[Flipside]

Actually, Israel suffered some of it's heaviest military losses for quite a while yesterday, a total of 10 soldiers killed
Also, it's all very well dropping leaflets saying 'Stay away from Hezbollah positions', however, the assumption is made that the civilians are somehow in league with Hezbollah and therefore know where these 'positions' are. For an Urban warfare group, I suspect those position change on a daily basis. Everyone is using stereotype to define everyone else, and the end result is dead people.

[Fear]

Yea,i was aware to those soldiers loss aswell,though in the last few days, only civilians are getting hurt.

[aldo_14]

I think you are all missing some main points, israel doesn't mean to harm any lebanon civilian(dont forget they did published an annoucment which they write clearly to those citiziens to get the hell away from where the terroists act),though to beat the terroists they(IDF) have to destroy thier foundation(Oil,Electricty) which does harm the civlian-normal-life, that's true but it serve two purposes : 1. it's acctually stoping some of the missles.
                                                                                           2.it makes the citizien to hate the terroists acts which     
                                                                                              causing them those situations.
In the other hand the terroists are skiping the fighting agaisnt thier acctually enemy and preffer to just shoot the israel civilians,only today 12 people are injured,yesterday they reached to haifa hurting and disturbing the life of those who are far from the "war". 7 ketyushot here, 6 there,8 here,3 there,explosive in the mall,and such. this is the 21 century type of war, its a new kind of war which i blame the arabs for.

By the way trashman i think you should better go to read your books and tolkien.

Well, you can say that, except if you're killing lots of civillians accidentally, in response to the actions of a select few, in what way is that morally ok?  I mean, Israel has vowed to turn the clock back on Lebananon by '20 years', and targeted key infrastructure.  If that's not collective punishment, what is?

I'd note, though that 1) it's also seen the deepest missile strike ever and 2) it's only going to raise support for the likes of Hizbollah as, let's face it, who are you more likely to hate - the foreigners bombing your cities, or the people attacking those foreigners?  For many Arabs, Israels actions are terrorism, and they justify the targeting of civillians as the only response possible under the light of massive military inferiority in a straight fight.  Same as people find it ok to kick a bully in the nuts.

[Rictor]

First they go back into Gaza to get back one soldier, and now they bomb and invade Lebanon to get back two soldiers. Something doesn't add up. It doesn't make sense, the reaction isn't proportional to the action. There must be something else, some publically unknown reason for this, or else Olmert is just trying to look tough so he'll be taken seriously.

[Flipside]

I do believe a lot of it is to do with Olmert trying to prove that he may be moderate but that doesn't mean he's a walkover. I think this is as much as 'message' to his own hardliners in government as to the surrounding countries.

[Fear]

Aldo everything has 2 faces, ofcourse some people will now even want to make the terrorism even worse,but some, as i saied will hate the one who are resposible to why the war began. Its better than the default situation which evey civilian in lebanon support terrorism. the thing is, some of you like trashman for example is living in thier own peaceful reality, which gives you no right to judge israel acts(nor lebanon in that matter).

[aldo_14]

Aldo everything has 2 faces, ofcourse some people will now even want to make the terrorism even worse,but some, as i saied will hate the one who are resposible to why the war began.

I can't think of a country in history, offhand, where the response to invasion and bombardment by a foreign force (as the result of an effective 3rd party action, too), has resulted in that country turning inwards on itself rather than against the invader.  nor can I think of a likely situation where the death of civillians as 'collateral' damage results in the family blaming anyone other than the person dropping the bombs.

After all, we've seen pretty definitively that this whole concept of turning people against terrorists (or similar asymmetric forces) by, er, bombing the **** out of the people never works.  It failed in Palestine, it failed in Afghanistan (twice), it failed in Vietnam, and it's failed in Iraq.  And it will keep failing.

Its better than the default situation which evey civilian in lebanon support terrorism. the thing is, some of you like trashman for example is living in thier own peaceful reality, which gives you no right to judge israel acts(nor lebanon in that matter).

Perhaps being in a neutral, uninvolved country makes us perfect judges.  How many trials, for example, pick the judge and jury from the victims' and accuseds' families?

