what a destroyer or something like that to keep the GTVA ocupied. I mean that was all just smoke into the eyes of the GTVA. All they wanted there was to be left alone to do they job around Capella. But something still bothers me how the hell did they knew another Collosus wasnt about to pop up and start blasting away theyr ships or even 2 or a whole fleet of the or even 80 of them...??? They were acting wai too calulated in the final acts of the war. This in term leads me to believe that they had very very good intel about the strenght of the GVTA or rather the lack of it.

Hey lets asume thats the case. From where the hell did they get that kind of intel i mean its not like they went around GTVA space poaking theyr heads around shipyards and stuff like that to see how many ships there were. To me that leaves only one option....yes you know it : Bosch!

I mean he wa the only one capable of delivering such intel to the shivans. This would also suggest that he had succefuly managed to contact the shivans. and that eh was actualy kept alive there by the shivans.

For those who say this is imposible i want you to think about the fact that it all fits way to perfect. I mean you have the virtual decimation of the GTVA forces. then you have the destruction of the jugg. Then you have the apearence of multiple jugs. Then the GTVA retreats to capella and the destruction of the colossus. And here lies the end of efective combat action of the juggs. The rest are all engagements of the cruisers corvettes and a destroyer i think. Just enough to keep the GTVA ocupied while they take position around capella and go around blowing it up. Also this would fi perfectly with Bosch's vision of a better future for the terrans. Hey sacrifice a few bilions so that other billions can survive and prosper.

Also if lets say they used the cappela supernova to open a jumpnode to another place then it must be far far away and it has to be huge in order to fit all the reamaining juggs in it. Perhaps another galaxy. Ths would be quite posible since we do have a hint from the ancient monologues that the Ancients empire streched across the galaxy and eventualy went beyond the border of our galaxy to another galaxy.

Also regarding the whole shivan tech stuff while i do admit that shivan beams are far more fective then theyr GTVA counterparts most of the time i would imagine this was largely due to them having the original prototipe available from wich to develop.(lucifer)

While the GTVA had only data on the subject and not the original which mi guess is would of provided for a much better beam tech in the end. Also there is the Mjolnir.

In terms of ship design i must say that some of the ships we see do seem superior in design to the GTVA but then again the GTVA have produced ships which are genraly a jack of all trades and not just defensive or ofensive in nature. Just imagine how would an Orion or a Hecate look if it were designed specificly for head on engagements with other ships. You cant?? Well just stick 4 or 5 Mjolnir beam cannons in front of it and see what happens. I meanthats what the shivans did. But regarding the whole AAAF defenses i must say i would feel a LOT more secure having a Deimos behind me then a shivan corvette.

[Mars]

I think he means the Shivans stole it from the Ancients Alpha.

[AlphaOne]

what no way i mean come on they were never interested in alien tech before why start all of a sudden. Also if the Ancients had something like thsi dont u think they would of used it against the shivans before they entire race wat theoreticly made extinct.(I saidtheoreticly cuz to be honest i dont think they were all wiped out. some of them must of escaped some outpost some small cluster of colonies. I mean come on these guis were streched all over galaxies men not just start sistems. And it would of been imposible even for the shivans to have whiped them all of just like that) .

Also if the ancients had something like this then it would be safe to presume that the tech for the blasted things would have been recorded somewhere. And if thats the case then could it be safe to asume that the GTVA might or will uncover the specs for the thing??? I mean they uncovered quite a few degrees of ancient tech so far. Sure we dont actualy know that much but then again the GTVA has a talent for hiding stuff especialy the GTVI.

Yey the GTVA finali getn to blow up a star....er........eventualy......!(just fooling around regardint the last sentence) !

[aldo_14]

Well i dont know about that aldo i mean i'm NOT sayng that you are wrong its just that at this rate the GTVA will never ever be able to win any srious battle against the shivans. Sure the whole technological peak regarding the shivans is debatable since there is no cannon proof to sugest that but then agains there is indirect proof of the shivans very slow technological advances over the course of several thousands of years. I mean look at it we have the same cruisers and fighter/bommbers deployed by the shivans when engaging the GTVA both in FS1 and in FS2 that they ued against the Ancients.

Well that's a completely unfounded guess right there......the only single mention of the Shivan forces that destroyed the Ancients is a) that they had a shielded destroyer class the Ancients could not destroy and b) something with Lucifer-esque weaponry destroyed Altair.  The most you can map that to is the use of a/the Lucifer.

