Author Topic: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.  (Read 105912 times)

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Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Regarding bay lasers colors, I think that we should keep the "basic" laser colour (orange/yellow), as other weapons like the epc and npc (exclusive fighter weaponry) are blue or green, etc...

   Is there a basic laser colour? Or are you basing this on the video game. I've never actually played Jacob's star, I see it's on HotU but haven't played it. The reason I think that differentiating the laser colour is good is . . just because the player can better tell between the different beams. Like for example, if one ship is firing a bunch of yellow beams and the other ship isnt because it has short range beams. Then the fact that their beams are different would be better emphasised with a different colour. If the say a ship is firing 37.5s and their bright yellow, and another ship takes all that punishment, going in and then when close enough fires some . . . whatever 22.5s the player might think "why the hell didn't you shoot those before? You're firing the same damn thing."

  A person can also try to make some beams more impressive than others in that regard. Even something simple, like maybe short range beams are red. And then as beams get longer range they become progressively more yellow/white (so a mid-range might be orange). I'd say don't necessarily limit yourself to a 15-20 year old video game. Take for example the Star Wars conversion, the Tie Fighter game was contemporary with Jacob's star but the SWC guys (fate of the galaxy anyway) aren't sticking to it. They're trying to go beyond it and simulate the movies or whatever else, while still drawing upon the wealth of information and ships from the game.

  That'd be my thoughts anyway.

  

Offline starlord

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Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Yes, you may be right: We can vary the lasers colours, but stick to the red/orange/gold colour types: Blue or green or elso would confuse the player in thinking the ships have long range EPC or NPC canons.

Also, on the renegade pegasus corvette (in the leviathan briefing) there is the perfect standard turret for use as ship AA defense: I would say give it 5 hitpoints: 4 guns (varying fighter armament: MDC, epc, npc or laser) and a fighter missile hard point (meaning ships can still threaten your fighter with missiles).

 
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Yes, you may be right: We can vary the lasers colours, but stick to the red/orange/gold colour types: Blue or green or elso would confuse the player in thinking the ships have long range EPC or NPC canons.

   Oh yeah, I see what you're saying. Keep the Particle cannons blue and the lasers yellow . . . but yeah. If the lasers were all "warm" colours and the Particle weapons were cold blue-sorta colours that'd probably be good. But yeah, for ship lasers you don't want to go like . . . the whole rainbow. That would just be kinda dumb imo. :)

 

Offline starlord

  • 210
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
That's right: The punisher uses already the LEPC (I think it's the only one, but I may be wrong), a modified weapon firing a laser and EPC bolt at the same time, so it'll already make a "orange yet silvery laser" declination. We don't need much more. :p

 

Offline gevatter Lars

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Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
About the Gunbuster scene. I think what makes the lasers go in a curve is the gravitiy of the planet. It is possible while the effect was overdone in the anime...as everything mostly is in these films.
Still it was nice to see someone payin a little attention to these kind of details. Also don't you think that the main ship in Ep3 looks very much like the ones from Renegade?
Won't suprise me if FASA copied the design. They did that with Battletech, another game universe they have created.
"Yes! That is my plan, and I see nothing wrong with it. I figure that if I stick to a stupid strategy long enough it might start to work."
 - comment to "Robotech: The Masters"

 

Offline starlord

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Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
That's why I thought I was seeing TOg ships all over the place, with their big vertical fins. :nod:

 

Offline Backslash

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  • Bring Our Might To Bear
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Yeah I was thinking that too... the curve plus the impression that it 'takes a while' to get there is probably due to gravity and the sheer scale of the distance involved.  I suppose that's a bit more realistic than some later crazy weapons in 'modern' anime.
Knowing that jacob doesn't stick with full neutonian momentum, I suggest we drop the idea.
Note that I was not suggesting a full newtonian system... it is much harder to learn and execute properly, at least for fighter combat.  But I do think a 'pseudo-newtonian' method (meaning, just a lot more momentum than regular WWII in space) would be interesting to consider for at least the Leviathans.  Especially because nobody else has done that yet.  Granted, I haven't fought anything bigger than a fighter in Jacob's Star yet so I don't know how they behave there... but as AA says, we don't have to limit ourselves to an old game engine.  It's good for inspiration and a start...

