[Mars]

Oops, anyhow, I would have expected at least 1 billion

[aldo_14]

Oops, anyhow, I would have expected at least 1 billion

Well, bear in mind that you've only had, what, less than a hundred years of space travel?  And then tag on the TV War, and the loss of the Sol / Vasuda prime systems in the Great War, of course.

[AlphaOne]

Ummm and how many of theme actualy survived..?? I seem to remember the shivans actualy taking down any transport atempting to exit the sistem.

Also I do not expect that the GTVA fleet was composed of 50-60 destroyers but rather something like 40 or them. 

Also I should really start detailing more mi arguements. And improve mi spelling. Sorry about the head hurts guis. I can only imagine the horror on the faces of some of people around here when the see me posting something and i must thank you for repliing to them . So...thanx!

Since the GTVA milatary had these great losses why not incorporate at least a part of the capellan refugees into the milatary?? they will be more then willing to join since I believe they craving for blood, shivan blood that is. I believe this weill somehow speedup the rebuilding procces of the GTVA milatary forces. They dont have to go around looking for volunteers

Also I never said they would actualy rebuild all of their lost warships within a 3- year period. I believe that the complete replacement of the GTVA lost warships would take from 6-10 years. The actual relocation of the capellan survivors would take some 3 years.

Also could it be possible to relocate some of the industry from the star sistems which have shortages in the workforce to the sistems where you have unemployment?? Sure there would be actual training of the people involved in various aspects of those industries but I dont believe all the capellan survicors are highschool dropouts. many of them would actualy be skilled in some area. Could this increase the procces of putting back on track the GTVA which was more or less derailed by the war???

Its just an idea and a question.

[Nuclear1]

Since the GTVA milatary had these great losses why not incorporate at least a part of the capellan refugees into the milatary?? they will be more then willing to join since I believe they craving for blood, shivan blood that is. I believe this weill somehow speedup the rebuilding procces of the GTVA milatary forces. They dont have to go around looking for volunteers

You do know that the whole point of collapsing the Capella nodes and the GTVA abandoning the system was to make sure that there weren't any Shivans to fight, right?

Of course the Shivans inflicted heavy casualties on both the civilans and the military, but even if the Shivans had slaughtered half of Capella's population, that's still 125,000,000 civilians needing homes, jobs, and medical treatment after the war.

Also could it be possible to relocate some of the industry from the star sistems which have shortages in the workforce to the sistems where you have unemployment?? Sure there would be actual training of the people involved in various aspects of those industries but I dont believe all the capellan survicors are highschool dropouts. many of them would actualy be skilled in some area. Could this increase the procces of putting back on track the GTVA which was more or less derailed by the war???

The Capellan civilians aren't all exactly going to rush back into work right after the end of the war. Sure, a lot of them are equipped and trained for certain tasks, but what is there to say that a lot fo them are physically or mentally ready to start working? Think of the hundreds or thousands of civilians that are likely physically crippled as a result of the damage sustained to their transports, or the ones that were already in poor physical condition before the evacuation. It's not to be expected that civilians that have just survived one of the most vicious onslaughts in the history of the human race are going to get out without loss of limb or other harm.

Even more damning is the mental anguish suffered by thousands of the refugees. It doesn't take much for hundreds of millions of people to realize that their home is gone forever, and that millions of their friends, families, and comrades are also gone. The ones that don't turn suicidal will likely be mentally scarred for a very long time, and may not even be able to return to the workforce for a long time afterwards.

[TrashMan]

Where is Trashman when you need him!???

Here I come to save the daaaaaaay!

----------------

Strange how there are somewhat conflicting in-game texts..

"The Allied fleet  has been pulverized" from the briefing, and the end game debrief said "We lost half the fleet"
I assume the word "fleet" here has a double meaning - as a total fleet (all of the GTVA warships) and a local fleet (the one in Capella)

the rebellion caused casualties and the weakening of the fleet, and the loss of a system really isn't that big of a blow. I can forsee no problems in relocating hte refugees, since tehy are all in transports anyway, you just have to point them towards a suitable destinations.. the GTVA is big, so there are more then enough planets among which to distribute them.
Building housing and other necessities for them, as well as fixing whatever damage there was in the 3 rebel systems means lots of jobs. The shipyards of hte GTVA have remained in tact, and it has again aquired those in Polaris and Regulus so rebuilding the fleet shouldn't be the problem either.

A Economical collapse is not realyl that likely. As long as money circles around nicely and the GTVA gets their share from taxs, all is well. Well..allmost
Pay companies to build stuff and then tax the companies to get that money circling back to your pocket and out again.

