Author Topic: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?  (Read 25390 times)

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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Religion is the opium of the masses, Old quote we all know it, but it stands true.

BTW the Crusades wasn't antoi-social, Its just Millwall wasn'yt around back then :D
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Religion is the opiate of the masses.
Fixed. I wuv communism.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Da comrade !
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Quote
Christians: you show me why you disbelieve in every god but yours, and I'll show you how easy it is to simply go one more.

I believe in other gods.  I just don't worship them.

that's a contradiction

No, it's not.

Believing in the existence of other gods but putting the Christian God above all others is exactly what the First Commandment is about: "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods before me." I've also heard 'gods' used as a reference to anything worldly being given greater priority than the Christian God, such as money, career, etc.

Acknowledging the existence of other gods that are not be worshipped is nothing new; Hindus, Shintos, and Buddhists in particular acknowledge the existence of many gods, but many of them (or in some cases, none of them) are venerated by the religion. For Christians, acknowledging the existence of other gods as part of God's creation isn't necessarily blasphemous or contradictory; it's blasphemous to worship them, however.


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Also, you said God exists outside the universe. Where in the Bible, or any previous holy books, does it say that?

If God created the universe, he couldn't have been contained by it.  QED.

so sayeth you - fallicious argumentum ad verecundiam

humans create cars, but they can be contained by them

Humans can't be permanently contained by cars, though.  Humans can open a door, sit in a car, and close the door, but they also have the option of opening the door and getting back out.  Your argument says that humans create cars, but aren't permanently contained in the car once it's complete.  Humans can enter or exit a car when they please, through the door, window, or otherwise.  Goob is saying that God created the universe, but he isn't permanently contained by the universe, and that God can enter or leave the universe if he pleases.

In a temporary sense, you're absolutely right, Kazan; humans can be restricted to a car and therefore whatever they can do in that car for a certain period of time, and when God inhabits the universe, he is contained by the universe.  However, both humans and God have the option of simply leaving their contained areas.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 03:40:40 pm by nuclear1 »
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
*agrees with nuclear1*

As for this:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?” - Epicurus

Epicurus failed to take into account time.  God can and will put an end to evil at the end of days, but there are long-term benefits that justify allowing evil in the short term.

One of them is maturity.  Fighting evil builds character, but if there were no evil to fight, there would be no opportunity to mature in this way.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Quote
Also, you said God exists outside the universe. Where in the Bible, or any previous holy books, does it say that?

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If God created the universe, he couldn't have been contained by it.  QED.

so sayeth you - fallicious argumentum ad verecundiam

humans create cars, but they can be contained by them

"I do not think that phrase means what you think it means."

Argumentum ad verecundium; appeal to unqualified authority. That's not happening here. There's no appeal to authority, let alone unqualified authority.

If any fallacy can be made it fit in that situation it would be hasty generalization, Kazan, and it can be made to fit to you, not Goober. To compare God to humans is something that simply can't work properly. You're comparing an omnipotent omniscient being to humans. Think about how very stupid that is for a few moments, will you?

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
So, the Universe is defined as a closed system containing everything that exists, under the natural laws.

Hang on... if God can manipulate the Universe, or enter or leave it, then he exists within it. Otherwise it's not a closed system. In fact, if God can affect the Universe in any way, then he is by definition part of that closed system and is therefore not beyond detection.

Note that this does not matter if he is supernatural or whatever. If the Universe is a closed system then only things within that system can affect it or be affected by it. That's the definition of 'closed system', regardless of the supernatural.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
*agrees with nuclear1*

As for this:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?” - Epicurus

Epicurus failed to take into account time.  God can and will put an end to evil at the end of days, but there are long-term benefits that justify allowing evil in the short term.

One of them is maturity.  Fighting evil builds character, but if there were no evil to fight, there would be no opportunity to mature in this way.

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Offline IPAndrews

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Religion is the opiate of the masses.
Fixed. I wuv communism.

