Author Topic: W-H-I-Y-L - boom shake-shake shake the-room.  (Read 3800432 times)

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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
Where is the proof that no such man-portable weapon existed (I admit that I have not watched Macross Plus or Macross 7 yet, but I've watched all of SDF Macross)? Considering that the VF-1, a fairly small aircraft with lots of space and mass wasted for transformation, could mount not one but many weapons capable of taking out a Regult, I see no reason why a shoulder-mounted missile could take one out.

The rough field deployment could be taken care of by making it a VTOL. The articulated engines alone would be sufficient. As for field rearming, it's not necessary. If you can make it back to base, you go back to base. If you can't, you're dead because you would have to get fuel from somewhere.

For securing Earth, it is entirely possible for the Zentraedi. If you haven't noticed, there are a lot of Zentraedi. They could secure the Earth just by deploying vast enough numbers to be everywhere at once. If you can't go more than a few kilometers in any direction without encountering the enemy, you have little chance of fighting a war beyond insurgent level.

If you want to go into "psychological worst case", the Zentraedi could just exterminate mankind outright, and almost did (although the fact that they had four million ships attacking for several minutes and failed to finish the job does not speak well of Zentraedi firepower). The only reason the Zentraedi were as "merciful" as they were was because they wanted to get their hands on a working Supervision Army ship. When it became clear that taking the SDF-1 without destroying it was not a realistic option they didn't really have a reason not to just wash their hands of the war and kill all humans (aside from cultural contamination, of course. The humans probably could have done a better job by incorporating Minmei and as many other musicians, artists, and other creative people into a full-blown psyops/propaganda office, but I digress). The best option in this case would be to gather up enough people to build a functional colony, flee into deep space towards a habitable world, and hope you don't get caught.

You really have three options: a stand-up conventional conflict where you can hope to drive off the enemy (probably not feasible, but it could weaken enemy forces enough to increase the chances of success for options B and/or C), an insurgent campaign where you make the cost of occupying Earth unreasonably high, or getting the hell off of Earth (since the option of breaking enemy morale through cultural sabotage that actually won the war in the series would not be apparent to strategists before the war for obvious reasons). Variable fighters are not the best choice for any of these options, and using more sensible units and strategies probably could have bought the UN more time and reduced the final death toll (option C might spare Earth conflict altogether unless the Zentraedi kill the people that didn't leave out of spite over the SDF-1 disappearing).
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 06:30:35 pm by Woolie Wool »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
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Offline Stormkeeper

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
... You all do realise your arguing about a fictional sci-fi series?
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
You do realize that some people actually like to think about the fiction they consume, especially if it takes itself seriously? The whole variable fighters things worked when Macross was a silly quasi-parody, but as it took itself more seriously the premise became increasingly unworkable. Warhammer 40,000 and super robot shows get a pass because they know they're ridiculous and they're honest about being ridiculous. Macross went from honestly ridiculous in the early episodes to deadly serious in the later ones and the whole thing started feeling increasingly schizophrenic as the series progressed.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline Stormkeeper

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
Yes, I do too, but not on a scale like having a ... rather excited argument over military theories, or transforming mecha vs a LAW.
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
Well that's what happens when you make a show about transforming mecha and then decide you want to make the show Serious Business and...oops! You've still got giant monster men, obnoxious Chinese pop singers, and transforming mecha, but now they stick out like a giant zit because you've changed the story so that silliness isn't appropriate anymore.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline Stormkeeper

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
Calm down, man. Retcon coupled with handwaving has always happened to games and especially anime. So why not just forget about how it used to be and enjoy the new serious business version?
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
...Because it doesn't work when it's serious business? Some things just don't work when you try to take them dead seriously. The best Macross episodes were the early ones when Hikaru was an idiot, every scene with Global began with him hitting his head on something, and Misa Hayase seemed to be on the verge of getting so worked up her head would explode all the time. Once they went into deep character development and epic sci-fi stories it broke down.

Much like the Star Wars prequels, come to think of it although Minmei was just slightly more bearable than "I hate sand".