I like the color ideas thrown up so far.  From red to yellow according to range -- there's a lot of possible shades in there.  Heh, though particle cannons being blue makes me feel like I'm back in Battletech/Mechwarrior  :D :yes:

So how many hexes across is an average game field?
Uh, that's the problem. I don't have a video card . . it's just the basic built in thing.
    Does anyone know is there a command I can do which'll tell me what my computer's specs are? Like in a printout on the screen? I just got some computer from Dell via my parents so not really sure what it's got in it  (aside from two processors supposidely).
Try GPU-Z for video related stuff (even though you may not have a 'video card' you've obviously got something integrated in there [and this btw is partly to blame why PC gaming is dying out.  Dell couldn't have included even a $20 card?!]).  Then there's CPU-Z for the rest of the important specs.
Dawn of War is awesome -- I love the 40k universe and they really nailed the 'atmosphere'/general feeling.  Painkiller I wasn't impressed with, but I guess I prefer the more realistic style of FPS to the ultrafast twitch-kill-everything.

 

Offline starlord

  • 210
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
as far as leviathans is concerned, yes we can use such a model. However, I would prefer not for the fighters.

Also, backslash, I don't want to burst your bubble, but I honestly don't know if you will engage leviathans in jacob: It would seem the biggest warships you will fight in there will be corvettes (cingulums). I hope I'm wrong, but...

Also, only electron particle cannons fire a blue bolt, neutron particle cannons fire a green bolt.

 

Offline gevatter Lars

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Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Blue particle beams...did anyone said PPC ^_^
As for PCs with integraded graphic chips even the discounter around the corner had a Geforce 8600 build into the system and was below 1000 bugs. So I don't get why, except for office PCs one should buy a PC with integrated cards.
Btw Backlash...your comment sounds a lot like you read/heard the interview with one of the Gears of War designers...forgot the name.
He mentioned the same reason.
Oh well I just wait for the first virus for consoles ^_^

Back to topic.
I also belive a pseudo newton-physik would be nice. Let the fighters not turn on a dime but make him slide a little into the direction he came from before he turns. Just a little not the entire way it would take to turn with real newton physics.
"Yes! That is my plan, and I see nothing wrong with it. I figure that if I stick to a stupid strategy long enough it might start to work."
 - comment to "Robotech: The Masters"

 

Offline starlord

  • 210
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Sure, ok. As long as it doesn't become another mantis: experimental fighter game  :D

Also, remember that question I asked regarding altering weapon's destructive power during a mission? Is it possible, say, for someone flying a cheeta to be notified by command that they are to capture one of the prised TOG ctwp fighters once the fight is over and the 2 last ones are fleeing. Can command "reprogram" your weapons (lasers) to make minimal damage and higher subsystem damage during mission?

 
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
About the Gunbuster scene. I think what makes the lasers go in a curve is the gravitiy of the planet. It is possible while the effect was overdone in the anime...as everything mostly is in these films.
Still it was nice to see someone payin a little attention to these kind of details. Also don't you think that the main ship in Ep3 looks very much like the ones from Renegade?
Won't suprise me if FASA copied the design. They did that with Battletech, another game universe they have created.

    Hmmn, well Gunbuster came out in 1988 and Leviathan in 1989 so if they did copy it, they had a hell of a small timeframe. Especially since anime takes a while to hit north america. But it does look a bit like the Exelion . .. but at the same, the Exelion looks a bit like the ISD too. So who knows. Leviathan and the rest of the Renegade Legion series was initially intended for Star Wars I've heard, but FASA lost the bid for the game to . . . whoever. Some company with a W anyway. Interceptor, the first game, was supposed to be like X-Wing etcetera.
    Oh wait, well Macross came out in 1984 and Battletech/Droids in 1985 so yeah, maybe they took inspiration from Gunbuster. But hey, why not? It rocks.

