[Snail]

Also let us not forget that the shivans while having some 80 jugs out there had little in the way of destroyers or other smaller cap ships. Only a hand full or so !

Where'd you get that idea? Yes, we did not see that many Ravanas or Demons, but who says that they didn't have them. They could be engaging elsewhere, remember that Alpha 1 can't be everywhere at once.

[AlphaOne]

If they did have other destroyers out there engaging the GTVA then they would tell that to the player or it would at least be mentioned in some briefing or footnote on a debriefing.

[Nuclear1]

If they did have other destroyers out there engaging the GTVA then they would tell that to the player or it would at least be mentioned in some briefing or footnote on a debriefing.

I think they'd focus on the 80+ Sathanes going for the Capella rather than "hey, another destroyer."  Plus, noting that the GTVA has sustained 100,000+  casualties without the juggernauts actually opening fire on any ship implies that there's a lot more Shivans than you see.

The shivans must of realised that if they decided to retreat from the advance of the GTVA then the GTVA in a relatively short amount of time would beome too powerfull for even the shivans . Or beeing left alone to wonder the galaxi and explore they would eventualy come across something equaly powerfull to the shivans but this time bent on conquest and so the GTVA will most surely find its end .

The Shivans, in the history of Freespace, have never retreated.  The reason for the Capella supernova that most people can derive from the FS2 storyline was Admiral Bosch's communication with the Shivans pleading with them to not destroy the GTVA.  If the Shivans had not been interrupted, then I'm certain the Shivans would've gladly run through the GTVA and completely wiped it out.

Even if the Shivans even considered that the GTVA had 80 Colossus warships to counter the juggernauts, how would that phase them?  One Sathanas destroyed one Colossus in a matter of seconds, while one Colossus destroyed one Sathanas in much more time, and after nearly melting down its weapons.  Do the Shivans have anything to be afraid of?

[Hades]

Besides that is probably not the Bulk of the Shivan Armada.There Could be Millions of other Shivan capital ships else were.

[brandx0]

Let's not forget that hte Collie was also the first jug - and prototpyes take twice as long to build than the next ships of the class.

Just a real world example:  Unfortunately I couldn't find any details on the development of the Nimitz class carrier, but a modern day Nimitz takes about 2 years to build.  As a comparison, the new Ford class carrier began development in 2001, however the first ship of the line will not be launched until 2015 (and it's only a modification of the Nimitz Class.)  Any prototype takes a very long time to develop and build.  Once that is all done, further models can be quickly completed.   

[Flipside]

Interesting, however, that the Ancients mention other Galaxies, not just other stars, that's probably just a blip, but still....

As I said before, I don't think it would be possible to wipe out all other civilisations using the Jump-Node system, it's seemingly random (especially if some do come out in other galaxies). Even if you were able to sense where the nodes went, no matter how numerous the Shivan's were, how many uninhabited systems would they have to visit just to find the inhabited one. For all we know, the Subspace Network could cover Millions or even Billions of Stars. The Shivans may be powerful, but I doubt even they have the power to achieve that.

Even the Ancients from the Monologue were only stating from their own point of view, they believed they were the last of their race, but by that stage of fracturing of the Ancients' Empire, how could they be sure, there may have been other pockets of Ancients, too afraid to try and communicate because the Destroyers may hear them, it's far from beyind the realms of possibility.

[Dark Hunter]

Actualy let us not forget that whyle it was not designed to take on a ship of equal power or size to its own or greather the Collie did very well. I mean sure it took damage from blown reactors but it managed to take out the sath before the sath got into weapons range ! Sure by that time the sath did not have any forward beams of its own but it doesnt really matter.

"Doesn't really matter that it had no forward beams." Har har har, very funny. If the Sath had all four of its beams at that point, it would have shredded the Collie within a few volleys. The only reason the Collie won that fight is that the Sathanas was effectively disarmed.

Also let us not forget that the shivans while having some 80 jugs out there had little in the way of destroyers or other smaller cap ships. Only a hand full or so!

I believe that one briefing says the Shivans are "pouring into Gamma Draconis", and that was after the Sath Fleet arrived in Capella. Even if each Sath had like two destroyers as escort or part of its own mini-fleet, that'd be well over a hundred destroyers, plus a much greater number of corvettes and cruisers.

Also since when do jump nodes reamain intact after the star is blown away?? Don't you need a trat or something like that to have jump nodes? That is what i believed.

Subspace nodes require a gravity well to be present, but other than that they have no physical presence in normal space. I do not, therefore, find it all too unlikely that a node would survive a supernova (whether a neutron star has enough of a gravity well to sustain a jump node is another matter entirely).

[AlphaOne]

I think you are right about the ancients. Also if Bosch somehow managed to talk to the shivans ( and that is a big if , altough not imposible) what makes you think that they would listen to him? I mean come on.....!(on the same note better with him the with GTVA command)


Also Let us asume that the shivans believed the GTVA to be acting in a similar manner to them first try the small guns if that doesnt matter send in a bigger gun when that fails send its improved brothers so to speak. I mean that is what the shivans basicly did. first corvettes and then destroyers like the ravana then the Sath. For all we know the shivans might of believed that"hey if these guis have stepped up to plate so far after we destroy this bucket of bolts what will they send at us??"