Of course that is also debatable since there is no clear evidence to sugest that these are actual designs used by the shivans several thousands of years ago. But there are a lot of indirect evidence to supot it. Also i believe that the Lucifer was the same ship that spearheaded the shivan destruction of the ancients or a ship similar to it.(same class i mean).

That's not actually evidence for technological stagnation, unless you want to suggest the Shivans developed beams, flak, and a supernova-causing juggernaut fleet in the time period between FS1 and FS2 (in which case they clearly have a greater capacity for advancement and manufacturing).

Also we must remember something that we have seen over the course of history whenever a society becomes too owerfull it begins to stagnate. technological breakthrougs are made at a much wider period of time just because they have the upper hand regardless of theyr technological superiority or not.

What, like the US?

We must remember that the Ancients could in act have been just as advanced as the shivas in terms of waepons technologi except for the whole Lucifer shileds.(this is by no mean cannon but speculation). And in terms of subspace technologi there is definetly proof of the ancients vast knoldge and technological skills regarding this aspect. It would be safe to asume that maibe theyr tech rivaled that of the shivans(subsapce tech that is).

Safe?  I doubt that any assumptions regarding the Shivans and Ancients would be safe.  Based on how you read the monologues, it's actually debatable whether the ancients took down a single shivan ship of any sort, even though I'd wager they had.

Of course, the other side is that the Ancients were more advanced than humanity; after all, it was their subspace tracking device that won the Great War, otherwise the GT(V)A was simply mincemeat.  Quite why or where the Ancients figure in this little chain of reasoning, I don't know.  After all, they were verifiably far more advanced than the GTVA (Knossos device, subspace tracking), but were annihilated by a Shivan fleet that may have been of the archaic specifications of the FS1 fleet.

You can argue, of course, that the victory in FS1 shown a human ability to adapt alien technology to survive; but that can't apply to the Shivans unless we've seen all their tricks, and I doubt we have.

We all know thet the only thing that tipped the balance of power in favor of the shivans was the fact that the ancients could not get past the Lucifer's shields in time. And since we have cannon proof somewhere cant remember where exactly that the Ancients were only decades ahead of the GTVA in terms of ship/weapons tech it is safe to asume that the GTVA through a concentrated effort could in fact given some time equal the shivans in terms of ship/weapons tech. Subspace travell well thats something else but nothing is imposible as the FS universe tought us.

We have absolutely no canon proof of the Ancients shield or weapons tech levels, let alone the relative difference between it and GTVA levels.  It has never been mentioned anywhere within FS.  Unless you can correct me with a source, of course.

In any case, all it means it that the GTVA has xx years to catch up with the Ancients, a race annihilated by the Shivans 8000 years ago.

If the Shivans were changing their technology every 50 years, would they have enough time to make the numbers of ships they apparently have?

Why not?

What is jump option 3?
I woud figure that as long as supernova's are starting up, and ships are warping out, that the shivans must have had a way to escape.
In reality aldo they could have gone anywhere, and where is what we don't know.

Option 3; jump 'into' the nova.  I mean, it is a subspace distortion effect going on there, and we can't assume the nova wasn't a minor sideffect of doing something far more important to the Shivans.

(there's another option that springs to mind, that the Shivans jumped into subspace and waited within there, although I don't even know if that's possible)

I'm going to have call BS on the Shivans having vastly superior technology then the GTVA, 'cuz frankly it's pretty obvious they don't. In a lot of areas the Shivans are starting to lag badly by FS2. Their fightercraft are poor; their defenses against fighters laughable. Shivan beams are marginally superior (and the GTVA did build the Mjolnir, which beats everything but the BFRed, so their superiority of technology is dubious; it may simply be that the Shivans don't need as much in the way of heatsinks to keep their ships' environment bearable), but the ships that wield them display no great superiority of technology. The Shivan advantage is largely one of aggressor's initative and tactics/equipment optimized for it, not technology.

Are we talking the gameplay stats or the tech/cb/message brieifings here?  Because i'm pretty sure the latter gives the Shivans a big upper hand, and I'd hold that over the stats simply because it's not much fun placing the player against a large number of invincible opponents.

I've also noted before that it seems as though the Shivans overinvested in those 80+ Sathanii. Shivan destroyers and corvettes are vastly underrepresented in the main campaign. For the destroyers in particular the same names keep being used, as though they don't have many of them. GTVA fighters have advanced by leaps and bounds; Shivan ones have made less impressive gains. The same can be said of capital craft.

And finally, there is the second option on the origin of the star-nuker: that it is Ancients, not Shivan, technology.

