[Droid803]

You can build multiple Dyson Swarms around multiple stars to the same effect as a Dyson Sphere...

[Kie99]

Like hell. Shivans are less than or equal to 1.

Ridiculous comment.  Shivans control several systems worth of planets and obviously expend a lot of energy in creating juggernauts.  Considering we're already on about 0.7 it's highly unlikely that the Shivans haven't topped 1 yet.

[Mars]

First of all: answer me this.

How could we be using nearly all of the planets power if we're not converting it directly into energy?

How do we figure we're .7? I see that it says that on the wiki, but it makes no sense.

In order for the Shivans to be II on the scale, they'd need to be using ALL of the power available from a sun. That's a ridiculous amount of energy, capable of vaporizing everything else in a given solar system. A fraction of that power would be necessary to create the entire Shivan fleet (as seen in game) over the course, of say, a year. How do YOU figure they're II?

And for the love of God, these are not rhetorical questions.

Unless you can prove that they do indeed use ALL the power from a star, (for something other than a nova) yours is the ridiculous comment.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Now I know why Mars says that this scale's ridiculous. There's too much ambiguity.

[General Battuta]

I think the scale itself is actually very well defined, but we should really hunt down a good, firm definition if we're going to continue the debate.

[Aardwolf]

I agree; the scale is well defined.

I could define Zababababadaturakaplo as floating pink elephants the size of your left big toe, that live in Spain and like to drink iced tea while listening to punk metal but in all other cases prefer listening to Alicia Keyes, and I could go on defining it until there is absolutely no ambiguity in the matter -- it's still completely useless.

The problem is that defining something well doesn't make it any more practical.

[General Battuta]

The Kardashev scale is a good metric of the development of a civilization.

I just think we're underestimating the gap between I, II, and III by a good amount. It's a logarithmic scale, after all.

Remember, it's a theoretical framework, not a specific metric -- even when there are specific numbers attached to it. You're intended to assign a civilization a ballpark Kardashev value, not a specific one.

It's the cosmic way of saying 'yeah, he's pretty ripped' as compared to 'mildly fit.' You don't need to specify muscle mass.

[Kie99]

First of all: answer me this.

How could we be using nearly all of the planets power if we're not converting it directly into energy?

How do we figure we're .7? I see that it says that on the wiki, but it makes no sense.

In order for the Shivans to be II on the scale, they'd need to be using ALL of the power available from a sun. That's a ridiculous amount of energy, capable of vaporizing everything else in a given solar system. A fraction of that power would be necessary to create the entire Shivan fleet (as seen in game) over the course, of say, a year. How do YOU figure they're II?

And for the love of God, these are not rhetorical questions.

Unless you can prove that they do indeed use ALL the power from a star, (for something other than a nova) yours is the ridiculous comment.

I'm not arguing they use ALL the power from a star, although I reckon they probably could, I'm arguing that they're greater than I, that is, they use more than the power from a planet.  You don't need to use all the power from a star to be greater than I.

[Mars]

But planets don't produce power themselves.

[Topgun]

yes they do. sorta. (in the core)

[Mars]

But that's not the energy we use and we're supposedly .7

[Topgun]

yeah, we use it. geothermal energy is what they are calling it these days.
anyway, we fusion, so that makes us awesome.
too bad we don't use it at a grand scale....

[Molybdenum]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_energy_budget

Most of a planets power output is solar energy and we harness a fair deal of it by growing crops.

[Mars]

Thank you.

[Polpolion]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_energy_budget

Most of a planets power output is solar energy and we harness a fair deal of it by growing crops.

Ermm... Solar energy isn't exactly "planet" power output.

[Droid803]

Its power output accessible on the planet.

[terran_emperor]

yeah, we use it. geothermal energy is what they are calling it these days.
anyway, we fusion, so that makes us awesome.
too bad we don't use it at a grand scale....

We dont use Fusion in nuclear reactors we use Fission...
Fusion is still many years away

[Droid803]

We have experimental fusion reactors.
We're using them for research.
Fusion power plants are many years away.

[Polpolion]

I still haven't seen any reasonable evidence suggesting that the Shivans are >=2, other than "OMG!! SHIVANS ARE GODLIEK!!!" or "TEH GTVA IS LIEK 0.7 THE SHIVANS MUSSST BE LIKE 8."

[Excalibur]

But that's not the energy we use and we're supposedly .7

As far as I know, logarithms and the difference between 0.72 and 1.00 doesn't mean we use 72% of a planet's energy. If you see an e^(ex) graph, which I hope is sort of like a log graph except y = f(x), then x = 0.72 means y = 7.17, x= 1.00 means y = 15.15. I think log graphs are even steeper than this, so we may only be using 28%...

Is that right? :???: