[Polpolion]

This is stupid.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7853803.stm

Ten days only! Good gracious!

That has got to be the shortest ceasefire ever. What the Hell is going on over there? One attack and the book gets thrown all over the place! Again!

[TrashMan]

It's a hole in the law Israel exploits, that much we all gathered.

A hole in the law would be doing something it doesn't directly address. This is exactly what it addresses for these exact purposes so that when a country is under attack they can occupy an area of the enemy. The only holes here are the 7 you and I both posses and the one in your argument.

pffft. You're arguments have bigger holes than the Titanic.

It's always weapons chaches or terrorist. Everywhere. Under every rock. Level the whole damn country while you're at it.

Even if there were weapon chances in the mill (and I've seen no proof whatsoever there ever was anything in there, like the UNWRA headquaters), given the importance of that structure to the whole civilian population, you shouldn't destroy it. Send troops to search it or size it.
But cutting millions of people from water and food is easier right...and not genocidal?

I have yet to see proof that there was a mill at all. would you please link to stories you are talking about? I have no doubt there is but how can you expect anyone to guess at what was going on?

And there ARE weapons caches or terrorist hideouts or rocket or mortar launchers everywhere. You laugh but you actually don't have any idea how true it is what you are so flippantly saying.

Depending on the location you may be right about the air strike or you may be wrong. If it was in a field far away from the city or residential areas where ambushes could easily be laid and lots of civilian targets I would say sure send an incursion of ground troops in to the mill. However if it was in the middle of Gaza city the risk to the soldiers and other human life would be to great for just one target. You send in troops and there will be gunfights and people caught in the crossfire and in such a densely populated area such as that... better to use a precision air strike and take out the building.

Yeah it's a shame that it was a building that was meant for the good, but when it is used for evil are you going to blame the people who made it evil or the people who destroyed the evil? The media doesn't report on it so I wouldn't expect you to know this but the Palestinians blame Israel and or Hamas for their troubles. They all blame someone sometimes both but after this last war the amount of people who laid the blame solely on Hamas GREW precisely for the reasons YOU just stated. For the mills and water plants for the houses and schools because unlike you they are under no illusion that hamas does and WANTS to use these facilities to illicit exactly the response you are giving them.

I hope the media figures this out one day that it's partially because they have played into Hamas hands that the Palestinian children and civilians are being put in harms way. Sickening.

I do believe there are plenty of weapon chaches and that Hamas is indeed spread around - but I do not, even for a second, believe that they manage to turn EVERY FRIGGING MOSK, SCHOOL OR OTHER IMPORTANT STRUCTURE into a nests of terrorism. I also believe that Israels response was overblown, incorrect and their methodology is flawed.
More buildings were leveled then there are supposed Hamas fighters. Who the heck where they killing?
Why is it that Israel levels almost all of the infrastructure every few years? It's like the friggin want those people to starve and remain poor and live in terrible conditions. Have they learned nothing?

[Splinter]

pffft. You're arguments have bigger holes than the Titanic.

I'm glad you had something to say to back that up with too, Napoleon Dynamite, otherwise it would have just looked sill... oh wait 

I at least tried to explain why your argument was flawed... I guess I am just wrong for more obvious reasons right? 

I do believe there are plenty of weapon chaches and that Hamas is indeed spread around - but I do not, even for a second, believe that they manage to turn EVERY FRIGGING MOSK, SCHOOL OR OTHER IMPORTANT STRUCTURE into a nests of terrorism. I also believe that Israels response was overblown, incorrect and their methodology is flawed.
More buildings were leveled then there are supposed Hamas fighters. Who the heck where they killing?
Why is it that Israel levels almost all of the infrastructure every few years? It's like the friggin want those people to starve and remain poor and live in terrible conditions. Have they learned nothing?

Did I say "every frigging mosk"? No. Did anyone say that Israel struck every mosque in Gaza today? No. Why would you assume that they have hit every single infrastructure building belonging to Palestinians? You do realize that no one is going to report on a building that had nothing happen to it right? "Todays headline - Gaza, Israel: 99.98% of all infrastructure buildings were not hit by bombs today and no one was injured."