Quote
Try GPU-Z for video related stuff (even though you may not have a 'video card' you've obviously got something integrated in there [and this btw is partly to blame why PC gaming is dying out.  Dell couldn't have included even a $20 card?!]).  Then there's CPU-Z for the rest of the important specs.
Dawn of War is awesome -- I love the 40k universe and they really nailed the 'atmosphere'/general feeling.  Painkiller I wasn't impressed with, but I guess I prefer the more realistic style of FPS to the ultrafast twitch-kill-everything.

     Hmmn, well I can play games like FEAR and Doom3 all the way through. Hell I can even play newer ones SIN:Ep and HL2 with slowdown (massive slowdown for part of the HL2 demo I know). So the video card isn't that bad . .. but DoW specifically requires some fancy shading mode or, light effects or something? I dunno. And PK I think, is just a more indy-type game so doesnt support my card. That'd be my guess.

Quote
Also, remember that question I asked regarding altering weapon's destructive power during a mission? Is it possible, say, for someone flying a cheeta to be notified by command that they are to capture one of the prised TOG ctwp fighters once the fight is over and the 2 last ones are fleeing. Can command "reprogram" your weapons (lasers) to make minimal damage and higher subsystem damage during mission?

     Eh, don't know about that one. Though I wonder if the FREDer could simply cut to another mission, and like use persistent variables for the fighter's hull and give the player a new fighter with the downgraded weapons?? (rather than Redalert which would keep the same weapons) Unless there's some sort of sexp where the FRED can change the weapons on a given craft? In the first case, I don't know about the remaining missile loadout though.

     Though the question then becomes, why would the lasers do more subsystem damage? Hmmn . . you know Particle Cannons in battletech are often thought to have some sort of EMP effect. Maybe a subsystem disrupter would be based upon a EPC instead???


 

Offline Getter Robo G

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Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Exelion-like ships seen in 1984's (Macross:DYRL?) The female Meltron ships.

Also, I think the correct procedure for NON pcs2 users is:
1.) After all .cob modeling is done/oriented, turrets, etc. open in PCS1 and convert to .pof
2.) Add thrusters and points, add dock point/paths, and save
3.) MV to more easily position thruster points, add guns and missiles, fix turret points, add/import shield if not done earlier, save model
4.) open in pcs1 for glow points (optional) Cause MV strips them.

I suffer the white model in pcs1 cause MV wont move the dock points.

I have never added glow points to a model before, so far I just made custom glow maps with points on them.

That's how I convert models into FS2.


Lastly you MIGHT find this useful (if not then ignore). You can make an image of multiple beams firing from one turret. Especially if you texture the single turre to have multiple holes or emitter points.

Would something liek this be of use to you?

As you can see it appears to be 12 beams but is actually 3.
Each beam is a 4 beam texture.

If you feel like experimenting at all here is one I tweaked for tripel barrel turrets but depending on angle of view sometimes they are verticle instead of horizontal....


 
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 06:31:59 pm by Getter Robo G »
"Don't think of it as being out-numbered, think of it as having a WIDE target selection!"

"I am the one and ONLY Star Dragon..."
Proof for the noobs:  Member Search

[I'm Just an idea guy, NOT: a modeler, texturer, or coder... Word of advice, "Watch out for the ducks!"]

Robotech II - Continuing...
FS2 Trek - Snails move faster than me...
Star Blazers: Journey to Iscandar...
FS GUNDAM - The Myth lives on... :)

 
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Exelion-like ships seen in 1984's (Macross:DYRL?) The female Meltron ships.

