Author Topic: Freespace 3: The Shivans  (Read 29731 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dragonsniper

  • 29
  • Master of the Irrelevant
    • Steam
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
"Pilots, we have the Shivan's master plan. The Shivans want to mine gas that's why they blew up Capella"
:lol:
Do or do not, there is no try...
~HLP Member and Modder~
          ~~2008-201x~~

 
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Okay so a lot of what i'm getting is that the aura of mystery is what keeps the shivans as awesome as they are. What if... now bear with me here, What if... there was a way to keep them mysterious despite building a story around them? Answer questions that are asked, small questions within the briefings but keep them sufficiently shrouded in mystery! Granted this is an extremely difficult task but i expect no less from FS3. The idea behind it is that with a sufficient creative team, it is possible to make a shivan campaign that is both awesome and not only expands the shivan mythos but also keeps them a wildcard.

Meeeeh.

TBH, I used to like the idea of a Shivan campaign until I played Tides of Darkness.

Well the idea behind this campaign is that you're hunting a wounded animal. The GTVA is crippled and now that the shivans smell blood(metaphorically) They go in for the kill. Doesn't anyone else enjoy abusing those that are weaker and less able than them?  :drevil: This is assuming that the shivans want to destroy the GTVA and that they have no ulterior motive.

well... and then how the shivans get around those collapsed nodes? oh ****!

I'm assuming that there are more shivans out there than just the ones trapped in the node. I take this from the multiple shivan incursions. The lucifer fleet was first, after they were destroyed the sathanas fleet. Not the mention the fact that multiple sathanas had warped out prior to the nodes being destroyed. Personally, i'm of the opinion that they're still out there. Its only a matter of motive before they strike.

It would be more fun to learn more about the Shivans and FS3 was probably about that and fighting ships the size of planets or something and using ETAK to communicate with the Shivans. If Volition made FS3, we would probably learn more about the Shivans, the Earth would be reunited with the GTVA and help fight the Shivans, etc. I was hearing long ago that if they made FS3, it would conclude the FS series and we would know all or something like that.


My idea is exactly that! If FS3 would conclude the series, but personally i felt that if the GTVA reunited with earth, it would be way too generic an ending. We reunite with earth, and magically find a way to defeat an enemy who is technologic pally superior to ours. I think if it ended like that, i would be extremely disappointed because it was so unoriginal! I would be more interested if we changed perspectives and hunted down the GTVA and destroyed them planet by planet. Maybe even a planet destroying minigame?  :warp:



 

Offline dragonsniper

  • 29
  • Master of the Irrelevant
    • Steam
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
If the creator of FS3 was able to keep the Shivans in secret, then great! If only minor things were explained, then great again! However, I'm not sure that you could keep all the big secrets out while playing as the Shivans. BTW, love the idea of a planet destroying minigame. :drevil:
Do or do not, there is no try...
~HLP Member and Modder~
          ~~2008-201x~~

 
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
i strongly believe in the power of game design as put forth by Kojima. If MGS4 can be as godly as it is, then so can freespace!

 

Offline dragonsniper

  • 29
  • Master of the Irrelevant
    • Steam
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
If the same amount of time and effort is put into it, then yes it can be.
Do or do not, there is no try...
~HLP Member and Modder~
          ~~2008-201x~~

 
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
FSX should about earth's struggle to save the GTVA survivors from the GTVA systems, where a huge interstellar war is occuring between a bunch of species, and the Shivans actually are running interference for humans, vasudans, and a bunch of smaller empires that would be annihilated by the bigger empires for resources.

At the time of the great war, the Shivans saw that the Humans and Vasudans were not only fighting each other, but expanding their empires. The shivans attacked to prevent us from killing off the little empires all around us, because they thought we were about to become another contender in this huge war. When we exceeded their expectations and allied, they decided to let us live for the time being.

As the NTF war went on, one of the fighting species decided to cash in on some really old records, and gather resources from the GTVA systems. They tried to get there by way of the nebula. The Shivans tried to stop them, not caring too much about killing us because we were again fighting, and us killing them because they felt upset over attacking in the first place, and so we would attack them if we found them again. This 4th species is the cause of all the mysterious occurances in the nebula.
Sig nuked! New one coming soon!

 

Offline Droid803

  • Trusted poster of legit stuff
  • 213
  • /人 ◕ ‿‿ ◕ 人\ Do you want to be a Magical Girl?
    • Skype
    • Steam
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
It could be explained in a cryptic way at least, but saying it up front, like "Pilots, we have the Shivan's master plan. The Shivans want to mine gas that's why they blew up Capella lol"

Well, that wasn't exactly how I presented it. But yes, I admit that was a shortcoming of ToD. The Shivan theory behind it was weak. On hindsight, I should have changed that, but oh well.
(´・ω・`)
=============================================================

 

Offline ThesaurusRex

  • 25
  • What good would that do? I need a drink.
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Shivan origin arguments are ridiculous, everyone knows that the Shivans came from a "Bizzaro" universe where they are getting owned by the PVTN (GTVA equivalent). It's a certified fact!

