[StarSlayer]

My apologies.  I was reading that as the defeat of the soviet forces being impossible if not for the grace of Allah.  I was about to say the billions of dollars in treasure and material from the US and Saudis not to mention the skill of commanders like Massoud had to count for something

[TrashMan]

Yeah, but he's not describing your Christian God any more. So where does that leave you? Falling back to Deism?

Why do you think that? You think that the name defines God? That if someone calls Him by a different name that suddenly makes Him a different God altogether?
As I said before - God, Allah, Jehovah ... the same Big Guy, different name and different customs.

I also noticed how you didn't even try to tackle the Russians being driven out of Afghanistan by the mujahideen. Given that science cannot explain that without tearing itself apart, the only logical conclusion is that the answer lies with Allah.

And you didn't even try to tackle the mysterious instances of people who've forgotten entire hours of their lives and experienced complete personality changes. Given that science cannot explain these without tearing itself apart, the only logical conclusion is that aliens really are taking us into their ships and changing us.

Very bad example, since alternate explanations do very much exist. And those aren't miracles.

Like all of religion, you're simply attributing everything that seems remotely mysterious to God -- without cause, or reason.

You often claim to be a scientific, rational person. You should know that the fact that science doesn't have an immediate, explicit answer for something doesn't mean science has 'torn itself apart.' (In this case, it's pretty obviously a case of the patient's immune system rejecting the tumor.)

If the only way for a miracle to happen is to...let's say, violate the law of thermodynamics of the conservation of energy...then yes, I'd say science HAS torn itself apart, since such laws are the friggin backbone of science, proven beyond any doubt.

Too many things are pointing towards God for me to ignore them.

[TrashMan]

TrashMan, the point is that I can say anything I want about Harvey, god, the invisible pink unicorn, etc. and I have just as much proof that it's true as you do.  I'm not describing anything grander, i'm putting down a series of words. 

Not really. A magical creature and God have nothing in common really (except the fact that you can't prove they exist).
As I said, a magical unicorn isn't even remotely believable by itself, while God is.
 

Your tumor story I can't deal with because I don't know any of the details, and if it's viewed as a miracle, then it's quite likely that nobody else does either.  Magic doesn't happen in the real world.  The illogical conclusion is that the answer lies beyond science.  The logical conclusion is that something happened that we don't fully understand yet.  Give it time, and those few gaps your god lives in will all eventually disappear.

It's documented. By doctors and x-rays and lab tests. Same tests made on the person before and after. One minute is there, the next it's gone.
The "gaps" you refer too is the whole friggin universe. Good luck trying to close that one.

[Ghostavo]

TrashMan, the point is that I can say anything I want about Harvey, god, the invisible pink unicorn, etc. and I have just as much proof that it's true as you do.  I'm not describing anything grander, i'm putting down a series of words. 

Not really. A magical creature and God have nothing in common really (except the fact that you can't prove they exist).
As I said, a magical unicorn isn't even remotely believable by itself, while God is.

Let me tell you a little secret, God is magic. You may try to rant all you want, but at the end of the day, God is magic.

It acts through supernatural means? Magic.

You pray so that god acts in a way you want? Magic.

Religion is all about magic either people want it or not. The problem is that nowadays magic is identified as parlor tricks and so people want to distance themselves from it.

[General Battuta]

Yeah, but he's not describing your Christian God any more. So where does that leave you? Falling back to Deism?

Why do you think that? You think that the name defines God? That if someone calls Him by a different name that suddenly makes Him a different God altogether?
As I said before - God, Allah, Jehovah ... the same Big Guy, different name and different customs.

Except that many of the accounts of this 'Big Guy' are contradictory. But you think your version is the true one. Why?

I also noticed how you didn't even try to tackle the Russians being driven out of Afghanistan by the mujahideen. Given that science cannot explain that without tearing itself apart, the only logical conclusion is that the answer lies with Allah.

And you didn't even try to tackle the mysterious instances of people who've forgotten entire hours of their lives and experienced complete personality changes. Given that science cannot explain these without tearing itself apart, the only logical conclusion is that aliens really are taking us into their ships and changing us.