I find it interesting that you make the blanket accusation that every Lebanese person supports terrorism; not only do I doubt that is true, it sounds disturbingly like an excuse for the occuring and inevitable civillian deaths.

[Flipside]

Well, I'll disagree with the opinion that every civilian in Lebanon supports Terrorism, if that was the case, then I think you'd have a much bigger problem on your hands than you already do. In countries such as ours we can stand up and speak out (and, on occasion, vanish, but that's another matter) but many countries such as Lebanon, that luxury is seriously curtailed. I suspect a lot of Lebanese civilians are too concerned with staying alive to develop political positions. I think that's one of those stereotypes that does so much damage.

Israel has every right to protect it's interests, but by equal quantities, so does Lebanon. Many of these countries, however, need to get their leadership in order and stop provoking, things were looking hopeful for a little while, what with the referendum in Palestine etc, but, as usual, small groups with chips on their shoulders have ruined everything. Part of me wishes Israel hadn't risen to the bait, but lacking any other suggestion for what they could have done, I really don't know what to suggest, the problem is, I think they've been led around by the nose in this case, and the radical groups have got exactly the reaction from Israel that they were trying to achieve.

[aldo_14]

Well, I'll disagree with the opinion that every civilian in Lebanon supports Terrorism, if that was the case, then I think you'd have a much bigger problem on your hands than you already do. In countries such as ours we can stand up and speak out (and, on occasion, vanish, but that's another matter) but many countries such as Lebanon, that luxury is seriously curtailed. I suspect a lot of Lebanese civilians are too concerned with staying alive to develop political positions. I think that's one of those stereotypes that does so much damage.

Israel has every right to protect it's interests, but by equal quantities, so does Lebanon. Many of these countries, however, need to get their leadership in order and stop provoking, things were looking hopeful for a little while, what with the referendum in Palestine etc, but, as usual, small groups with chips on their shoulders have ruined everything. Part of me wishes Israel hadn't risen to the bait, but lacking any other suggestion for what they could have done, I really don't know what to suggest, the problem is, I think they've been led around by the nose in this case, and the radical groups have got exactly the reaction from Israel that they were trying to achieve.

I suspect the Hamas and Hizbollah leadership are rubbing their hands in delight justnow.  It's a perfect recruiting poster for them; they can say that Israel values the life of a single Israeli soldier above ever person in the Gaza strip, for example.

[Splinter]

The targeting systems between the M1 and the Merkava seem to be of reasonably equal capacity; the M1 can kill a target 2 kilometers away on the move.

Not even close... Don't let what's allowed to be written fool you. most MK4 tank commanders don't even know the full capabilities of thier tanks let alone what false information the army gives the press about thier best technologies.

I just wonder what type of tank was the one destroyed by the mine - one of the older M60s? Can even be an IFV, the press seems to think of anything with armor, tracks and a turret as a tank.

In the end the mine was 250kg and the tank that was destroyed was the oldest still employed by the IDF the Merkava 2b... let's just say with what I know of the MK4 the end result would have been drastically diffrent. I'm not saying the tank would have survived without a scratch (I'm not saying it wouldn't have either) but lets say the crew at least would have survived.

I saw the pictures of what happened to that tank and what they told me (and I relayed to Sandwich) was that there was nothing larger then my head left... well there was. there was an area around the engine block a good H4'xW6'xD2'x of the people... well there were a coupld of dogtags there was a shoe that was split in half and held together by one of the laces. there was a finger and a black glob of scorched human remains with red poking through herer and there... but the worst was a  picture of a rougly 3 foot square sheet of armour with the body of someone litteraly melted onto it or fused with it or something there were no cloths left on him/it and you could barley make out a lump that was part of his head we think. the rest was simple black and red.

Does anyone knows some place with pictures of the Merkava? And if possible the current arsenal of the Israel military?

I have some pictures of the MK4 that I took while in basic... I'll just have to find a place to upload them. As for arsenal you can forget about it

Now, is it just me or do the engine ports, given that intended role, look uncomfortably vulnerable to the old 'burning gasoline soaked rag' trick that takes out Leopard 1 tanks in minutes by overheating their engine?