So you believe there are weapons caches. Do you believe that Hamas are A: Smart, evil and desperate. Or B: Dumb, irrational and bored? Do you understand that they purposefully put their influence whether it be themselves or their weapons or their staging grounds in these highly sensitive positions on purpose so that it if there is no response because of the significance of the location or structure they win and if there is a response it is also a win for them? There has never been a real life scenario that I have witnessed that more perfectly imbibes the phrase "damned if you do, damned if you don't". So if you were president which 'win' would you give them? Would you let them use the structure to rain death down on your civilian population and fold your arms in front of your chest and say "that's not fair you stop that right now" while completely breaking the oath you took to uphold the most important role of that office the preservation of your citizens lives? Or would you go for denying them usage of that facility and having to wade through international condemnation for being too aggressive? I don't know maybe in the rest of the world they don't love their families enough to decide that their lives are more important than the ones trying to kill them... 

How many buildings were leveled? How many Hamas fighters are there 'supposedly'? And where the hell are those links to the stories that started your rant on this in the first place. Seriously man this is ridiculous. I don't care if it's on Al Jazeera website just give me something show me some report about:

Tell me, why did the IDF bomb food and clothing factories, water planets, and even the biggest mill in the region? Now the palestinians have to import flour from ISRAEL at 50% higher prices. Nothing strange about that?

[Janos]

- There has never been a real life scenario that I have witnessed that more perfectly imbibes the phrase "damned if you do, damned if you don't".
- I don't know maybe in the rest of the world they don't love their families enough to decide that their lives are more important than the ones trying to kill them...
- Would you let them use the structure to rain death down on your civilian population and fold your arms in front of your chest and say "that's not fair you stop that right now" while completely breaking the oath you took to uphold the most important role of that office the preservation of your citizens lives?

rock solid

also today has nothing to do with yesterday.

[Mika]

You cannot find peace in Middle East by digging up what has happened before. That will not help the case at all and I think it has never helped in any conflict. It is much more constructive to start with clean tables. And by that I mean both sides must start with clean tables. I don't care what happened and who started what, it has to end, on both sides. That way the primitive trust on both sides is achieved, after which things should start to happen automatically.

Sometimes I wonder if it was a good idea for UN to really ENFORCE the peace there. If people don't behave, get enough Peacekeepers (non-participant countries) for policing to root out the non-behaving people. Apply same rules on both ways. In any incident where cease fire or peace is broken, declare it as a violation against international law and take the participants found in such action to international criminal court and jail them for sufficiently long time. Equally on both sides.

From all the videos linked I see Israeli officials on the border working with considerable restraint, behaving nicely given the circumstances. That might have been different in 1960s, but again, what does it matter any more?

Mika

[Janos]

You cannot find peace in Middle East by digging up what has happened before. That will not help the case at all and I think it has never helped in any conflict. It is much more constructive to start with clean tables. And by that I mean both sides must start with clean tables. I don't care what happened and who started what, it has to end, on both sides. That way the primitive trust on both sides is achieved, after which things should start to happen automatically.

Sometimes I wonder if it was a good idea for UN to really ENFORCE the peace there. If people don't behave, get enough Peacekeepers (non-participant countries) for policing to root out the non-behaving people. Apply same rules on both ways. In any incident where cease fire or peace is broken, declare it as a violation against international law and take the participants found in such action to international criminal court and jail them for sufficiently long time. Equally on both sides.

From all the videos linked I see Israeli officials on the border working with considerable restraint, behaving nicely given the circumstances. That might have been different in 1960s, but again, what does it matter any more?

Mika

But history and current events are not unrelated! They don't happen in vacuum! Conflict in 15th January 2009 is very relevant when discussing conflict in 25th January 2009. Gaza conflict and the latest Intifada, as well as Lebanon war to a smaller degree, are extremely important while trying to solve the entire mess. Things get forgotten, age will heal many wounds, but if Israel bombs Gaza ten days after the ceasefire it simply cannot be dealt with without tying it to the prevailing political climate and situation there.

UN Peacekeepers would be a good idea, but they can only work if a framework for peace is accomplished, the people are ready for them and their presence is guaranteened by nasty things if the sides do not cooperate. Trying to force Hamas and Israel, both of them, to peace? Right now, the idea of anyone sending any forces to Gaza is outlandish.

[Mika]

I'm thinking a little bit different peacekeeping. Backed by a couple of aircraft carriers for example would be a good start. Dozen missile cruisers and destroyers offshore along with 1000 aircraft operating in the airspace, with about one million peacekeepers in the area should equalize the situation. Add in a comment like "If you can't fix that mess yourselves, then we will do it for you - with our rules. We grew tired to watch that stuff any more!"

I see that the problem is that UN doesn't have anything to back up their words at their disposal there. The another problem is that UN is being used as a cover by terrorists and on the either hand, is belittled by Israel which causes it to become a laughing stock by both sides. Deployment of that kind of force would make things a little bit more equal and maybe they would start to listen what they say a little bit carefully. The condition for that is that there will be no participants from Arabic countries or from Israel in that force, nor the people can have any connections towards either of them. Maybe NATO would be better equipped to do this? EU and USA could actually solve this if they decided so.