Let's be real, the GTVA is in for a rough ride but hte worst part is over.

[aldo_14]

Ummm and how many of theme actualy survived..?? I seem to remember the shivans actualy taking down any transport atempting to exit the sistem.

Considering they started evacuating before the first Sathanas arrived?

Not forgetting the hundreds of thousands - if not millions - displaced by the NTF rebellion, of course.  As mentioned, I think, in the first couple of missions when you are escorting Vasudan refugee transports.

Also I do not expect that the GTVA fleet was composed of 50-60 destroyers but rather something like 40 or them. 

And yet, despite facing an onslaught by the greatest enemy in their history, these were withheld from the front lines?

Bear in mind, of course, the NTF both had taken and had destroyed some of these prior to the Shivans arrival.

Since the GTVA milatary had these great losses why not incorporate at least a part of the capellan refugees into the milatary?? they will be more then willing to join since I believe they craving for blood, shivan blood that is. I believe this weill somehow speedup the rebuilding procces of the GTVA milatary forces. They dont have to go around looking for volunteers Tongue

1/ Conscription?  Of refugees?  That's scarcely going to go down well - 'oh look, we've lost and your homes were destroyed, now get out and fighter for us!'.
2/No Shivans to fight.  that, and the whole 'it'd be suicide' type bit.  Y'know, like Austria declaring war on Russia immediately after the end of WW2 to keep the civvies busy.
3/Those refugees which are capable to serve in the military would need to have ships to serve on, and would need training.  And training needs facilities, supplies, etc; a whole supply chain that has to be built to service the military and *shock* funded.
4/ And how many refugees would accept conscription without first ensuring their family are housed, clothed and fed?

Also I never said they would actualy rebuild all of their lost warships within a 3- year period. I believe that the complete replacement of the GTVA lost warships would take from 6-10 years. The actual relocation of the capellan survivors would take some 3 years.

Any reason for these dates?  Y'know, given that the best value for an Orions' construction is 3 years......and the likely lack of facilities and supply chains for such a rapid build.

Also could it be possible to relocate some of the industry from the star sistems which have shortages in the workforce to the sistems where you have unemployment?? Sure there would be actual training of the people involved in various aspects of those industries but I dont believe all the capellan survicors are highschool dropouts. many of them would actualy be skilled in some area. Could this increase the procces of putting back on track the GTVA which was more or less derailed by the war???

Relocation, rather expensive.  Not to mention the rather obvious problem that you'd just be moving unemployment and economic problems somewhere else.  IT's a bit like spending a few million pounds to move 1 million people of the dole in London, by sacking another million in Bristol and moving all their factories, etc down there.

And that's assuming these aren't private industries, which they are.  I doubt RNI will take very kindly to being made to shift their industry to take in unskilled or inexperienced (in at the least their manner of operations) workers.

@TM; you do realise, you can't just plonk someone down even in the middle of, say, the Amazon (a biodiverse and perfectly inhabitable placE) and expect them to survive and prosper unaided.  That's excluding the likelihood that earth-style planets are quite rare, of course.  And even if we turn to existing colonies, you still need housing and whatnot; and depending on the existing resources and self-containment of that planet, it may be very difficult to take in all those people (imagine a multi-million strong refugee camp).  Oh, and earth-like (habitable) planets are quite rare, the transports being used may be required for other vital purposes (having been conscripted for an emergency), so you'll be under pressure to shift them very quickly, and then there's the politics of putting that many people on any planet due to the local governments concerns.......

[Mars]

I assume the word "fleet" here has a double meaning - as a total fleet (all of the GTVA warships) and a local fleet (the one in Capella)

Isn't that a kind of big assumption?

A Economical collapse is not realyl that likely. As long as money circles around nicely and the GTVA gets their share from taxs, all is well. Well..allmost
Pay companies to build stuff and then tax the companies to get that money circling back to your pocket and out again.

Let's be real, the GTVA is in for a rough ride but hte worst part is over.

The money doesn't flow in an economic depression, we know that. Why won't there be an economic depression? All indications are that the money is drying up for the GTVA, they have 250 million new mouths to feed, three or four fleets to rebuild, a Knossos gate to build... there's a lot they need to do, and I don't know they have the money to do it.

