[AlphaOne]

Well the bottom line about the Iceni as I see it anywai is that it is a very deadly and powerfull ship  which in one form or another should be incorporated into the GTVA arsenal.

However because it was mainly used as a blocade runner it would not do so well on its own in a prelonged battle.

Also this leads me to the conclusion that if a variuont of the Iceni would be manufactured and brought into service with the GTVA it would have to have much more aaaf defences then the current variant to stand a chance in active combat or it would be heavely dependant on fighter protection and thus would be limited in its mission parameters which would reduce its usefulness.

So basicly what we need is a ship with the firepower of the Iceni the aaaf defences of a corvette not a deimos since that would be overkill maibe the aaaf defences of a sobek would be good unless that is overkill also, yet still maintain the speed and hp of the original.


Now this would be one seriously powerfull ship. However if the GTVA ever decided to manufacture such a variant it would most definetly use the useless slasher tiype beams and compromise the entire design.

I sugets the GTVA aproach what is left of the NTF or their NTF prisoners asuming they have poeple who were involved in the making of the Iceni, to design such a ship or rather its variant. Because it is clear that GTVA design teams are idiots.


(Listen to the brag about the Hecate with all of its weapons beeing more powerfull the an Orion. Man oh man i would of loved to see the look on thei faces when Hecate class destroyer were cripled and even destroyed by shivan corvetes or cruisers or frigates )

[General Battuta]

Uh, the Hecate's a carrier, really.

Command pulls the Aquitaine out every time there's an attack, even by something as small as a Moloch. 

The only other Hecate we see, the Phoenicia, is used solely as a delaying force to slow down the Sathanas.  At that it fails. 

[neoterran]

how'd this thread turn into a fight about the Iceni ?

[aldo_14]

Well the bottom line about the Iceni as I see it anywai is that it is a very deadly and powerfull ship  which in one form or another should be incorporated into the GTVA arsenal.

However because it was mainly used as a blocade runner it would not do so well on its own in a prelonged battle.

Also this leads me to the conclusion that if a variuont of the Iceni would be manufactured and brought into service with the GTVA it would have to have much more aaaf defences then the current variant to stand a chance in active combat or it would be heavely dependant on fighter protection and thus would be limited in its mission parameters which would reduce its usefulness.

So basicly what we need is a ship with the firepower of the Iceni the aaaf defences of a corvette not a deimos since that would be overkill maibe the aaaf defences of a sobek would be good unless that is overkill also, yet still maintain the speed and hp of the original.


Now this would be one seriously powerfull ship. However if the GTVA ever decided to manufacture such a variant it would most definetly use the useless slasher tiype beams and compromise the entire design.

So what you need, then, is a new ship design.  Otherwise it's just as daft as saying 'well, a Deimos with 50 fighters in a launch bay, BFGreens and twice the armour would be cool, so why not make one of those?'

[Snail]

That's what I've been saying.

[aldo_14]

That's what I've been saying.

Indeed, but when hitting a nail into a particularly dense surface you sometimes need to give it a few extra hard whacks.

[Charismatic]

Halfway throgh page 2. Waste of time to read the rest.

Im surprized there are so many NTF supporters. I expected that HLP was a more vasudan friendly community, with a few NTF traitors.

The GTVA treaty saved our ASSES and worked like a charm. Well, after the SOC killed off all opposition, under the radar.

Terrans OWE Vasudans our lives as a species; likewise with Vasudans. We should be trusting eachother by now. God, FFS, we held off the Great Destroyers, by watching eachothers back.

Vasudans are Honorable. Terrans, not so honorable. Why do you hate them so much? So what if they killed your grandpa, we killed theirs.

And lofl, there is no proof of a vasudan female looking any diff then a male. So you might be thinking a male vasudan is hot, and mistake it for a female, rofl.

[neoterran]

Halfway throgh page 2. Waste of time to read the rest.

Im surprized there are so many NTF supporters. I expected that HLP was a more vasudan friendly community, with a few NTF traitors.

The GTVA treaty saved our ASSES and worked like a charm. Well, after the SOC killed off all opposition, under the radar.

Terrans OWE Vasudans our lives as a species; likewise with Vasudans. We should be trusting eachother by now. God, FFS, we held off the Great Destroyers, by watching eachothers back.

Vasudans are Honorable. Terrans, not so honorable. Why do you hate them so much? So what if they killed your grandpa, we killed theirs.