It doesn't strike me as a very good option, because I can't see a single use in nuking a star for the Ancients.  There's not much point building an empire if you destroy all your possesions in doing so.  Granted, I guess you could suggest that it was useful for creating mining fields of gas (NB: how long does a supernova take to cool down to a nebula?), but that strikes me as equivalent to nuking Chicago just so you can get some glass.  There's definately not any evidence so far AFAIK for them using it against the Shivans (which would strike me as the most obvious deployment, if they couldn't seal a node any other way), because the only nebula in FS2 has a Knossos indicating post-exploration.

Moreso, I can't really see the Shivans as a goa'uld type scavenger race.  It just doesn't sit with the 'invincible enemy' image for me.

[NGTM-1R]

Are we talking the gameplay stats or the tech/cb/message brieifings here?  Because i'm pretty sure the latter gives the Shivans a big upper hand, and I'd hold that over the stats simply because it's not much fun placing the player against a large number of invincible opponents.

I don't actually draw a distinction here, partly because, let's face it, Alpha 1 was there for all the really important stuff, and I can't really think of an instance where the two diverge drastically. What they say happens in the CBs/tech room/briefings is all possible, even likely, by gameplay standards.

It doesn't strike me as a very good option, because I can't see a single use in nuking a star for the Ancients.  There's not much point building an empire if you destroy all your possesions in doing so.  Granted, I guess you could suggest that it was useful for creating mining fields of gas (NB: how long does a supernova take to cool down to a nebula?), but that strikes me as equivalent to nuking Chicago just so you can get some glass.  There's definately not any evidence so far AFAIK for them using it against the Shivans (which would strike me as the most obvious deployment, if they couldn't seal a node any other way), because the only nebula in FS2 has a Knossos indicating post-exploration.

Moreso, I can't really see the Shivans as a goa'uld type scavenger race.  It just doesn't sit with the 'invincible enemy' image for me.

Everybody likes explosions.

But seriously. There are a number of possibly faulty assumptions at work here. The first and most fundemental is that the star-nuker was actually meant to nuke stars. (And you're the one who pointed out it might not be...) Perhaps the Shivans didn't read the owner's manual well enough, or translated it wrong.

Then there is the possiblity that the Ancients either never had the weapon in a deployable state, or when they did try to deploy it the Shivans blew it the hell up. Perhaps it never progressed beyond the drawing board, a simple curiousity that had been theorized but was never pursued; perhaps they couldn't get it ready in time. Or perhaps they did, but when they tried to use it the Lucifer waltzed in and fried the ships carrying it.

The Ancients were, so far as we know, the masters of subspace, posessing the most advanced technologies related to that method of travel of any group. They managed to bridge the gap between galaxies, prop open nodes even the Shivans could not travel through. We aren't sure the Shivans even know how to build a Knossos (improbable though it is they wouldn't, with all the time they've had to stare at them). Subspace is a medium the Shivans are intensely interested in. They don't care a whit for the technology of the GTVA, true. But if the Ancients had developed subspace technologies more advanced then the Shivans themselves, I don't see why they would not have picked the pockets of their dead enemies.

Subspace is the one area of technology that the Shivans have a serious, insurmountable advantage over the GTVA in, the critical area, because if all things were equal in this category then the Shivans would have GTVA-esque jump accuracy, and their Ravana would show up in the wrong place and get trashed by the Lysander and Actium, or Sathanas 17 would be pointing the wrong way when it jumped in and the Colossus would get to use up a lot of red paint on a second Sathanas silhuotte. This is the single most critical element of Shivan superiority, they need to maintain their edge in this technology above all others. If they cannot, then all those attack-oriented designs start to look a lot less appealling. Encountering the Ancients, who were at least their equal in subspace terms, probably came as a rude surprise, and the need to stay ahead of anyone else would have made the Shivans at least examine Ancients technology in detail, if not adopt any of it.

[aldo_14]

I don't actually draw a distinction here, partly because, let's face it, Alpha 1 was there for all the really important stuff, and I can't really think of an instance where the two diverge drastically. What they say happens in the CBs/tech room/briefings is all possible, even likely, by gameplay standards.

Well, just look at the Ravanas apparent decimation of the GTVA forces first sent to attack.  Or, IIRC, your wingmans' comments upon first encountering the Mara in Lion At the Gate (or whatever it was called).  Or even going back all the way to FS1, the Typhons' tech description versus its actual stats and armament compared to the Orion.

Everybody likes explosions.