Mika

[Janos]

I'm thinking a little bit different peacekeeping. Backed by a couple of aircraft carriers for example would be a good start. Dozen missile cruisers and destroyers offshore along with 1000 aircraft operating in the airspace, with about one million peacekeepers in the area should equalize the situation. Add in a comment like "If you can't fix that mess yourselves, then we will do it for you - with our rules. We grew tired to watch that stuff any more!"

who would do it

against a potent military with nuclear weapons

this is so far out there that, well.

I see that the problem is that UN doesn't have anything to back up their words at their disposal there. The another problem is that UN is being used as a cover by terrorists and on the either hand, is belittled by Israel which causes it to become a laughing stock by both sides. Deployment of that kind of force would make things a little bit more equal and maybe they would start to listen what they say a little bit carefully. The condition for that is that there will be no participants from Arabic countries or from Israel in that force, nor the people can have any connections towards either of them. Maybe NATO would be better equipped to do this? EU and USA could actually solve this if they decided so.

Mika

UN is a discussion forum for nations of the world.

[Mika]

who would do it

against a potent military with nuclear weapons

this is so far out there that, well.

The only participants that I believe who could do this are USA and EU, so basically NATO.

About nukes then, well you simply launch more nukes yourself there if that becomes a problem. Besides, that would only be assured destruction to Israeli side, so them starting it doesn't make sense to me at all. Besides, why should it matter at all? USA went to Iraq knowing that if dictator had nukes or WMDs he would have used them. But that didn't stop them at all. So why now?

About the potency of the war machine then, why is that even relevant? Why would they want to stop that kind of peace process? Yeah, Israel could surely mount casualities, but in the end they would be doomed and they would also know it. Unlike Arabs, EU and USA can actually stop Israeli war machine (and also the country) from running without firing a single shot. So why they would start it in the first place?

The main purpose is simply to kick start the peace by policing the area until termination of hostilities, and I suppose even the Israeli would be happy to see that IDF doesn't need to handle that any more. I don't see this as far out but maybe we should consult Israelis here.

I have given my solution to problem and I stand by it. You don't have to think the same way.

Mika

[Flipside]

Problem is, we are talking about governments who give every impression that watching the world burn is worth it for the sake of getting their own way, some of them even look forward to it.

[Mika]

So the message caused by amassing troops there should say "We burn YOU if you even think about it!"

Mika

[TrashMan]

How many buildings were leveled? How many Hamas fighters are there 'supposedly'? And where the hell are those links to the stories that started your rant on this in the first place. Seriously man this is ridiculous. I don't care if it's on Al Jazeera website just give me something show me some report about:

I'm drawing from my memory here, but I read about hunderds of thousands people that lost their home, with Hamas having a esitmated 20 000 armed fighters.

You believe what you want Janos, but one has to be pretty blind not to see that Israel has gone apsh** insane. (IMHO)

You also have to be pretty gullible that every important structure Israel did hit was a nest of terrorism, when you got reports of the contrary.

[redsniper]

It is my belief that you are not in a position to comment on gullibility and blindness.

[Splinter]

The main purpose is simply to kick start the peace by policing the area until termination of hostilities, and I suppose even the Israeli would be happy to see that IDF doesn't need to handle that any more. I don't see this as far out but maybe we should consult Israelis here.

I couldn't agree more. I would like nothing more than an international peacekeeping force in Gaza finding out first hand what is going on there and then the world can see what THEY have to say about it.

Side note: UN peacekeeping forces historically and presently (Lebanon) don't block Israels operations... well they learned not to. If I remember correctly there was an incident with an APC of theirs firing it's machine gun on an IDF tank. Needless to say we gave the gunner of the APC the Israeli Darwin award that year. Never mind... after further research I was remembering the incident correctly but substitute UN for Lebanese Army. They got it wrong though. It was an APC that fired warning shots into the air over IDF soldiers searching for mines and the tank blew the thing away. Weird that it wasn't reported that way.

Here is a video of Finnish UN peace keepers in Lebanon trying to block an Israeli heavy APC and tank from getting to wherever they were going... kinda funny. For the Finish members here Israelis actually like the Finish they are suckers for societies with predominantly blond women but in this case it really didn't matter WHO was in the UN trucks... the IDF just had to get through. Nothing personal yay Finland

My point however is that this peacekeeping force would actually have to stop the rocket and mortar attacks because it would take one hell of an international force to stop the IDF from responding... again this is based on history not on "thus sayeth me such and such will happen."