And lofl, there is no proof of a vasudan female looking any diff then a male. So you might be thinking a male vasudan is hot, and mistake it for a female, rofl.

Uh Charismatic, Vasudans don't worship the Lord God, so in real life I guarantee that you would not be a Vasudan supporter but instead a NTF defectee since you have espoused your religous views previously on the board. Vasudans are unbelievers and heretics as far as your world view is concerned.

[AlphaOne]

Well if the only way to make use the Iceni design is to make a ship based heavyli on its design specs then so be it. What ever works best! It is a ship too powerfull and too usefull for the GTVA to be ignored. Bosch really exployted a gap in the GTVA arsenal since the GTVA does not have anything fast enough or powerfull enough short of a destroyer with which to take it out. Such a ship I believe would prove very usefull even against the shivans ! It would be sort of a fast response heaby hitter of the fleet quikly deployed where its needed hit the enemy hard or even destroy some of its ships then head back out .

This way it could cause not only significat damage but it could even prove usefull to the fleet in large battles due to its enourmous firepower with fighter cover beeing provided by fighters from a destroyer.

[aldo_14]

Well if the only way to make use the Iceni design is to make a ship based heavyli on its design specs then so be it. What ever works best! It is a ship too powerfull and too usefull for the GTVA to be ignored. Bosch really exployted a gap in the GTVA arsenal since the GTVA does not have anything fast enough or powerfull enough short of a destroyer with which to take it out. Such a ship I believe would prove very usefull even against the shivans ! It would be sort of a fast response heaby hitter of the fleet quikly deployed where its needed hit the enemy hard or even destroy some of its ships then head back out .

This way it could cause not only significat damage but it could even prove usefull to the fleet in large battles due to its enourmous firepower with fighter cover beeing provided by fighters from a destroyer.

The Iceni design specs are for a C & C ship designed to covertly evade GTVA fleets and run blockades into contested systems - not to capture them but to reach Shivan territory and dispatch a message using a communications system which the ship may or may not have also been expressly designed to use.  If you believe the response to a Shivan invasion ala FS2 is to, ummm, run Shivan node blockades and then sit around for a bit in the middle of enemy territory, then the Iceni is the right design for you.

AS far as enormous firepower; it doesn't have it.  It's beam weaponry is offset by a critical lack of AAAf armament; any effectiveness against something like a destroyer (because, after all, any other kind of ship is already as capably handled by the corvette classes and bombers) is negated entirely by it getting shredded to pieces by Shivan bombers.  And yes, you can provide fighter cover; but then it because a bit, fat, liability requiring nursemaiding by a destroyer.  And the speed of the Iceni  - speed being a pointless concept for 'normal' warship designs because they can jump (useful in a blockade runner, of course, because you're avoiding attack at all costs) - is then completely negated by the handicap of waiting on that destroyer.

So it's not a particularly heavy hitter, it's not really that well suited to engage any sort of enemy ship not as well (if not better) handled by the Deimos/Sobek, it's speed is negated by the reliance on fighter cover, and the only situation it can be deployed in is one which is massively unlikely (GTVA counterattack into Shivan held space).  Oh, and it's a tactical liability because it's relatively useless for the sort of fighting the GTVA has to do against the Shivans - defensive, and covering evacuation.

[AlphaOne]

Aldo I said based on the Iceni design specs not identical. Sure that ship could be made more usefull that is why I beliee some redesign issues should be brought about it. Hell it doesnt have to identical to the iceni just use the general guidelines of heavy forvard firepower high speed but add decent aaaf weaponry. you can make it look like a notebook for al i care just make it work. and i believe that a future ship class based on the iceni general guidelines staed above would not only be posible but even usefull. as for fighter cover we see even corvettes operate agains other warships with fighter cover.

[aldo_14]

Aldo I said based on the Iceni design specs not identical. Sure that ship could be made more usefull that is why I beliee some redesign issues should be brought about it. Hell it doesnt have to identical to the iceni just use the general guidelines of heavy forvard firepower high speed but add decent aaaf weaponry. you can make it look like a notebook for al i care just make it work. and i believe that a future ship class based on the iceni general guidelines staed above would not only be posible but even usefull. as for fighter cover we see even corvettes operate agains other warships with fighter cover.