That's of course assuming that those nice, juicy looking engine ports are in fact that, and not some decoy put there to attract attention - Something which I would be not at all surprised by given that it's an Israeli design

They have a meshy metal thingy covering that is bolted in on the tanks that are used in the field.... that one is just for show.

Unselectivly.
Destroying bridges, leaving a million people wihtout power and water in the desert, during summer - now THAT is a crime.

If the IDF Unselectivly targeted the terrorists the word Palestinian would be as extinct as the T-rex a couple of decades ago.
Yes destroying bridges... those bridges bridge the east and west sides of the Gaza strip by destroying them and the airport there the IDF litterally cut thier search in half. as for the power that will be turned back on when they want to give us back our soldier and the water as well... of course water is being provided every day for the palestinians by the IDF but this way the terrorists ahve to make that much more effort to get thier daily needs by getting somone not wanted who will risk helping them and taking more water then he would need for himself and his family.

First they go back into Gaza to get back one soldier, and now they bomb and invade Lebanon to get back two soldiers. Something doesn't add up. It doesn't make sense, the reaction isn't proportional to the action. There must be something else, some publically unknown reason for this, or else Olmert is just trying to look tough so he'll be taken seriously.

In the past the blows traded have been even or tilted in thier favour. Hizbollah would send a couple of katyushas we would air strike a couple of thier outposts. hamas would capture a soldier then sell us back his body at the price of hundreds of terrorists from our prisons.

We have said enough is enough we are laying the smackdown on them and saying 'no more' you take a soldier we will quite litterally pound the **** out of you and make your life unbearable till you give him back. Hizbollah now attacked us with rockets killed soldiers and captured 2 more... this is the way things will work now we wont be pussy footing around these terrorists. they will give us back our soldiers or they will die. simple.

[Fear]

Hmm the thing is, you are only getting part of the information, a part which the media would think its enough intersting you to see,in the other hand the people that are living there , know what the hell happens.
And yes the terroists got exactly want they wanted from israel, they knew israel will not trade prisoners and therfore, attempt to retrive them in thier own way. which then will lead to the idea that the terroists have no choise and now must fire ketiyushes,in order to save thier people and to stand for their rights.

P.s splinter 
 

[vyper]

See, as much as I'd love to take the moral high ground here... if this were a British boy I'd be saying the same thing as Splinter.

[aldo_14]

See, as much as I'd love to take the moral high ground here... if this were a British boy I'd be saying the same thing as Splinter.

Well, yeah, I thought the same during the IRAs' terror campaigns during the 1980s.

But appealing as all-out 'wrath of god' style revenge is, it simply doesn't work unless you move into all out totalitarian repression.  Hell, I would not be surprised* if it was the Israeli reaction to Shalits' kidnapping that prompted Hizbollah; these are people (terrorists) that welcome bringing suffering onto their own, after all, as it furthers their 'cause'.

*ok, technically, it's bloody obvious that's why they did it

[karajorma]

2.it makes the citizien to hate the terroists acts which causing them those situations.

That's called collective punishment and it's exactly the same reasoning terrorists use. The idea behind terrorism is to pursuade the citizens of the terrorised country to become so sick of the killing of civilians and hate their politicians so much for putting them through it that they'll be disposed and replaced with someone more amenable to the terrorists demands.

Glad to see that at least one person realises that this is Israel's true goal in all this.

[Colonol Dekker]

That is why they're called Terrorists............

[Nuclear1]

Crazy people..

The Palestinian extremists and the Isreali government and military should all be rounded up and shot.
And then we wpould have peace.

Every Israeli male is required to serve at least three years in the military, and women two, with some exceptions. By rounding up the entire government and military and killing them all isn't a solution--it's essentially genocide.

There must be something else, some publically unknown reason for this,

Oh, come now, this has been culminating ever since 1973 when Israel was first faced with giving up land. Israel's given up more than enough land to the Palestinians and the other Arab nations, but the Arab world is still unsatisfied. They've been conducting terror attacks in Israel ever since the '73 war ended, and Israel is finally standing up and saying enough is enough. The Middle East would be a lot better without Hezbollah in power, and that's exactly what Israel means to accomplish.