Also, I think the correct procedure for NON pcs2 users is:
1.) After all .cob modeling is done/oriented, turrets, etc. open in PCS1 and convert to .pof
2.) Add thrusters and points, add dock point/paths, and save
3.) MV to more easily position thruster points, add guns and missiles, fix turret points, add/import shield if not done earlier, save model
4.) open in pcs1 for glow points (optional) Cause MV strips them.

    Hmmn, yeah that's an idea. Thanks I might try that out.

Quote
Lastly you MIGHT find this useful (if not then ignore). You can make an image of multiple beams firing from one turret. Especially if you texture the single turre to have multiple holes or emitter points.

    No offence intended, and I don't speak for anyone but myself, but personally those multi-beam beams are my least favourite part of the Robotech mod. Though it is an ingenious way to get around the turret limit.

 

Offline starlord

  • 210
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Actually, I find those "beam clusters" very interesting!

getter robo G, do you have any idea the number of beams you can cluste like this? (could it possibly go up to 100?, or 10 at least)?

 

Offline Getter Robo G

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  • Elite Super Robot Pilot
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
No idea, but dispersal is affected by beam entrys and I think those are in relation to a BFRED???

You would have to do you own experiments, I haven't messed with that in years I did however shorty try to do this for StarBlazers as Heru had the ships but not the effects and this happened, which made me temporarily abandon the effort of tri-beams:

Shot at 2006-02-17

and


Shot at 2004-10-07

See the verticle angle? I wish that could be stopped.

Take that image I posted and throw it on top of another (save) and copy the new one do it again and one more time. Then you would have 1 weapon with 24 beams. Something to test with.

When it works well it will probably work liek you posted earlier..

however at certain angles it goes verticle and that would ruin what you want... Good luck with that!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 06:12:55 am by Getter Robo G »
"Don't think of it as being out-numbered, think of it as having a WIDE target selection!"

"I am the one and ONLY Star Dragon..."
Proof for the noobs:  Member Search

[I'm Just an idea guy, NOT: a modeler, texturer, or coder... Word of advice, "Watch out for the ducks!"]

Robotech II - Continuing...
FS2 Trek - Snails move faster than me...
Star Blazers: Journey to Iscandar...
FS GUNDAM - The Myth lives on... :)

 
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
         Well, see the thing is a beam texture is flat. Not three-dimensional.
         So the beam is going to look the same, wherever the player is positioned. For the beams to hook up to the turret barrels, the beam has to be wide enough that each part of the texture will hit the right place. But the problem is, as Getter G I'm sure knows, if the player isn't positioned in the right spot when the beam fires it'll look dumb for lack of a better word. Since multipart turrets can only be positioned on top or bottom, basically the beam would look best if the player is directly above and the turret looks relatively flat (same as the beam). But if the player is say on the same plane as the turret, so that the three barrels overlap then the beam will look dumb because the textures don't line up anymore. Sometimes the player might only see one barrel but the texture is still simulating 3 so as in that picture there's beams coming out of top and bottom.

           To put things in perspective for RL, you could have a beam texture with 100 shots on it. And have one bay as one turret. And from up above it'll look great. But if the player is directly in front of the leviathan and is moving towards it and the levy fires a broadside then if you're lucky maybe 3-10 of those beam textures might look like they're coming from the guns. The other 90 will either be coming out of the hull or out of nowhere in space basically.



              But yeah, it would be sweet if the SCP team made like a "swarm beam" that fired multiple beams from multiple firepoints. That would help a lot of different mods I think and would add new options for advanced Freespace weaponry.


EDIT - sweet looking ships btw Getter G. I got a few of those bad boys in miniature form. Couple Yamatos, Hood . . . one of those aircraft carriers. Pretty cool. I might pick up the ship recognition guide someday soon. Ignore Gundam, ignore Star Trek . . do more Starblazers :)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 08:10:12 am by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline starlord

  • 210
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Or else, the only thing I see would be to "alternate" beam fire, say instead of having a 100 bay fire all it's beams simultaneously, start the firing this way:

beam 1,2,3...20,21 (one stops),22 (2 stops) etc until the whole bay has fired. This could perhaps help the beams to stay on the bays (and not to fire from the ship's hull).