So in other words, you don't actually want to use the Iceni or the Iceni design, but create an entirely new ship design based on a broad set of parameters which include a few of the Icenis perceived advantages.  Which was exactly my bloody point.

[AlphaOne]

Well that is because i just realised that such a ship usefull as it may be it would have serious problems against bommbers especialy shivan bommbers.

but i do believe that a compact sleek small body like the one the iceni has or deimos or sobek for that matter would be desired since well it would make it harder to hit in any serious way by slasher beams ! Also there would be a smaller ship are for the aaaf defences to protect and thus make them much more efective and harder to everrun!

Mi general opinion was that maybe the Iceni could be made more usefull by simply adding a few more aaaf weanpry on it. But that view has started to change since well we have the example of the Orion a very capable ship but one wich is desperatly in need of more aaaf weaponry on it. No matter how much you improve the existing design there will always be a major drawback on it .

So if you can not improve the Original reimagine the original with specific design specs in mind ! So basicly what you said !  But I believe that they will eventualy come up with a body design somewhat similar to either the Iceni or a more powerfull Deimos.

So a longer larger more powerfull version of the deimos actualy. Since the Deimos has a very good speed to it and loads of aaaf weaponry !

[Charismatic]

Halfway throgh page 2. Waste of time to read the rest.

Im surprized there are so many NTF supporters. I expected that HLP was a more vasudan friendly community, with a few NTF traitors.

The GTVA treaty saved our ASSES and worked like a charm. Well, after the SOC killed off all opposition, under the radar.

Terrans OWE Vasudans our lives as a species; likewise with Vasudans. We should be trusting eachother by now. God, FFS, we held off the Great Destroyers, by watching eachothers back.

Vasudans are Honorable. Terrans, not so honorable. Why do you hate them so much? So what if they killed your grandpa, we killed theirs.

And lofl, there is no proof of a vasudan female looking any diff then a male. So you might be thinking a male vasudan is hot, and mistake it for a female, rofl.

Uh Charismatic, Vasudans don't worship the Lord God, so in real life I guarantee that you would not be a Vasudan supporter but instead a NTF defectee since you have espoused your religous views previously on the board. Vasudans are unbelievers and heretics as far as your world view is concerned.

Lol. Anyways, i know what i did. I hold true to my beleifs. IF in real life, they would be unbeleivers; not heretics tho. And, no offence, but you do not know my world view. I would not be a NTF member. I am GTVA all the way. I recently restarted FS1 and in my 2nd mission i was likw 'wtf' when i saw 'vasudans' in red, as the enemy. Lol. Was weird... now i gota hate the vasudans again.
I believe ppl are entitled to their beleives and opinions and religons; tho they may be wrong or conflict with my beleifs and opinions. of ppl dont beleive in my God, so whats another vasudan?

>)

[S-99]

Hmmmm, yeah. The iceni really is just a more capship weaponry potent and faster corvette in reality. Perhaps getting rid of stuff like slashers and some bgreens replacement along with 5ms faster speed for the deimos would make the deimos on par with the iceni. In that case the deimos would then be more powerful than the iceni. The deimos would be nicer if it didn't have those slashers, unless your piloting the deimos in which making good shots with slashers isn't hard because you're piloting (there's a pilotable deimos mission laying around the hlp somewhere i played a while a go). Just giving the deimos non-slashers of any kind would be a very nice upgrade.

[Snail]

Hmmmm, yeah. The iceni really is just a more capship weaponry potent and faster corvette in reality. Perhaps getting rid of stuff like slashers and some bgreens replacement along with 5ms faster speed for the deimos would make the deimos on par with the iceni. In that case the deimos would then be more powerful than the iceni. The deimos would be nicer if it didn't have those slashers, unless your piloting the deimos in which making good shots with slashers isn't hard because you're piloting (there's a pilotable deimos mission laying around the hlp somewhere i played a while a go). Just giving the deimos non-slashers of any kind would be a very nice upgrade.

Let's just go give the Fenris BFGreens on every single turret and make it 500m/s faster.

I'm being an ass, and I'm sorry.

[Charismatic]

Hmmmm, yeah. The iceni really is just a more capship weaponry potent and faster corvette in reality. Perhaps getting rid of stuff like slashers and some bgreens replacement along with 5ms faster speed for the deimos would make the deimos on par with the iceni. In that case the deimos would then be more powerful than the iceni. The deimos would be nicer if it didn't have those slashers, unless your piloting the deimos in which making good shots with slashers isn't hard because you're piloting (there's a pilotable deimos mission laying around the hlp somewhere i played a while a go). Just giving the deimos non-slashers of any kind would be a very nice upgrade.