[aldo_14]

There must be something else, some publically unknown reason for this,

Oh, come now, this has been culminating ever since 1973 when Israel was first faced with giving up land. Israel's given up more than enough land to the Palestinians and the other Arab nations, but the Arab world is still unsatisfied. They've been conducting terror attacks in Israel ever since the '73 war ended, and Israel is finally standing up and saying enough is enough. The Middle East would be a lot better without Hezbollah in power, and that's exactly what Israel means to accomplish.

Except in doing so, Israel is weakening any hope whatsoever of the elected Lebanese government (who are not Hezbollah, and have very much been caught out by this, and have precisely bugger all control) being able to disarm or even curb Hizbollah.  Let's not forget; it's not the Lebanese army in the south, it's Hezbollach militias.  Now, Hezbollah did bring it upon themselves by kidnapping those soldiers, but Israels actions will only strengthen Hezbollahs aim to depict themselves as 'defenders of the people' or somesuch.

[TrashMan]

Maybe "most Arabs" would be happy with Israel pulling back, maybe they wouldn't.  But we're not talking about "most Arabs" here, are we?  Hamas' charter includes the goal of utterly annihilating the state of Israel.  This is the same Hamas that was elected into the Palestinian parliament.  Now THAT's madness. 

You speak about "unselectively" targeting civilains.  So, I guess strapping some C4 stuffed with nails onto yourself and blowing yourself up in a shopping mall doesn't count, does it?  What's worse: leaving people without power, or murdering them in cold blood?  Like I said, Israel's done thier share to contribute to this whole mess, but in my eyes, at least, the blame scale tips pretty heavily onto a group of certain fanatics.  Maybe with all of this, the majority of the Palestinian people will finally figure out that supporting the terrorists among them only results in suffering.  If groups like Hamas and Hezbollah lost all public support, we wouldn't be in this situation, now would we?

Yes, that's true.. But I don't what you're aiming at - I never condoned or supported Palestinian terrorism. If side A kills civilians that doesn't make it ok for side B to do the same.

Are you a lunatic, or just misinformed?

I could ask you the same question....

I would agree you can't punish everyone for the actions of a few. On the other hand if a minority in country X is attacking country Y and country X is doing nothing about it, I call that an act of agression on the part of country X. Under those circumstances country Y is perfectly within it's rights to defend itself.

You have one problem here - who is to determine if hte country is doing enough? What evidence are in play? See the problem?
Country Y can just say that X isn't doing enough no matter what they do and attack.

Aldo everything has 2 faces, ofcourse some people will now even want to make the terrorism even worse,but some, as i saied will hate the one who are resposible to why the war began. Its better than the default situation which evey civilian in lebanon support terrorism. the thing is, some of you like trashman for example is living in thier own peaceful reality, which gives you no right to judge israel acts(nor lebanon in that matter).

My own universe? Cute... but incorrect.
I see you're throwing away your people generalisation again.. "EVERY cvilian in Lebanon supprts terrorism"
that is so wrong I can't even begin to say how much.

So you don't like what I have to say and that automaticly means that I have no right to judge Israel? Let's assume your'e right - who has then? You?
Do you have the right to judge palstinians?

Wake up and smell the coffie - the roots of this conflict run deep in both sides and I really don't see a happy ending. Both governments need to be removed from power (permanently)...then maby...

[TrashMan]

Crazy people..

The Palestinian extremists and the Isreali government and military should all be rounded up and shot.
And then we wpould have peace.

Every Israeli male is required to serve at least three years in the military, and women two, with some exceptions. By rounding up the entire government and military and killing them all isn't a solution--it's essentially genocide.

I mean the upper echelons.. the big fish. The ones who actually are responsible for hte needless deaths.

[Unknown Target]

Not quite sure what was discussed beforehand, as I am just popping into this thread and have not read the previous pages, however I was discussing this with a few of my classmates here at JSA and we think this stands a serious chance of exploding into a worldwide conflict, and at the very least will involve the US. This war with Lebanon threatens to destabalize the entire region, as multiple alliances are called in and "freedom fighters" come to the call of the battle, creating a very WWI-esque situation.