I was joking in case anyone didn't notice.
My application asked me for 1000 words so I just drew them a picture.

 

Offline wistler

  • 28
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
I think if they made a you-know-what 3 the Shivans would have to be more then a UBER BAD GUYZZ but if the mystery was lost then a big chunk of the soul of FS would be lost. It's a tight rope to walk but i think it could be done.

Maybe somethink like the Shivans emerge again and the GTVA goes to war against them but takes the war to Shivan space. There they find something that threatens the Shivans (don't know what) that they alone cannot overcome. Using ETAK the GTVA realises that they must help save the Shivans from this thing that is a risk to everyone. You'd have a rebellion of servicemen who disagree (they'd be your HOL of NTF of the 3rd game) but at the end the GTVA would be triumphant. The Shivans would survive there plight and carry on the fight against this thing that threatens everyone and in return leave the GTVA alone. This would give a "victory" ending, the GTVA would be safe from the Shivans for a time.

Somethings like that but less rubbish.

 

Offline ThesaurusRex

  • 25
  • What good would that do? I need a drink.
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
I though about making some kind of freespace continuation in which the shivans return for one last time and defeat the GTVA causing all Terrans and Vasudans to flee into another galaxy. Exiles in the very end...a temporary plug until the next installment.
My application asked me for 1000 words so I just drew them a picture.

 

Offline Mikes

  • 29
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
So heres my idea  for what might happen in FS3, Seeing at the end of FS2 with the Death of Alpha one, the GTVA is totally screwed. Not to mention the royal asshanding that just got delivered to them, its only a matter of time before the shivans attack and finish them off. So, what if in FS3 what happens is that we play the role of the Shivans instead of the GTVA? With all the mystery surrounding the shivans and their motives, this could be the wrapping up of loose ends for freespace. This would tell their side of the story, explain their motives, etc.

Discuss!

No. That would be an absolutely horrible idea.

Why? Because of what the Shivans are from an artistic point of view.
The Shivans are menacing for the very reason that we are unable to relate to them, that there is no common ground, that their motives are incomprehensible, that we do not even know whether their form of "thinking" and reasoning is even remotely comparable to ours. They aren't like the Shadows and their ulterior motives in Babylon 5 and they are certainly nothing like a traditional/typical "villain" race like the Kilrathi were... no the Shivans are almost like a natural force that devastates anything it's path. Like a Tsunami, you may survive the wave, but you will always wonder when it will be back. And yes... reasoning with the Shivans is a notion about as silly as trying to stop a Tsunami with diplomacy.

Volition created a foe that gives no quarter and shares none of our moral values... we do not even know wether they treasure life (although one could guess they don't from their behavior, or wonder whether they even share a concept of perceiving "life" as we do.) or wether they treasure anything at all. Heck... you don't even know whether they reason at all and pondering their reasons is about as futile as pondering the reasons of a virus that is killing you. To the ancients they appeared as the universe embodied taking revenge on them. To the fledgling, yet overconfident human civilization they showed how dangerous the cosmos they were just starting to explore really was. It's like a kid looking under their bed and finding out that there really are monsters. And what scarier monster is there than the scariest thing you can imagine ? And that is why the Shivans work so well... because their motives are incomprehensible, because so much is unknown about them... because so much is left up for imagination. We know they want to kill us, but we don't even know "why".

Now... from an artistic point of view... answering the question of the "why" would be pretty much the most counterproductive thing you could do.

That would be the quickest and most effective way i could imagine to utterly ruin the phantastic atmosphere that Volition managed to create in FS1 and FS2.
Spoiler:
(And yeah, this is also my major complaint i have with Blue Planet: Age of Aquarius. As much as i enjoyed most of the campaign, i'm trying really hard to forget that the last mission (or rather the last real combat mission before the actual concluding "epilogue" style mission) ever happened, or that due to being in an alternate reality things were simply totally unrelated to the "real FS universe". Talking Shivans really are about the most ridiculous and silly thing i ever saw in the genre...  that's pretty much like pe*ing all over FS atmosphere and then setting it on fire LOL. I'm also really really really glad that the second chapter of Blue Planet appears to feature no Shivans... and am hoping we'll never see any more Shivans in any future Blue Planet Project either... certainly not talking ones that discuss their motives then get sent off like a naughty schoolgirl by the real rulers of the galaxy GAH i mean for christs sake, it was almost like the Shivan Leader was "pouting" as it jumped .... Awww poor Shivan! can't bully the younger races anymore because mommy told not to! /sputters  Now opinions may vary... but from my perspective that sequence was just horrible ;) Not to dis Blue Planet though, as i said, the rest of the campaign and especially gameplay, was quite awesome.