If you want to make me take your dramatic story seriously it had better hold up to at least a cursory examination.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline Stormkeeper

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
Mmhmm. Then just enjoy which ever parts you enjoy, and bash whatever you want to bash. That's how most Star Wars fan treat the prequels.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
Where is the proof that no such man-portable weapon existed (I admit that I have not watched Macross Plus or Macross 7 yet, but I've watched all of SDF Macross)? Considering that the VF-1, a fairly small aircraft with lots of space and mass wasted for transformation, could mount not one but many weapons capable of taking out a Regult, I see no reason why a shoulder-mounted missile could take one out.

A Regult is huge compared to even a VF-1, and a VF-1 is not a small aircraft at all; truthfully size is most comparable to an F-111, not an F-14. A VF-1 is roughly sixty feet tall in B mode. It's also built using new armoring technologies that allow it to briefly resist fire from vastly more advanced weapons like Zentradi particle beams. (You did notice they were firing blue stuff from guns way too big, right?)

A Regult has another fifteen to twenty feet on a VF-1 in height and similar width. Even its weakest points have similar armoring. It is also considerably faster-moving then a tank and displays more overall motion; hitting a moving Regult in the knee with a missile is not a simple feat, and probably not possible for most shoulder-fired missile designs.

The standard weapon of the VF-1 is its a three-barrel rapid-fire 55mm gatling cannon firing depleted-uranium antitank rounds at hypervelocity speeds. VF-1 missiles are far too large to be shoulder-launched weapons, each of them being roughly the size and dimensions of a 500lb bomb. We don't see Regults die of proximity detonation like standard antiaircraft missiles function. They have to be killed by direct hits from large weapons or relatively sustained bursts from rapidfiring antiarmor guns of large size. A single ATGM might be able to penetrate Regult armor, but this is doubtful considering it's never attempted in any of the Macross series. It is, however, very unlikely to be sufficent to kill a Regult, otherwise cannon and missiles of the size and functionality we see VF-1s use to combat Regults would be totally unnecessary.

The rough field deployment could be taken care of by making it a VTOL. The articulated engines alone would be sufficient. As for field rearming, it's not necessary. If you can make it back to base, you go back to base. If you can't, you're dead because you would have to get fuel from somewhere.

It is rather important; consider the utility of simply being able to slap a new triple-ejector rack on and use the small waldos seen in the first few episodes to attach the explosive bolts vs. having to hoist it up and attach it with specialized equipment. Rearming missile stores can be accomplished in seconds, not minutes. Similarly, because of their great strength, a VF-1 is able to recover "injured" comrades from the field, we actually see that they have provision for recovering a complete cockpit section in the first few episodes, or whatever salvageable parts remain of fallen ones. It allows them to assist in major repair work as well. All the heavy lift equipment you can eliminate from the TO&E as unnecessary is to the good by making your dispersal sites smaller and easier to conceal.

For securing Earth, it is entirely possible for the Zentraedi. If you haven't noticed, there are a lot of Zentraedi. They could secure the Earth just by deploying vast enough numbers to be everywhere at once. If you can't go more than a few kilometers in any direction without encountering the enemy, you have little chance of fighting a war beyond insurgent level.

The people who designed the VF-1 did not know this, so the point is moot. They lacked faith in the relatively un-advanced ARMOR series to hold the line at high orbit or the SDF-1 to stand off a significant fleet alone, but they did not have any concept of the true size of the Zentradi fleets.

If you want to go into "psychological worst case", the Zentraedi could just exterminate mankind outright, and almost did (although the fact that they had four million ships attacking for several minutes and failed to finish the job does not speak well of Zentraedi firepower). The only reason the Zentraedi were as "merciful" as they were was because they wanted to get their hands on a working Supervision Army ship. When it became clear that taking the SDF-1 without destroying it was not a realistic option they didn't really have a reason not to just wash their hands of the war and kill all humans (aside from cultural contamination, of course. The humans probably could have done a better job by incorporating Minmei and as many other musicians, artists, and other creative people into a full-blown psyops/propaganda office, but I digress). The best option in this case would be to gather up enough people to build a functional colony, flee into deep space towards a habitable world, and hope you don't get caught.