[TrashMan]

the second shivan invasion takes place rather quickly. Everything happens rather fast. From the apperance of the first Sath to the destruction of the Capella - was it a week?
And let's not forget the intensity of hte evacuation. It's safe to assume that it dropped after the Sath destruction and picked up massivly after the Saths started coming. Lets not forget the difference between the time you start the evacuation (give orders) and the time it actualyl starts full force.
You have lot's to prepare - to gather ships and supplies from across the GTVA, and ready camps.

Now Argos and Heraphiliuses are not that big so you can't realyl transport that many people at a time. Let's not forget other cargo that was allso transfered.  And that Shivans were hitting every convoy going for the node with great sucess  (remember the 70th blue lions first briefing?)

I don't think many Capellans survived...few millions maby.

But even if it was more you don't just plonk them all at one place - you distribute them among all the other planets ... 100000 people for a technologicly advanced planet is no big deal....

[aldo_14]

Even assuming only, say, 10% survived, that requires 250 habitable planets.   Not likely by any estimation I've ever heard.

Again, the evacuation started when the first Sathanas arrived.  That was well before the Shivans were in control of Capella - otherwise the GTVA wouldn't have been confident enough to go back into the nebula.

[Sarafan]

Ok, I think were underestimating the capability of the GTVA to cope with this problems. First, the building of an terran Knossos wouldnt be a priority for many years to come both because of resources and much research in that technology would have to be made before an prototype. Second, the GTVA has enough territory to settle this refugees (systems like Wolf 359, Barnard's Star, Luyten, etc, would be good places) and would undoubtly aid them enough so that they would prosper (unlike the brazilian government does to the people living in the Amazon or anywhere, trust me, I know). Third, it doesnt have a earth type planet, it would simply have to be able to sustain human life. Fourth, since the evacuation started when the first Sathanas arrived, the number of refugees who survived would be considerable (at least, almost half of the 250 million).Fifth,  I agree with the idea that AlphaOne said into converting the Fenris into transports for civilians and materials, doing so would speed up the process of relocation for the refugees. Even saying all that, I still think that it would take another 20-30 years (this is based on my personal opinion and estimative) for the GTVA to fully or achieve near full recover. Anyway, they would be entering a second recostruction age.

[Mars]

I still want to see a Fenris with the Charybdis's AWACs dome on it instead of the Radar Dish, there's a good use for it... except that the Charybdis already has 2000 more hitpoints.


And I am pleased to announce that this is my 700th post (and 100,000,000,000th edit)

[Sarafan]

Congratulations on your 700th post then.

Actually, a good idea would be to do that on a Leviathan and upgrade its engines so ti would be faster. Or you could simply add more armor to the Fenris.

[Shade]

That would be hard, given that a Leviathan is in fact just a Fenris with some of the engine capacity and weight considerations dropped for heavier armour and weapons. Give it more engines and reduce weight again to improve speed, and you just end up with a Fenris.

Anyways, left alone and secure the GTVA would certainly recover in a reasonable time frame. The problem though is that they're not likely to feel secure (why would they? The Shivans are persistant bastards) and as such will probably concentrate more on getting some form of viable military up and running again instead of focusing exclusively on effective reconstruction and resettlement. Building up a military effectively from scratch takes a lot of time, effort and resources, and that has to come from somewhere.

[Mars]

I started a campagin (that sucked) that involved a Leviathan that had been stolen by pirates in (some remote system) and outfitted with a top of the line Vasudan reactor core, and a Vasudan beam cannon.

[Sarafan]

Then the best choice is the Aeolus, since it excels both cruisers, altought an AWACS dome on it wouldnt really look well.

[Nuclear1]

Now Argos and Heraphiliuses are not that big so you can't realyl transport that many people at a time. Let's not forget other cargo that was allso transfered.  And that Shivans were hitting every convoy going for the node with great sucess  (remember the 70th blue lions first briefing?)

The Hippocrates is actually quite big according to the Tech Description:

Terrans developed the GTM Hippocrates early in the post-war Reconstruction period. With the outbreak of the NTF insurgency, the GTVA has once again called the Hippocrates into active military service. Its on-board facilities provide state-of-the-art medical care to thousands of patients. Hippocrates also help transport refugees out of contested systems into the safety of Allied-controlled regions. The unusual design of the Hippocrates enables its crew to isolate sections of the ship quickly in the event of quarantine or hull breach.

It's also safe to say that if an Argo can carry replacement parts for the engines of a Hecate, they can also carry a fair number of passengers ("hundreds" according to Lambda 1 in "Exodus"). Even in the first Blue Lions mission, with two Argos and a Hippocrates, it's fair to say that a couple of thousand of civilians were being evacuated in that one convoy, and if the GTVA had been evacuating continuously for nearly a week with convoys of that size, several hundreds of thousands of civilians will likely have been cleared out by the time the Shivans begin their big push.