But seriously. There are a number of possibly faulty assumptions at work here. The first and most fundemental is that the star-nuker was actually meant to nuke stars. (And you're the one who pointed out it might not be...) Perhaps the Shivans didn't read the owner's manual well enough, or translated it wrong.

Ok, that's fair enough, but to me that seems somewhat counterintuitive.  Particularly given the late development of subspace tracking by the Ancients, as IMO that would seem to be 'easier' than anything of the magnitude that, erroneously or not, could destroy a star.

Then there is the possiblity that the Ancients either never had the weapon in a deployable state, or when they did try to deploy it the Shivans blew it the hell up. Perhaps it never progressed beyond the drawing board, a simple curiousity that had been theorized but was never pursued; perhaps they couldn't get it ready in time. Or perhaps they did, but when they tried to use it the Lucifer waltzed in and fried the ships carrying it.

For it to be something 'stolen' from the Ancients, rather than independently developed, it would surely have to be in a reasonably physically developed state.   Beyond theory, I'd imagine, because the Shivans don't seem to have any interest in capturing intelligence documents or transports (let alone planetary research installations), so there'd have to be something physical to attract them to it.   To pique the Shivans' interest, I'd imagine, it'd need to exist and be detectable.  Which would raise the question as to what it was, particularly as the Shivan equivalent involved 80 5km long vessels whose apparent overreaching (given that the flexibility of those 'arms' on the Sath IMO indicates they were developed for this) purpose wasn't apparent until the end of FS2.

The Ancients were, so far as we know, the masters of subspace, posessing the most advanced technologies related to that method of travel of any group. They managed to bridge the gap between galaxies, prop open nodes even the Shivans could not travel through. We aren't sure the Shivans even know how to build a Knossos (improbable though it is they wouldn't, with all the time they've had to stare at them). Subspace is a medium the Shivans are intensely interested in. They don't care a whit for the technology of the GTVA, true. But if the Ancients had developed subspace technologies more advanced then the Shivans themselves, I don't see why they would not have picked the pockets of their dead enemies.

Well, we don't know if the Shivans couldn't use the Knossos.  They certainly used other unstable nodes, including attacking through Vega.  It's also unclear what prompted their incursion into Gamma Draconis anyways, and whether they were on their way and held up by the inactive Knossos, or not even going to use it until the Trinity popped up, etc.  Or even how unstable the node was pre-Knossos activation, and whether the Shivans could have used it regardless.  So IMO it's highly debatable whether the ancients were any more advanced at the actual art of subspace travel; for all we know the Shivans could have seen the Knossos as some sort of unnatural abomination they simply didn't want to build.

Subspace is the one area of technology that the Shivans have a serious, insurmountable advantage over the GTVA in, the critical area, because if all things were equal in this category then the Shivans would have GTVA-esque jump accuracy, and their Ravana would show up in the wrong place and get trashed by the Lysander and Actium, or Sathanas 17 would be pointing the wrong way when it jumped in and the Colossus would get to use up a lot of red paint on a second Sathanas silhuotte. This is the single most critical element of Shivan superiority, they need to maintain their edge in this technology above all others. If they cannot, then all those attack-oriented designs start to look a lot less appealling. Encountering the Ancients, who were at least their equal in subspace terms, probably came as a rude surprise, and the need to stay ahead of anyone else would have made the Shivans at least examine Ancients technology in detail, if not adopt any of it.

'At least their equal', to me, seems highly assumptive.  The Knossos might be an impressive piece of kit, but it's surely not on the same level as, say, travelling a highly unstable node (or even the level of collapsing a star).  To me, developing the Knossos is indicative of a reduced, not enhanced, capacity for the actual act of subspace travel which led to a necessity to bring nodes 'up to standard'.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Ancients tried to seal off the Shivans via the Knossos, only to have them slip in via multiple other, supposedly untravelable nodes.  Of course, going into wild speculation mode, we don't know the effect of the Sol node collapse upon those Fs1-used nodes; given the non-relativistic distances of subspace, it's possible they were sealed or too far destabilised for even the Shivans.

[AlphaOne]

WEll the fact thet the Ancients had the knossos dowsnt necesaryli mean that they were less technologicly advanced. Maibe they used the knossos just to stabalize node that were similar to the one leadng to SOL i mean way to trashe for even the shivans to travel through. Also i would imagine they also used these knossos in order to bringup to standar(civilian standard) the jump noda stabylity. I mean it would be useless to produce thousands of ships civilian ships carryng suplies and what know when u can stabilazi the node itself. Sure it mai seem like a waste of money in the short term but then again when you think of it in time it is very worth while.