Yes, but then at that point, there's no reason to plan at all...and they have no way of knowing biosphere extinction is even on the table. They have some understanding of Zentradi protocol. They know the SDF-1 was designed to be capable of controlled atmospheric entry and exit. They know the Zentradi, the very few of them, who were aboard at the time of the crash were equipped to conduct land warfare. These offer the clue that this is a race prepared to conduct a conventional assault rather than simply sterilize planets from orbit. However by the same token they also know that the SDF-1 has weapons capable of destroying city-sized targets from orbit.

The logical conclusion is that they will conduct operations with the intent to capture rather than destroy, since destruction is an objective that gains nothing for the doer. But the option to destroy relatively discrete targets on a planetary scale is also known to be there, and it would be best not to provoke its use on major economic and population centers in the long term.

You really have three options: a stand-up conventional conflict where you can hope to drive off the enemy (probably not feasible, but it could weaken enemy forces enough to increase the chances of success for options B and/or C), an insurgent campaign where you make the cost of occupying Earth unreasonably high, or getting the hell off of Earth (since the option of breaking enemy morale through cultural sabotage that actually won the war in the series would not be apparent to strategists before the war for obvious reasons). Variable fighters are not the best choice for any of these options, and using more sensible units and strategies probably could have bought the UN more time and reduced the final death toll (option C might spare Earth conflict altogether unless the Zentraedi kill the people that didn't leave out of spite over the SDF-1 disappearing).

The only acceptable option from a long-term view is A. They were working on that; hence rebuilding the SDF-1. Hence the ARMOR series. The VF-1 could ultimately serve either Option A in a conventional role with its rough-field and rapid redeployment abilities serving purely as force multipliers and B mode as the counterforce it was anticipated to need, or it could serve Option B in which it is nearly an ideal machine, or even Option C (replacing a multitude of heavy equipment for repair and construction with one single platform that can also serve as a defensive unit if attacked).
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
A Regult is huge compared to even a VF-1, and a VF-1 is not a small aircraft at all; truthfully size is most comparable to an F-111, not an F-14. A VF-1 is roughly sixty feet tall in B mode. It's also built using new armoring technologies that allow it to briefly resist fire from vastly more advanced weapons like Zentradi particle beams. (You did notice they were firing blue stuff from guns way too big, right?)
I haven't scaled it myself, but I've read that it's closer to 14 meters long in F mode and 10 meters tall in B. An average Zentraedi is around 9.5 meters tall. Breetai and Golg Bodolza are much taller, like the Zentraedi equivalent of basketball players.

Quote
A Regult has another fifteen to twenty feet on a VF-1 in height and similar width. Even its weakest points have similar armoring. It is also considerably faster-moving then a tank and displays more overall motion; hitting a moving Regult in the knee with a missile is not a simple feat, and probably not possible for most shoulder-fired missile designs.

The standard weapon of the VF-1 is its a three-barrel rapid-fire 55mm gatling cannon firing depleted-uranium antitank rounds at hypervelocity speeds. VF-1 missiles are far too large to be shoulder-launched weapons, each of them being roughly the size and dimensions of a 500lb bomb. We don't see Regults die of proximity detonation like standard antiaircraft missiles function. They have to be killed by direct hits from large weapons or relatively sustained bursts from rapidfiring antiarmor guns of large size. A single ATGM might be able to penetrate Regult armor, but this is doubtful considering it's never attempted in any of the Macross series. It is, however, very unlikely to be sufficent to kill a Regult, otherwise cannon and missiles of the size and functionality we see VF-1s use to combat Regults would be totally unnecessary.
It is known that overtechnology includes advanced explosive weapons. Reaction weapons are of course too indiscriminate, but maybe there are other choices. Also, there's a difference between the damage needed for an actual kill and the amount needed for a mission kill (making the Regult combat-ineffective, and possibly forcing the much more vulnerable Zentraedi pilot to disembark from his machine, leaving him open to a lethal second strike). The question is how much. As for the mention of fighter missile size, see my previous point about Valkyrie scaling.