And let's not forget the intensity of hte evacuation. It's safe to assume that it dropped after the Sath destruction and picked up massivly after the Saths started coming.

I highly doubt this. According to Admiral Ahmose, the evacuation proceeded "as planned" after the destruction of the Sathanas, and with the nebula not fully secure, I'm sure the GTVA was making sure that systems within close range of the nebula were clear of any civilians should something go terribly wrong again. Of course, the evacuation would have escalated once news of the second Sathanas had reached Command, but in a week's time and with steady evacuation, it's likely that many millions of Capellans had already been evacuated by this time.

Aldo also brings up a good point about the hundreds of thousands of refugees from the NTF regime, particularly the Vasudans attempting to flee the genocide in the NTF systems. Even if the Capellan refugees aren't that numerous, the GTVA still has to find a way to rebuild the homes on Cygnus Prime and the habitable planets in the former NTF systems. The ground battles alone launched to retake the planets likely did a fair amount of collateral damage to warrant massive reconstruction projects.

[Mars]

Well, the thing was, it was a Leviathan with green glow maps, and I didn't want to try and reskin the Aeolus.

[Sarafan]

About the NTF refugees, the GTVA would already be handling their situation during the rebellion and the start and middle of the second great war so that their situation would on a far more stable level, altought their impact cant be underestimated it definitely wouldnt as great as of the capellan refugees.

What exactly do you want to do with a cruiser, Mars?

[Mars]

Make it an AWACs cruiser from the Fenris, nevermind, it was way off topic...

a cookie to anyone who sees the irony of that statement.

[AlphaOne]

People seem to forget about one very important thing:-the GTVA rebuilt they civilization from almost nothing. They had very little industry to help them, they had very few shiopyards, very few research instalations, very few resources to begin with. And yet they not only managed to get theyr acto toghether bu also modernise they fleets increase its size...colonize new planets hell they even had the money and the time to build the freaking Collie.

All this happened in just 35 years time. And you are gooing to tell me that they can not relocate several milion people and actualy start replenishing they fleets?? Hell no i dont buy that one bit.

Oh and lets not forget that there was an acual evacuation of Vasuda if I do remember corectly and while most of the population could not be evacuated in time there were at least several hundreds of milions of vasudans that managed to escape the destruction of theyr homeworld. While the other bilions died.

Oh and dont go around telling me that the vasudans actualy could relocate several hundreds of milions of refugeez on other planets cuz well they had the housing and jobs and stuff.

Also since you asked me where do i get mi figures about actual contruction time and relocation and other stuff like that Aldo, can u tell me where you got the 3 yea build time period for the Orion?

Also who said anything about conscripting the refugeez into the army??? Hell i'm willing to bet you will find several hundreds of thousand of volunteers right there simpli by placing a few recruiting offices aroun ther handing out flyers. Sure not all of them would be accepted but then agin they dont have to be all accepted. Also Aldo you were saing something about the actual training of the crews...:
-while the ship is built could it be imaginable to think that you would actualy be training the crews?? oh my God what an absurd idea right??? Hell they dont even have to have a ship by the time they are finished training they can just keep on taining and stuff like that inceasing thery skills until the ship is actualy ready.

-I dont believe that someone handling the amunition would actualy be taking several years to train on how to loead and unload missiles/bombs etc. Crew training would ake time but not that long.

Also i believe trained crews and trained pilots is something the GTVA will need and the capellans would be more then happy to volunteer. Also I dont believe that every single refugee is married or has a child or family even if 100.000 people are all single without any other obligation that is still enough to actualy replace some of the crews in time.

I believe that trained crews would acualy be a more serious problem then the lack of ships cuz well i dont believe that a crew actualy has a pemanent position on a ship with the ship docking while they have a 3 moth shoreleave form several years of patroling or something like that. I beleive crews are actualy rotated every 6 or 8 months.

As for fighter pilots those are the real problem. I believe that the GTVA would actualy be building fighters/bommbers etc faster then they can put a pilot in the cockpit train them and send them off to they duties.

Also this would be a great idea to actualy reactivate some of those retired Orions everyone has heard about. And no they wont actualy be stripped for parts. They will most liekli go into a state of preservation just in case. I know for sure that at least the navy does that at least with some of its ships and the airforce as well with some of its airplanes. You never know when you could use a few extra planes or ships.

Oh can i have a cookie?? I see it its ontopic by a thin tread of silk