I'm drawing from my memory here, but I read about hunderds of thousands people that lost their home, with Hamas having a esitmated 20 000 armed fighters.

You believe what you want Janos, but one has to be pretty blind not to see that Israel has gone apsh** insane. (IMHO)

I read about Zenu and his galactic cruisers. I also read that Apes replaced human beings in the future. I read that Frodo destroyed the ring and I read that Aslan is a freaking talking lion.

How about the "massacre" in operation defensive shield in Jenin? you read about that? What was discovered in the end? not 500 people massacred and half the town destroyed like they claimed. It was "52 to 56 Palestinians, of whom 5-26 may have been civilians. 23 IDF soldiers were also killed in the fighting." from the Wiki article on the Battle of Jenin.

you know what is even sadder then the lie of a 500 person massacre? The fact that media worldwide ate it up immediately without checking into it and all over the world people still believe that is what happened you know why? it's because of something even sadder. Because when the truth came out no media outlet had the balls to admit they were wrong. And they never do.

The media will jump on any juicy story and when it turns out sometimes to be false they won't retract it because it's old news and it's not interesting to hear that something juicy didn't happen. (see my previous point about buildings that weren't destroyed) and it's not good for ratings and credibility either.

So drawing from MY memory I read about hundreds of thousands of people who lied about the situation just to get some sympathy.

I am not denying that Israel has a policy of destroying the homes of terrorists and that many homes have been destroyed. I am simply saying that to base your entire argument on memory of things you have read that you either can't find or can't be bothered to look for. Do a little research present the facts that are available to you so that you not only bolster you and your arguments credibility but you also provide the most accurate information available to you for those who are learning about the situation from right here in this thread. Because to you this may be some far off effed up situation but to me and 7+ million others this is life.

You also have to be pretty gullible that every important structure Israel did hit was a nest of terrorism, when you got reports of the contrary.

You have to be pretty gullible if you believe every report you read. Although that is the information that is available to you so why would you believe any different? Well just know that every story has two sides and the side that has been proven more often than not to be exaggerating and lying to the media and the world is the terrorists (see Jenin) because they have the most to gain from it. Again most of this is simple logic that eludes most, even brilliant, people.

I am not saying every single report you read is a biased exaggerated lie however you need to really test these things ESPECIALLY if you get your news from the BBC... *shudder* Al Jazeera has had more unbiased and honest reporting regarding Israel than whatever low life writes for the mid east section of the BBC. They are so bad that the Israeli SNL did a little skit about their reporting. It's funny but kinda sad how close to the truth it is.

[Splinter]

Just ran across this and I couldn't help myself.

[Dilmah G]

  @ the skit

[Wanderer]

Interestingly enough ATM BBC is being blamed for being too neutral/pro-Israel (ie. not participating in the charity appeal).. So i bit more inclined to believe BBC reporting to be far closer to the truth than the other sources.

That is I don't believe a word claimed coming from Hamas or IDF - both sides just try to glorify and polish their deeds while trying to downplay the war crimes. Given that IDF for example first blatantly lied about the use of white phosphorous and then changed their story to 'not having used it against civilians' while shelling WP at urban areas.. yeah... right... And how much do i trust their numbers on the killed Hamas combatants... given that they already lied.. hmm.. none?

As for IDF bullying over peacekeepers..  Its kinda easy to play rough when going with tank (or APC converted from a tank) against light APC... After that UN forces in Lebanon actually got tanks (French with Leclercs) and they stopped IDF on their tracks.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

[size=9]STAY STRONG, BBC![/size]

[TrashMan]

I am not denying that Israel has a policy of destroying the homes of terrorists and that many homes have been destroyed. I am simply saying that to base your entire argument on memory of things you have read that you either can't find or can't be bothered to look for. Do a little research present the facts that are available to you so that you not only bolster you and your arguments credibility but you also provide the most accurate information available to you for those who are learning about the situation from right here in this thread. Because to you this may be some far off effed up situation but to me and 7+ million others this is life.

What makes you think I'm drawing all my arguments from memory? What makes you think I read from only one source?
There never is a 100% guarantee that what you read is true, but when sufficient evidence mounts up, chances for story 1 being true are greately increased.

Besides, the numbers speak for themselves.You can say what you want but a response of this caliber, with this much destruction and death, all over a few rockets fired? Wrong, beyond a shadow of a doubt.