Quote
It is rather important; consider the utility of simply being able to slap a new triple-ejector rack on and use the small waldos seen in the first few episodes to attach the explosive bolts vs. having to hoist it up and attach it with specialized equipment. Rearming missile stores can be accomplished in seconds, not minutes. Similarly, because of their great strength, a VF-1 is able to recover "injured" comrades from the field, we actually see that they have provision for recovering a complete cockpit section in the first few episodes, or whatever salvageable parts remain of fallen ones. It allows them to assist in major repair work as well. All the heavy lift equipment you can eliminate from the TO&E as unnecessary is to the good by making your dispersal sites smaller and easier to conceal.
The modular missile racks are a good idea and I think they ought to be retained, but I think the performance cost of putting these features on the VF-1 itself would likely be too great to justify putting it on the aircraft itself. A stripped-down repair/refitting mecha-like vehicle could be used to quickly work on Valkyries on ships and facilities, and be much smaller, lighter, and less expensive than a VF-1. Also, I don't recall ever seeing a VF-1 completely dismantle and overhaul another VF-1, and aircraft often require very extensive and delicate maintenance work. I don't think it's a good idea to marginally decrease repair time and difficulty of VF-1s by substantially decreasing their performance and thus increasing their risk of being damaged in the first place.

The people who designed the VF-1 did not know this, so the point is moot. They lacked faith in the relatively un-advanced ARMOR series to hold the line at high orbit or the SDF-1 to stand off a significant fleet alone, but they did not have any concept of the true size of the Zentradi fleets.
Considering that they were spacefaring aliens with a high technological level, I think "a lot more than us" is a quite reasonable estimate for an otherwise uninformed UN Spacy, even if they didn't know quite how stupendously huge the Zentraedi forces were. Societies tend to grow exponentially over time, and the Zentraedi would have been growing for a long time. That they would come in vast numbers compared to what Earth was used to was a virtual certainty.

Yes, but then at that point, there's no reason to plan at all...and they have no way of knowing biosphere extinction is even on the table. They have some understanding of Zentradi protocol. They know the SDF-1 was designed to be capable of controlled atmospheric entry and exit. They know the Zentradi, the very few of them, who were aboard at the time of the crash were equipped to conduct land warfare. These offer the clue that this is a race prepared to conduct a conventional assault rather than simply sterilize planets from orbit. However by the same token they also know that the SDF-1 has weapons capable of destroying city-sized targets from orbit.

The logical conclusion is that they will conduct operations with the intent to capture rather than destroy, since destruction is an objective that gains nothing for the doer. But the option to destroy relatively discrete targets on a planetary scale is also known to be there, and it would be best not to provoke its use on major economic and population centers in the long term.
Destruction would certainly gain something for the exterminator in some cases, especially in response to a guerilla insurgency that cannot be defeated through ordinary means. They cannot assume that the Zentraedi, if faced with an intractable resistance, would decide that if they could not have Earth, no one would, as human beings themselves have gone down this route in the past. In the face of an enemy that simply refuses to submit, conquerors can and have resorted to simply exterminating the enemy's people as a way to solve a costly and embarrassing problem.

(For some reason, I hadn't thought of surrender as an option, but faced with an enemy like the Zentraedi and with defeat via cultural assimilation not a forseeable circumstance, might have been attempted had the SDF-1's space fold not thrown it across the solar system and pulled the Zentraedi forces away from Earth to search for it)

Quote
The only acceptable option from a long-term view is A. They were working on that; hence rebuilding the SDF-1. Hence the ARMOR series. The VF-1 could ultimately serve either Option A in a conventional role with its rough-field and rapid redeployment abilities serving purely as force multipliers and B mode as the counterforce it was anticipated to need, or it could serve Option B in which it is nearly an ideal machine, or even Option C (replacing a multitude of heavy equipment for repair and construction with one single platform that can also serve as a defensive unit if attacked).
Without knowing of the Zentraedi's cultural weakness, A is simply not going to succeed. The UN could not defeat the Zentraedi in open warfare, period, not with one planet one full overtechnology ship, and a handful of hybrid designs. The most they could do with A is to slow the Zentraedi buy time for another option. B would have no use for a design like the VF-1 because it is too complicated and too expensive. Guerilla insurgent weapons are simple, easy to produce, and cheap. VFs are extremely complicated, require a lot of resources to build, and expensive. Without an established industrial base you cannot manufacture new Valkyries or spare parts. You would be forced to cannibalize spares until your forces are reduced to nothing. Option B would preclude the use of any kind of combat aircraft on a significant scale. Option C would make the VF-1's transforming ability, and probably its atmospheric adaptations, redundant. You would want a powerful starfighter that will destroy enemy raiders before they get to your escaping vessels.  All the repair, rearm, and manufacturing equipment would be buried inside the motherships. And if you offer to hand over the Supervision Army spacecraft and sue for peace (probably the first choice that should have been on the table--if they say no you can still fight anyway) and they accept your surrender the whole idea of military resistance is moot.