I mean come on not even the shivans are that idiots...sure they dont back away from a fight..that we know of which is very little but if they have suficient reason to believe that the GTVA will cause them severe damage if not even defeat theyr armada of juggs then they would try to seal off the GTVA or make a show of force that will ensure them some peace so to speak. Altough peace is probably not the best word to use.

Also if the shivans had millions of ships out there then believe me they would of surely sent them instead of losing severeal sath one to the GTVA and several to the nova.

I think you give the shivans too much power. Sure they are far far more powerfull then the GTVA and it will likeli take the GTVA at least another century or even more to become ani significant threat for them but the shivans are not all mighty and are not invincible.

They may have a few more juggs out there perhaps even some more bigger ships more powerfull even 100 or 200 destroyers but still even that is a force which the GTVA given enough time will be able to stand its grounds against.


Also I believe that the shivans became aware that the GTVA is more then happy to learn from them take any tech available improve it and turn it agains them. Now imagine if the GTVA somehow managed to improve theyr beam cannons in 10 or 20 years time make them even half as powerfull as the shivans ones. now that is a very horyfic thought indeed. Because we can be pretty sure that they noticed that GTVA beam cannons were crap compared to theirs. Yet the GTVA still managed to score numeropus hits on shivan warships. Do not underestimate the GTVA's abilaty to addapt and evolve study and learn. I'm pretty sure they got somewhat of a shock when they saw theyr ships get blown away by GTVA beam fire. Well mostly asisted by bommbers but still. That is something i'm very sure they did not expect. And then use theyr own maras against them? and guess what they weer even better then theyr own. Now those fighters were improved under time of war with limited knoledge of them Imagine if they had the time to properly study them and improve them?

[Hades]

The Shivans wouldn't use all of there ships becasue there to far away.Also they might be attacking hundreds of other races.

[AlphaOne]

Hundredds of other races?? Now that is something i find rather hard to believe ! I mean sure a doze or 2 of other races out there but still hundreds??

I mean the Ancients from we know pretty much ruled the galaxy or the majoraty of it. And most of that empire was carved through war. I mean they destroyed other smaller races whych when you are dealing with a few sistems even a few dozens is posible and the others they just enslaved. Now If the shivans were truely engaging other species then they would all have to be warmongering fools. Now this I find rather hard to believe. Also most other species did not have the advantage of studiynd shivana tech like the GTVA. This is just an asumption .

Also if the shivans were actualy engaging other species out there then theyr suden withdrawl from GTVA space could only mean those ships were neded some place else which to me would only sugest they considered the posibilaty that the GTVA migh inflict severe damage to them severe enough for they war plans in other places.

Also that would also mean that someplace else the shivans were beeing beaten back if they had to withdraw they armada.

Look i'm not disputing the fact that the shivans have a fleet far bigger then the GTVA huge in fact compared to that of the GTVa and in many respects more tech. advanced then that of the GTVA however what i'm disputing is the shivans tromendous power so huge that none may even think to chalenge them.

You do not build a fleet this big 80+ Stah just out of fun . You build it because you need it . Also while the shivans may have a vast empire s to speack from whioch to dram resources nuilding such a masive fleet would take a tall on they resources as well. I do not care what you say ships need to be repaired resuplyed with amunition fighters spare pilots spare fighters etc. Add those 80+ juggs with one or 2 hundred destroyers add to that a few more hundreds of corvets and close to 100 if not more cruisers and you have yourself one huge material and money (if they use money) hungry war machine which can only be sustained by exploting the resources of a vas empire and i do mean huge empire. Why do i say huge because even I know that those 80 juggs were not the only ones but did represent a significent force from they core armada . Hell thoy could have 2 times more of them and thice as many destroyers and corvettes and cruisers but still they would be spread acros at least one galaxy . So that about thins them up a bit .

Also did anybody even consider the fact that the shivans could acualy be taking a beating in some other region of the galaxy or pehaps they home galaxy ? I got the imresion that the ancients discovered the shivans or rather the shivans came upon the ancients either from some corner of the galaxy, (highly unlikely since they would not have the time or the resources to build such a vas armada in such a short amount of time and those that argue against this i must remind them that the shivans pretty much remained stagenent durynt the 8000 years or so since they crushed the ancients) or a nother galaxi altoghether.

[freespacegundam]

I think that many people would agree that the Shivans are at the very least the most powerful force that exists within the galaxy the GTVA inhabits.  Their technology enables a complete mastery of subspace, and the ability to project overwhelming force to any point of conflict.  Now, that being said, we may know a great deal about Shivan technology, but very little of their actual motives.  If the Shivans simply wiped out races for using subspace in the first place, the GTA and PVN would have been exterminated soon after they discovered the technology.  The empire of the ancients existed for at the very least a few centuries before being wiped out due to some perceived great sin on their part.