Very bad example, since alternate explanations do very much exist. And those aren't miracles.

That's exactly what I said about your tumor story.

[StarSlayer]

how do you know its not a Gal?

[colecampbell666]

As I said, a magical unicorn isn't even remotely believable by itself, while God is.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

And what blackhole's been saying.

[iamzack]

I think Trashman is a troll. He can't possibly be so blind as to miss all the irony he spouts.

[colecampbell666]

If he is, I commend him.

[Mobius]

Let's keep personal offenses out of this thread (well, let's keep them out of HLP), ok?

Offending the person you're discussing with means that you don't have anything to base your assumptions on and instead prefer to use personal offenses to keep the discussing running. Show TrashMan that you're not going to do that.

[colecampbell666]

No, it means that he doesn't understand reason and his arguments are flawed/contradicting, and there's no point arguing.

[General Battuta]

I have to agree. He's unintentionally hilarious -- he throws out nonsensical arguments and then ridicules other, better-constructed reasoning. Because he's not aware of the flaws in his own reasoning, he's convinced everyone else is a nut.

He's not a bad guy, but I don't think we're going to get very far with him.

[Mobius]

No, it means that he doesn't understand reason and his arguments are flawed/contradicting, and there's no point arguing.

Yet still, personal offenses coming from either side aren't a good thing.

I have to agree. He's unintentionally hilarious -- he throws out nonsensical arguments and then ridicules other, better-constructed reasoning. Because he's not aware of the flaws in his own reasoning, he's convinced everyone else is a nut.

He's not a bad guy, but I don't think we're going to get very far with him.

One of the basic things people joining religion-related debates should know is that religious people think in a different way.

[iamzack]

It wasn't really meant to be a personal attack.

I really am just astounded by his doublethink.

[General Battuta]

No, it means that he doesn't understand reason and his arguments are flawed/contradicting, and there's no point arguing.

Yet still, personal offenses coming from either side aren't a good thing.

I have to agree. He's unintentionally hilarious -- he throws out nonsensical arguments and then ridicules other, better-constructed reasoning. Because he's not aware of the flaws in his own reasoning, he's convinced everyone else is a nut.

He's not a bad guy, but I don't think we're going to get very far with him.

One of the basic things people joining religion-related debates should know is that religious people think in a different way.

Right, but Trashman isn't doing that.

Goob is a good example of someone who plays by religious logic. I'll never be able to have a debate with him, because he lives in a different world. And y'know what? That's okay. He's a great guy, and his world of faith isn't screwing up my world (he's not in politics, after all)

Trashman is not nearly as logical as Goob.

[Mobius]

Not everything requires logic...

[High Max]

.

[TrashMan]

No, it means that he doesn't understand reason and his arguments are flawed/contradicting, and there's no point arguing.

If you define reason as "being totally ignorant and blind" then no, I don't understand it.

I have to agree. He's unintentionally hilarious -- he throws out nonsensical arguments and then ridicules other, better-constructed reasoning. Because he's not aware of the flaws in his own reasoning, he's convinced everyone else is a nut.

I can say the same thing about you.
There has always been a clash between religious people and religion haters on these forums. Unfortunately for me I'm outnumbered here.

We can agree that you won't convince me and I won't convince you.
You are convinced that you follow reason and your arguments are superior, while I don't have any arguments to speak of.
Well, it goes vice-versa too. I'm just as convinced about my being right as you are about you being right.

I consider your arguments ill-constructed, your reasoning flawed and while I don't consider you "nuts", I certanly consider you blind. Make of that what you will.

Now all you religion-haters give yourself a nice pat on the back and start making fun of me. I would consider doing the same among my own group, but I don't have a habit of demonizing non-believers, and I'm not about to start now.

God bless you all.

[General Battuta]

While your last post makes a valid point about disparate opinions and confirmation bias, it's a bit telling that even the other religious folks don't want to be associated with you.

But I can agree that we're not likely to get anywhere, so let's go do something with Freespace instead.

[Mobius]

But I can agree that we're not likely to get anywhere, so let's go do something with Freespace instead.

I guess we'd start telling people that it's FreeSpace, not Freespace...