There is nothing the VF can do that something else can't do better, and cheaper, and probably in larger numbers to boot.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 08:54:28 pm by Woolie Wool »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline The E

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
The one thread on HLP that does not have a topic, and you go and ... err ... rail it? Whatever the opposite of derailing is, you just did it.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
I never intended for there to be a big argument, it just...happened.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
Super-Dimensional Forum Thread: Whatever Happens in Your Life
"Think about nice things not unhappy things.
The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
That's odd and funky sounding enough that I could imagine an actual anime with that title.

EDIT: If TV Tropes' description of Macross 7 is accurate, then apparently the creators of Macross actually earned that the whole silly transforming mecha thing kind of breaks down with a serious, dramatic story, because Macross 7 sounds like it's over the top to the point of sheer insanity.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 09:36:32 pm by Woolie Wool »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
I haven't scaled it myself, but I've read that it's closer to 14 meters long in F mode and 10 meters tall in B. An average Zentraedi is around 9.5 meters tall. Breetai and Golg Bodolza are much taller, like the Zentraedi equivalent of basketball players.

I'm not bothering with scaling. This is direct from supplementary materials. (They also give average Zentradi as between 40 and 50 feet, and Bodolza as nearly ninty.)

It is known that overtechnology includes advanced explosive weapons. Reaction weapons are of course too indiscriminate, but maybe there are other choices. Also, there's a difference between the damage needed for an actual kill and the amount needed for a mission kill (making the Regult combat-ineffective, and possibly forcing the much more vulnerable Zentraedi pilot to disembark from his machine, leaving him open to a lethal second strike). The question is how much. As for the mention of fighter missile size, see my previous point about Valkyrie scaling.

Even at their smallest, they're 250lb bomb size, that's still bigger than most vehicle-fired ATGMs like TOW. These are big weapons, complex, hard to produce. We actually do see Regults survive direct hits from these weapons on rare occasions and retain enough functionality to limp back to base, so a mission-kill with a smaller one will not be simple.

The modular missile racks are a good idea and I think they ought to be retained, but I think the performance cost of putting these features on the VF-1 itself would likely be too great to justify putting it on the aircraft itself. A stripped-down repair/refitting mecha-like vehicle could be used to quickly work on Valkyries on ships and facilities, and be much smaller, lighter, and less expensive than a VF-1. Also, I don't recall ever seeing a VF-1 completely dismantle and overhaul another VF-1, and aircraft often require very extensive and delicate maintenance work. I don't think it's a good idea to marginally decrease repair time and difficulty of VF-1s by substantially decreasing their performance and thus increasing their risk of being damaged in the first place.

That's true, but they did manage to repair crash damage when Hikaru was being a total klutz at the controls in the first few episodes, and it took a good bit of actual combat damage to stop his VT-1D. They were also designed to engage in hand-to-hand combat if needed. They have a level of shock-damage resistance that means they're basically durable machines and hard to break, more like tanks than aircraft. Since we don't know much about overtechnology, I think you're making a few assumptions that may not be warrented.

Considering that they were spacefaring aliens with a high technological level, I think "a lot more than us" is a quite reasonable estimate for an otherwise uninformed UN Spacy, even if they didn't know quite how stupendously huge the Zentraedi forces were. Societies tend to grow exponentially over time, and the Zentraedi would have been growing for a long time. That they would come in vast numbers compared to what Earth was used to was a virtual certainty.

Which was why they planned what they did, but it would take a ridiculously huge number, tens of millions, just to deal with Asia. Moving that number of people interstellar distances is tough, moving Zentradi is exponentially tougher because of their size. They planned for a reasonable force to take a planet in a conventional campaign. The force that came was totally unreasonable.