Now, we can surmise then that the Shivans do not eliminate races simply for using subspace as a means of travel.  And for those arguing that its the sheer volume of subspace activity that is involved in war time, I might point out that the Terran Vasudan war is known to have dragged on for many years with neither side gaining much in the way of territory.  Its more likely battles dragged on in one system for weeks or perhaps months.  While reinforcements were surely sent in by both sides, I imagine these forces were slow to arrive, accounting for the stalemate. 

Increased subspace travel would also be much more common in peacetime, or at the very least far above normal.  Why you might ask?  Simple, colonization.  With no wars to fight, industry turns toward expansion.  Explorers set out to chart new worlds and nodes, and suitable systems are often seen as the land of milk and honey by colonists who may be leaving behind rather dismal conditions in the more largely populated systems.  With no enemy to worry about, explorer vessels can load up on supplies and head out as far as they can travel before returning home.  In their wake come colonist, entrepreneurs, and corporations, all looking to gain something out of these new discoveries.  The flood of ships would be much more numerous in such a case.

Case in point: the end of the Great War meant a time of rebuilding for both species.  Industry and manpower were probably moved around a lot during the Reconstruction, meaning travel probably increased from wartime.  A good example would be Capella, which somehow managed to build up at least 250 million colonists in 32 years or less depending on when it was colonized.  That's a huge population boom for one system, so immigrants had to be arriving on a regular basis with the population of the other colonies was still increasing.

I believe we can conclude then that it is not an increase in subspace activity that draws the Shivans.  If it were, the GTVA would never have been formed because both species would have been wiped out in their infancy.

Any species that discovers subspace technology and moves out into the galaxy is not then automatically marked for the destruction.  Therefore it is quite possible there are other space faring races in our galaxy, though where they are is anyone’s guess.

It would be interesting to see a campaign dealing with two new races facing the same problem the GTA and PVN were during the T/V war. 

[Dark Hunter]

I do not believe that the Shivans are the single most powerful force in the FS universe. I believe they are the most powerful yet encountered. I also agree that they are race like any other (albeit more technologically advanced than most... and apparently stagnant in technology)... not some mystical force born to protect the galactic superstructure. They may very well be trying to protect subspace, I don't know. Nobody knows (except perhaps ), and that's what this all boils down to. We all have our own ideas about the Shivans... but none can ever be proven one way or another.

[TrashMan]

I do not believe that the Shivans are the single most powerful force in the FS universe. I believe they are the most powerful yet encountered. I also agree that they are race like any other (albeit more technologically advanced than most... and apparently stagnant in technology)... not some mystical force born to protect the galactic superstructure. They may very well be trying to protect subspace, I don't know. Nobody knows (except perhaps ), and that's what this all boils down to. We all have our own ideas about the Shivans... but none can ever be proven one way or another.

Well said...

[Grizzly]

I do not believe that the Shivans are the single most powerful force in the FS universe. I believe they are the most powerful yet encountered. I also agree that they are race like any other (albeit more technologically advanced than most... and apparently stagnant in technology)... not some mystical force born to protect the galactic superstructure. They may very well be trying to protect subspace, I don't know. Nobody knows (except perhaps ), and that's what this all boils down to. We all have our own ideas about the Shivans... but none can ever be proven one way or another.

Well said...

Agreed. After all, there is the mysterious bigger problem.

The Shivans may think we are the descendants of that mysterious bigger problem?

[Snail]

Yay, he's not talking in the third person!

This is a cool discussion, I like it.

[AlphaOne]

If we were actualy part of the bigger problem then rest asured the shivans would not care even if they lost they entire sath fleet to the GTVA (asuming that such a thing would of been posible) They would kept pooring in every available ship they had in order to crush the GTVA)

[Grizzly]

We are not a part... but they think we are.. and that's why...

Great, we might have a possible solution here.

[Snail]

If we were actualy part of the bigger problem then rest asured the shivans would not care even if they lost they entire sath fleet to the GTVA (asuming that such a thing would of been posible) They would kept pooring in every available ship they had in order to crush the GTVA)

No, AlphaOne, the SHIVANS are part of the bigger problem, not the GTVA.

[Vasudan Commander]

As Admiral Bosch suggested ,

"What if there had been countless civilisations....stretching back into infinity.....and like the Nine cities of Troy, each was built on the ruins of the last. Each....annihilated by the shivans."

I think Occums Razor applies here. The most basic and logical answer is that shivans find any other race that can use subspace as a threat.

And to explain them destroying the Capella star, i believe they need nebulae to survive. It explains why the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis was so densely populated by them, although no worlds or installations were discovered. It is quite possible that they are a nomadic species, constantly travelling throughout the galaxy to destroy races that discover the use of subspace.

My theory anyway.

[Snail]

Hmm.... I don't think they need nebula to survive, but I believe it's important for them. Remember, the first Sath showed up to nuke the player's group after they attacked a mining operation in the nebula.