I like Dekker's original version. I'm disappointed nobody has picked up on my earlier comment about Islam being like Christianity in the do unto others department though. In case anyone's interested in my opinion though, and I know nobody is, I agree with Kazan. So I'll just let him speak for me because I'm a lazy brit.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
I like Dekker's original version.
Irrelevant, it was a bloody mis-quote!


Edit: Nope, just checked, i'm wrong. ****ing Marx, 'opiate' sounds better. :doubt:

Still, might as well post the entire quote as food for thought:

Quote from: Karl Marx
    Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

    Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

    The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.
He makes a good point, no?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 06:12:31 am by Mefustae »

 

Offline IPAndrews

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
It's too late. Dekker owns you now. :P
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Silence, insolent fool! You dare question your God?

*Eyes glow*

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Quote from: Epicuros
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?”


Now, when we take the concepts of "good" and "evil" onto the desk, the debate turns very very complicated.

You have to take into account that good and evil are subjective things created by human mind, and much like moral system (concept of right and wrong), everyone has their individual, unique concept of what is good and what is bad.

Evil as a term is a complex subject to analysis, but it can pretty much be summed up that good and evil are much like light and shadow.

If there is no light, there is no shadow either. It's just dark. But as soon as there is light, there are also shadows - unless the light is in the middle of a n empty room. Then there's just light. Existence of a shadow requires at least two things:

1. Light source
2. Object to cast shadow

If we also want to visualize the shadow, we also need a shade for projecting the shadow o, but tha's not important.


The analogy to good and evil is simple - if there are no differences in people's actions, there is no difference in "good" and "evil" actions. It's all indistinguishable mass of similar behaviour. To create concepts of "good" and "evil", there MUST be a contrast between different behaviour. A very slight difference would be enough.

Consider a small, peaceful village where everyone lives happily in consensus with each other. There are no controversies, as everyone is happy with their lot. Then, one of the villagers notices that his bucket has started to leak. He could get a new one from a shop, but he notices that his neigbour has a good bucket standing on the corner of his yard, so he stealthly goes and replaces the intact bucket with his own, broken one.

Now this is not really a major offensive, but think what it would look like to the hypothetical villagers. No one else has ever "circulated the damage", this is the first time. This villager decided it was an advantage to him to switch the buckets, and what more, he valued the advantage of his neighbour less than his own advantage.

Now this is the most evil thing anyone in the village has ever done, and it creates the necessary contrast to create separate concepts of good and evil.


Similarly, in a village where no one is specifically good and everyone behaves just the same, in a way that accentuates personal well-being. No one can leave their bucket around, 'cause someone would surely take it, and they know it - that's why they don't leave their things around, they lock their doors and they mark their cattle so it can't be as easily stolen. No one cares of each other, but just takes care of themselves in the best way.

In this society there's no real concept of evil and good either. If you steal something, you do, but so does everyone else so it's normal situation. Even if it goes as far as killing someone to get something, you would do it because you know that everyone else would do the same thing. This is alien to us, yes, but so is the number 1 village.

If someone in this "dark" village started to think that "heyyy, wtf are people doing to each other, peace bro", it would be a different behaviour model and it, too would create a contrast between different models, but still it would be up to the people of that village to name the behaviour models. Most likely they would name the old model as "normal" and the new as "strange". Good and evil can, as concepts, only exist in a society that includes both behaviour models.

So, according to this definition of evil (there are others, too), the only way to erase the evil from mankind would be to make all people act according to exact same guidelines, without exceptions. That would practically require destroying free will or perhaps just make the humanity to consist of one individual. Because differences in thinking and actions always create differences (contrasts) between behaviour models, and even the slightest contrast is enough to distinguish light from shadow, or in this case "model one" from "model two", and people can then call model 1 as "good" and model 2 as "evil".

Even God, should he exist, is not free of logical paradoxes.