Destruction would certainly gain something for the exterminator in some cases, especially in response to a guerilla insurgency that cannot be defeated through ordinary means. They cannot assume that the Zentraedi, if faced with an intractable resistance, would decide that if they could not have Earth, no one would, as human beings themselves have gone down this route in the past. In the face of an enemy that simply refuses to submit, conquerors can and have resorted to simply exterminating the enemy's people as a way to solve a costly and embarrassing problem.

The Zentradi show a level of warmaking sophistication in their designs that belies this tendancy. Their equipment was advanced and relatively well-designed, which suggests they have gone beyond such a simplistic way of war. It was not the UN SPACY's to know that the Zentradi didn't actually make their own equipment. They had to make a guess based on what they knew. It was wrong, but it was not bad.

Without knowing of the Zentraedi's cultural weakness, A is simply not going to succeed. The UN could not defeat the Zentraedi in open warfare, period, not with one planet one full overtechnology ship, and a handful of hybrid designs. The most they could do with A is to slow the Zentraedi buy time for another option.

Yet A is the only rational object to select, as any other option leaves you in a significantly weaker posisition come the next round; and there will be a next round with any other option. Ultimately A is the goal, so you prepare for that one while having a contingency plan for B and C that can be executed if required. If given another twenty years then undoubtedly specialized designs would have appeared and composed the forces that would have opposed the Zentradi fleets. But they needed a new, interim weapon now that can do all these things, at once, while they learn how to build better and bigger and tougher and more powerful spaceships to hold the front line when the time comes. A VF-1 is unlikely to be more expensive to develop and produce than a new space fighter, atmospheric fighter, and ground mecha all at the same time, and has advantages for the contingency plans as noted.

B would have no use for a design like the VF-1 because it is too complicated and too expensive. Guerilla insurgent weapons are simple, easy to produce, and cheap. VFs are extremely complicated, require a lot of resources to build, and expensive. Without an established industrial base you cannot manufacture new Valkyries or spare parts. You would be forced to cannibalize spares until your forces are reduced to nothing. Option B would preclude the use of any kind of combat aircraft on a significant scale.

Two things: assumptions about overtechnology not warrented by facts, as noted above.

The Zentradi are aliens. It might be entirely possible to produce spares or new VFs under their noses. US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan have problems with people building bombs and carrying around weapons to use against them under their noses and the gaps of culture and langauge are significantly smaller there than with Zentradi.

Option C would make the VF-1's transforming ability, and probably its atmospheric adaptations, redundant. You would want a powerful starfighter that will destroy enemy raiders before they get to your escaping vessels.  All the repair, rearm, and manufacturing equipment would be buried inside the motherships.

Again, an interim weapon able to do many things. Quick to develop, relatively simple, minimal capablity needed to overcome a Regult or whatever their baseline was. One project, one weapon, devote more people to the things that will actually hold the line once they come onstream ten or fifteen years down the road.

There is nothing the VF can do that something else can't do better, and cheaper, and probably in larger numbers to boot.

Yes.

But not all at once.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
This is the Internet.  Expect random discussions about things that don't matter.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Stormkeeper

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
Yep. Never mind that even if you win, its like winning the special Olympics.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
Can you guys please do something more productive then arguing about a bunch of stuff that never happened.

Put bluntly, why the **** do you care? :P
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
I haven't scaled it myself, but I've read that it's closer to 14 meters long in F mode and 10 meters tall in B. An average Zentraedi is around 9.5 meters tall. Breetai and Golg Bodolza are much taller, like the Zentraedi equivalent of basketball players.
I'm not bothering with scaling. This is direct from supplementary materials. (They also give average Zentradi as between 40 and 50 feet, and Bodolza as nearly ninty.)
Which supplementary materials? Were they from Macross or Robotech (Robotech grossly overstated the size of Zentraedi numerous times)? IIRC, Global described the Zentraedi as "five times the height of a human", which would be around 9 meters. The site www.new-un-spacy.com corroborates this.

Even at their smallest, they're 250lb bomb size, that's still bigger than most vehicle-fired ATGMs like TOW. These are big weapons, complex, hard to produce. We actually do see Regults survive direct hits from these weapons on rare occasions and retain enough functionality to limp back to base, so a mission-kill with a smaller one will not be simple.
What about land mines or IEDs? You can build a much bigger bomb if all you have to do is set it down and detonate it remotely. It's certainly more accessible to a struggling insurgent force with no remaining industrial base than a transforming airplane.