You see what I mean?

 

Offline starlord

  • 210
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Once again, the remaining leviathans have come to us, thanks to thomassen (This accounts for all the leviathan except a few "hand made designs" (like the cicero).

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP062.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP063.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP064.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP065.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP066.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP067.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP068.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP069.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP070.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP071.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP086.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP087.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP088.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP089.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP090.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP091.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP092.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP093.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP094.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP095.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP098.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP099.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP118.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/RenLegion/CapitalBriefP119.jpg

That's the last of it, WE HAVE THE LEVIATHANS!!!

I'll upload a new version of my renegade leviathans file soon.

 

Offline Backslash

  • 29
  • Bring Our Might To Bear
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Ok AA so go run GPU-Z and tell me your results please... or did it just error "unknown architecture"?

'Swarm beam' does sound like the best way, and I'm sure there are plenty people out there that would like it.  I'm not familiar with this section of the code, but I'm doing some experimenting.  Discovered some fun accidental semi-tractor-beam ideas in the process ;7

Nice looking stuff, GRG!  Sigh, this is why I wish mods would adopt a 'communal' development approach.  Sure, more people would end up seeing the 'dirty' work in progress stuff... but more people would see the stuff period.  The amount of times I've seen one mod group stuck on a problem, only to hear some other group go "oh yeah, we've had that solved for years, we just haven't released yet"... sigh.  I guess I also just want to play around with all the toys :D

starlord, your 'alternating fire' idea is a good one (and so far AA's test ships are sort of doing that).  This would look best if each bay of beams were laid out in a 'square' instead of all in a line.  Though now that I think about it, if you mean to combine it with Getter's idea, one solution would be to have ONE actual beam launcher in the middle of the square, and the square just LOOK like a big bank of many points.

Quote
Also, remember that question I asked regarding altering weapon's destructive power during a mission? Is it possible, say, for someone flying a cheeta to be notified by command that they are to capture one of the prised TOG ctwp fighters once the fight is over and the 2 last ones are fleeing. Can command "reprogram" your weapons (lasers) to make minimal damage and higher subsystem damage during mission?

     Eh, don't know about that one. Though I wonder if the FREDer could simply cut to another mission, and like use persistent variables for the fighter's hull and give the player a new fighter with the downgraded weapons?? (rather than Redalert which would keep the same weapons) Unless there's some sort of sexp where the FRED can change the weapons on a given craft? In the first case, I don't know about the remaining missile loadout though.

     Though the question then becomes, why would the lasers do more subsystem damage? Hmmn . . you know Particle Cannons in battletech are often thought to have some sort of EMP effect. Maybe a subsystem disrupter would be based upon a EPC instead???
Yes, there are sexps to change the specific weapons on a given craft, and also ones to change the entire ship type.  In the latter case this is unreliable (and like you say, resets the missile loadout) but at least you don't have to do a completely new mission.
Still, most 'universes' don't have such 'flexible' weapons (except maybe Star Trek, where you reverse the polarity of the thingy and increase the bogon flux of the whatsit or whatever :p) so this is usually a role for a specific weapon type (or missile).  Plus those types tend to have some downsides, otherwise there's the question -- if your weapons can be set to disable, why not have that on ALL the time?  Unless you're going for some sort of Scorched Earth tactic, it's almost always better to capture than destroy.  So uh... I guess what I'm saying is, if this sort of on-the-fly configure thing is common in the RL universe, sure it can be done.  Is it?

 
Re: renegade "vae victis" project: need help.
Quote
That's the last of it, WE HAVE THE LEVIATHANS!!!

   That's great, now start modelling.


Ok AA so go run GPU-Z and tell me your results please... or did it just error "unknown architecture"?

    Check your PMs