Let's just go give the Fenris BFGreens on every single turret and make it 500m/s faster.

I'm being an ass, and I'm sorry.

Is that.. the infamous Fenris ship of D00M?!

[Snail]

GTC Ubermorter!

[Black Wolf]

I don't understand; you seem to have missed my point.

What makes you think that Freedom Shipyards was a civillian shipyard, anyways?  And what makes you think it was building the Iceni before the rebellion started and the shipyard was captured (bearing in mind it's in Polaris, the first system to defect to the NTF)?

I think Freedom was a military ship yard, and I doubt the Iceni could have been built after the beginnings of the rebellion because it would have taken too long and cost too much for a rebellion that lasted on 18 months and probably didn't have the money to both build and design (from scratch) an entirely new class of warship. Modern day military equipment (warships, subs, planes etc.) take decades to design - admittedly, a lot of that could be stripped down, by eliminating testing, duplication of effort by conflicting companies etc. etc. but 18 months to build and design a 1 kilometer long warship using technology at least as advanced as that of the most modern ships in the terran fleet? And then fuinding it? R&D alone waould cost the equivalent of hundreds of millions of dollars - it's not something a rebellion can afford. Do you see the Tamul Tigers designing and constructing new classes of modern day warships in Sri Lanka? Or the Maoists in Nepal fielding next gen assault rifles? **** no. They're using stolen boats and AK47s. And yes, these are rebellions in less prosperous nations, but even so, the parallels are there I think.

To me, the only situation that makes sense in terms of the available timeframe and probably the available funds is for Bosch to convince the GTVA to fund and design the Iceni, and then pinch it the first chance he got.

[aldo_14]

I don't understand; you seem to have missed my point.

What makes you think that Freedom Shipyards was a civillian shipyard, anyways?  And what makes you think it was building the Iceni before the rebellion started and the shipyard was captured (bearing in mind it's in Polaris, the first system to defect to the NTF)?

I think Freedom was a military ship yard, and I doubt the Iceni could have been built after the beginnings of the rebellion because it would have taken too long and cost too much for a rebellion that lasted on 18 months and probably didn't have the money to both build and design (from scratch) an entirely new class of warship. Modern day military equipment (warships, subs, planes etc.) take decades to design - admittedly, a lot of that could be stripped down, by eliminating testing, duplication of effort by conflicting companies etc. etc. but 18 months to build and design a 1 kilometer long warship using technology at least as advanced as that of the most modern ships in the terran fleet? And then fuinding it? R&D alone waould cost the equivalent of hundreds of millions of dollars - it's not something a rebellion can afford. Do you see the Tamul Tigers designing and constructing new classes of modern day warships in Sri Lanka? Or the Maoists in Nepal fielding next gen assault rifles? **** no. They're using stolen boats and AK47s. And yes, these are rebellions in less prosperous nations, but even so, the parallels are there I think.

To me, the only situation that makes sense in terms of the available timeframe and probably the available funds is for Bosch to convince the GTVA to fund and design the Iceni, and then pinch it the first chance he got.

Why would they have to design it after the shipyard was captured.  That could - and surely would have - be done before the rebellion took place, especially as it was solely a cover for the eventual deployment of the Iceni.  So the 18 month figure (which IMO is likely as Polaris was first to fall) is solely for building the ship and, if it's using existing techniques, there shouldn't be a huge amount of research needed.  Plus, I don't see the Iceni as being more advanced than, ooh, a Deimos.  It's just differently specialised.

Plus, the likes of the Tamil Tigers, etc, aren't valid examples - these groups don't have anywhere near equivalent resources to the NTF; they don't have construction facilities, for example.  Nor are they formed from defectors (IIRC) of regular armed forces, not to mention that the NTF would have likely gained ship design intel (if such a thing was not already available for the fleet's commanding admiral) from capturing said shipyards so they do not need to reverse-engineer to build new warships.

Remember, the NTF took Polaris - and then rapidly several other systems.  Their resource base is completely incomparable to a domestic insurgency or guerilla war and something more akin to Texas declaring independence and being allied with by Florida & New Mexico.

Also, it's hard for me to see why the GTVA would want a ship like the Iceni.