That's true, but they did manage to repair crash damage when Hikaru was being a total klutz at the controls in the first few episodes, and it took a good bit of actual combat damage to stop his VT-1D. They were also designed to engage in hand-to-hand combat if needed. They have a level of shock-damage resistance that means they're basically durable machines and hard to break, more like tanks than aircraft. Since we don't know much about overtechnology, I think you're making a few assumptions that may not be warrented.
I don't see how it could possibly be unwarranted that a non-transforming fighter would have major performance advantages. Fewer moving parts (thus fewer parts that can fail), less mass devoted to articulation machinery and more mass that can be allocated to armor without making the machine unreasonably heavy, more internal space to allocate to armor and components, etc. These are extremely fundamental engineering principles that will not be invalidated by any new technologies, ever.

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Which was why they planned what they did, but it would take a ridiculously huge number, tens of millions, just to deal with Asia. Moving that number of people interstellar distances is tough, moving Zentradi is exponentially tougher because of their size. They planned for a reasonable force to take a planet in a conventional campaign. The force that came was totally unreasonable.
Point conceded, but good luck even attempting to conceal an aircraft manufacturing plant from orbital or aerial surveillance. A small base might not get caught, but you aren't going to hide something like that, and you have to build VF-1s somewhere if you want to replace losses.

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The Zentradi show a level of warmaking sophistication in their designs that belies this tendancy. Their equipment was advanced and relatively well-designed, which suggests they have gone beyond such a simplistic way of war. It was not the UN SPACY's to know that the Zentradi didn't actually make their own equipment. They had to make a guess based on what they knew. It was wrong, but it was not bad.
Indiscriminate destruction and spite are not necessarily features of primitive barbarians. Simply put, if the Zentraedi invade Earth and encounter a quagmire, it is a big problem for them. It ties up resources they could use to fight other enemies, it exhausts the soldiers' patience, it looks bad for them and hurts morale, and it's generally an inconvenience. If securing Earth is difficult enough, why not just kill them all and end the pointless waste of lives and materiel? They gain nothing from Earth if the pesky miclones keep making a mess of everything they try to do with it. It's not like the Zentraedi have any concept of sentient rights or anything, and to expect them to would be the height of folly--to the pre-war UN they might, but it's best not to count on it. Advanced technology is not a package deal with "modern" scruples or concern for the lives of those outside the group. There's no reason to expect them to give a damn if all the miclones die.

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Yet A is the only rational object to select, as any other option leaves you in a significantly weaker posisition come the next round; and there will be a next round with any other option. Ultimately A is the goal, so you prepare for that one while having a contingency plan for B and C that can be executed if required. If given another twenty years then undoubtedly specialized designs would have appeared and composed the forces that would have opposed the Zentradi fleets. But they needed a new, interim weapon now that can do all these things, at once, while they learn how to build better and bigger and tougher and more powerful spaceships to hold the front line when the time comes. A VF-1 is unlikely to be more expensive to develop and produce than a new space fighter, atmospheric fighter, and ground mecha all at the same time, and has advantages for the contingency plans as noted.
A is absolutely not rational--it was impossible to achieve victory; the Zentraedi are completely superior to the UN Spacy in every meaningful way, and it was obvious from the beginning. There is a zero chance of the UN Spacy defeating the Zentraedi in all out war; it was not going to happen, and if the UN Spacy leaders had six brain cells between them, they knew it was not going to happen (what their original strategy was, we'll probably never know, because the SDF-1 derailed it in the first couple of episodes). They might be able to stall the Zentraedi for a while, but they sure as hell weren't going to beat them. The idea of being in a stronger position the next round is irrelevant, because there isn't going to be a next round in an all-out conflict because the UN will utterly crushed.

The only options that are not doomed to total failure are to wage a guerilla insurgent campaign to bloody the Zentraedi's noses and cause a quagmire (but this risks provoking annihilation), to surrender (if they accept it), or to flee and hope the Zentraedi don't follow them (ideally, the escape fleet should be launched before the Zentraedi show up, and the SDF-1 should leave with it to deny the Zentraedi their reason to be there at all, but this didn't happen).