If evil and good are defined by differences in behaviour models, then evil can't be wiped out if differences are not destroyed. I don't think it would be in interests of anyone to wipe out differences. Perhaps downsizing the contrasts wouldn't be bad thing... but on the other hand, people would still call the "darker" contrast values as evil. Even if there were two "colours" of behaviour models in world, {255 255 255} and {254 254 254}, people would still dub the gray value as "evil". :rolleyes:
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
use more paragraphs.. i only skimmed

religion in and of itself is arrogance "i cannot provide any evidence for X, but i'm going to believe X exists because doing so makes me feel good, feel important" - that is the upmost in arrogance. 

this study just merely reinforces the opinion I have of religion, based upon observation of it's effects on society: not only is it an expression of arrogance, but it is harmful to those around it


Arrogance? Who's a bigger fool - a fool or a fool that has a fool for a leader?

Isn't it even more arrogant to say "You're arrogant becouse you belive X, which I can't possibly disprove but I just don't like it, so you beliving in it is stupid and arrogant!"

Religion is a touchy matter (as it should be given it's importance in a persons life) so normaly people have string reactions to it. But I seriously doubt that study.

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Now let's go see just how anticocial I am...
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Religion is arrogance, at least those that claim Man was created in God's image and that God actually cares about us are. Fact is, in this huge Universe, the chance that it was all made for us is vanishingly small. We are not important. Deal with it.

I fail to see which religion claims that the wole universe is made only for us.
And what is so arrogant about beliving God cares about us? After all he created us!
And don't you love the things you made - no matter what exactly they are? (paintings, models, statues, poems, etc..)


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Religion is both ignorance and arrogance. Religions have caused more evil than good, that's the bottom line.

Sez you. You THINK they caused more evil than good but that can hardly be mesured (and news of good deeds don't travel as far as news of baddeeds) or proven...
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Offline Ace

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Silence, insolent fool! You dare question your God?

*Eyes glow*

Mefustae is a false god. Banish the darkness and take the path to Enlightenment.

Hallowed are the Ori.
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Offline Kazan

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
Isn't it even more arrogant to say "You're arrogant becouse you belive X, which I can't possibly disprove but I just don't like it, so you beliving in it is stupid and arrogant!"


no.

reference: definition of arrogance, straw man argument

try not mischaracterizing my reasoning nexttime mmkay fundie
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Offline Kazan

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
And what is so arrogant about beliving God cares about us? After all he created us!

so you claim, with absolutely no evidence to support your claims thereof - and yet you (yes YOU Specifically as well as you generally) attempt to force other people to live according to your beliefs as if you had evidence they were real.

You don't have one scrap of evidence - notta one.  Therefore that makes your beliefs delusions and your behavior in presuming that you are correct and get to tell others what to do arrogance.



Sez you. You THINK they caused more evil than good but that can hardly be mesured (and news of good deeds don't travel as far as news of baddeeds) or proven...

it's fairly easy to measure good vs ill and religions come very down on the side of ill. 
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
There's an inherent and unanswerable question, however, as to how justified or inspired an action actually is by religion - both a good or bad one - versus how useful religion is as a justification.

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: Religion linked with antisocial behavior?
I fail to see which religion claims that the wole universe is made only for us.
And what is so arrogant about beliving God cares about us? After all he created us!
And don't you love the things you made - no matter what exactly they are? (paintings, models, statues, poems, etc..)
The general idea is that humans are made in God's image, we are his ultimate creation [other than curly-fries, that is], and we're generally important. Even with a universe bigger than we can possibly fathom, God pays attention only to us, as we are special. Moreover, the general gist of the Bible indicates that we are the only life in the universe and soforth, a preposterous notion unto itself.

See, when you look at the reality of our situation; tiny and completely meaningless in this colossal  universe of ours, you can see why folks would call you guys 'arrogant'.

Mefustae is a false god. Banish the darkness and take the path to Enlightenment.

Hallowed are the Ori.
You will regret the day you turned your back on your God and Creator. Feel my wrath!

*Activates ribbon-device and implodes Ace's skull*
« Last Edit: August 27, 2006, 09:37:44 pm by Mefustae »