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Two things: assumptions about overtechnology not warrented by facts, as noted above.
High technology comes with a higher required base and additional secondary technologies; that's just a fact of life. To build technology A, you require technologies B and C, which require technologies D, E, F, and G, and so on. There is no reason to think this would change in the future when it is the rule for pretty much every new technology in human history.

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The Zentradi are aliens. It might be entirely possible to produce spares or new VFs under their noses. US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan have problems with people building bombs and carrying around weapons to use against them under their noses and the gaps of culture and langauge are significantly smaller there than with Zentradi.
Absurd. You don't need similar cultures to recognize industrial facilities when you see them; the machinery and facilities are the same whether you're American or Chinese or 30-foot-tall space aliens (although the latter's facilities might be larger). Also, you cannot compare VFs to the sort of crude weapons insurgents manufacture (and exactly the kind of weapons I described). You can build an IED out of some basic electronics (probably stolen or smuggled from another country, options not available to the UN), an ignition source (those have existed since the Stone Age), and fertilizer. A firearm can be constructed with a simple metal press; the Palestinian Jews, before Israeli independence, built thousands of Sten submachine guns on farms with little or no advanced tooling. Crude gunpowder can be made with a basic chemistry set and urine (yes, urine). The sort of facilities, techniques, and resources that go into even a modern aircraft, let alone a VF, are orders of magnitude greater and, accordingly, more difficult to conceal. The insurgents can easily build IEDs under our noses, but they don't build MiG-29s under our noses (or at all, for that matter). The IED is the classic insurgent weapon. It's crude, can be made without advanced technologies or techniques in covert sites, extremely cheap, and reasonably powerful. A variable fighter completely fails the first three of these criteria.

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Again, an interim weapon able to do many things. Quick to develop, relatively simple, minimal capablity needed to overcome a Regult or whatever their baseline was. One project, one weapon, devote more people to the things that will actually hold the line once they come onstream ten or fifteen years down the road.
The UN Spacy did not have 10-15 years. The length of the war against the Zentraedi, were it not for the SDF-1 malfunctioning and throwing both the UN and the Zentraedi for a loop, would have been measured in weeks, not years. And furthermore, they already had not one but many other mecha designs that were far more capable on the ground than a VF-1. A Spartan or Monster makes the VF-1's armament look like a Nerf gun. One can only imagine that their manned overtechnology fighters were similar (the robot fighters launched from the space carriers weren't really comparable, they seemed more like disposable swarm machines than real fighters).

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Yes.

But not all at once.
One platform that does five things poorly is always overshadowed by five platforms that do one thing well. A few people tried this sort of approach in WWII--it didn't work out very well, as evidenced by the M1938 Christie tank (a flying tank that was absolutely horrendous at being either an aircraft or a tank), German U-cruisers (basically a submarine/cruiser hybrid, also a failure), zeppelin aircraft carriers (a big, slow, flammable target that carried some of the most pathetic, useless fighters ever built), various attempts at "battlecarriers" (none made it to the battlefield), etc. Compromise designs are greatly inferior to designs with a clearly defined mission profile, and the drawbacks outweigh the benefits.

Can you guys please do something more productive then arguing about a bunch of stuff that never happened.

Put bluntly, why the **** do you care? :P

Because it gives some people a smug sense of superiority to quash discussions because they're too geeky or something.:P

See also: many Something Awful goons. "Uhuhuhuh, look at those [pick an insult: retards/faggots/neckbeards/aspies/furries] arguing over Star Wars, I'm going to feel smarmy and superior even though I spent real money to get on a ****ing internet forum."

@everyone else: Jesus Christ, if you want to see other discussions here, then post something to discuss, it's not like the mods will delete your posts for not being about the validity of variable fighters now.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 11:45:40 pm by Woolie Wool »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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Offline Stormkeeper

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Re: Wh473v3r H4pp3n$ 1n ¥0µr £1ƒ3: ƒ0r3v3r
That's odd and funky sounding enough that I could imagine an actual anime with that title.
Sounds like it'll be rather Excel Saga-ish.
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