Anyways... that would be my 2 cents ;)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 07:07:33 pm by Mikes »

 
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
You made a great point. However, the entire point of creating a shivan campaign is not to explain their origins, and even explain them entirely. The idea is to expand their mystery by offering you a piece of the puzzle. This idea is shown in the TV show "Lost". Although i am not a fan of the show, they know how to entrap their viewers. What they do is to give you a small piece of the pie. Once you taste the pie, you realize what an amazing Pie it is. You really really want that delicious pie. But by no means do you ever give them the entire pie! I don't believe that volition should completely reveal everything about the shivans and what their purpose is. I suggest that they bait us, and make us more engrossed into their story than we already are.

There are ways of delivering a campaign in which nothing is revealed about the protagonists. This is done well in Bioshock, where you know nothing about the protagonist except that he crashlanded onto a remote island somehow from somewhere. This is completely possible within the Freespace universe. If the game design is done well, then there is a possibility of innovation within a medium.

So what this campaign is not meant to answer Why, but rather to experience a new perspective. In the end, what i imagine this campaign to be is that it would still be about the GTVA. Instead of being about their struggle, its about their slow but eventual collapse. You will play as the shivans, but in the end nothing important would be revealed about the shivans, but merely that they are the destroyers. Much like using your metaphor of the Tsunami, you can observe a Tsunami, and not understand it. But still know that in the end, the Tsunami will destroy everything and anything that stands in its path.

 
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
You know Lost's creator is gone, right? The writers have no bloody clue what they're doing.
Sig nuked! New one coming soon!

 

Offline Mikes

  • 29
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
So what this campaign is not meant to answer Why, but rather to experience a new perspective. In the end, what i imagine this campaign to be is that it would still be about the GTVA. Instead of being about their struggle, its about their slow but eventual collapse. You will play as the shivans, but in the end nothing important would be revealed about the shivans, but merely that they are the destroyers. Much like using your metaphor of the Tsunami, you can observe a Tsunami, and not understand it. But still know that in the end, the Tsunami will destroy everything and anything that stands in its path.

Sadly i'm not convinced. While you make it sound quite easy... it would fall apart at the seams the moment you offer mission briefings... wingman commands... new orders/mission directives in flight from your "Shivan Boss" ;)......... of course you could do without any of that... but then you would end up limiting yourself gameplaywise way too much. I'm not convinced that it would be a good idea.... 1st, because it just might compromise the atmosphere that V has created with the Shivans anyways, despite you "trying" not to... and 2nd, because "trying not to" compromise that atmosphere, would instead end up compromising the atmosphere, gameplay and feel of the campaign that you are actually creating.

As far as campaign concepts go it certainly isn't something that has me excited and most likely it would end up being something that i would hate with a passion lol.

Again, that's just my opinion and anyone is free to disagree. Fan fiction/usermade content doesn't have to appeal to "everyone".
You would have to realize however that such a project would automatically be pretty much the definition of "non-canon" or even "anti-canon".

From my perspective, while i might agree that you can offer more hints or suggestions on what the Shivans "might" or "might" not be in a campaign and not compromise what they are from an artistic point of view...  a campaign where you play "from the Shivans perspective" strikes me as a very very bad way to do that. "Playing from their perspective" suggests that they actually have a perspective that is close enough to ours that you could assume that perspective... heck even assuming that they have individual minds comparable to ours, who each pilot an individual fighter is already going quite far. Showing that they are planning missions and hitting targets according to some kind of "logic" that we actually can understand would be going way too far. Simply showing that they are capable of differentiating victory from defeat, even just hinting at that they got a concept of victory and defeat would already turn them into something quite different than what they are in FS1/FS2. Going back to the natural force/Tsunami analogy... how do you "play" from the perspective of a Tsunami without turning it into something that it really isn't? My answer would be: "You don't - not if you don't want to make a quite silly game on purpouse anyways."

As said before Shivans aren't like the Shadows from B5 or the Cylons from BSG and especially not like the straightforward Kilrathi from Wing Commander. It would be quite easy to play as the Kilrathi without compromising atmosphere... because the Kilrathi are quite understandable from our perspective, matter of fact, they are pretty much just the depiction of a warrior centric bloodthirsty human society ...  the B5 shadows reveal very human motivation mixed with a radical ideology...  again, something very comprehendable... and the Cylons... well, one could argue the whole point of the show is how the Cylons are trying to comprehend and become more like humans and on a biological level they already are so ... ;) ....

The Shivans on the other hand... were designed by Volition as something else entirely... if anything, they are everything humans are not, they embody what humans can not understand, they are the anti-life to any life that meets them, by their nature, they also happen to be the preservers of the younger races... but that is not what they necessarily are... that is what the Ancients called them from their perspective . Whether the Shivans actually "preserve" or whether they simply "happen to preserve" by coincidence because anything not entering subspace isn't even noticable or significant to them is entirely open to speculation, the later seems more likely i would say....  just because the Ancients realized that the Shivans were "preserving" other races by wiping them out, doesn't mean that the Shivans function is to "preserve"... it doesn't even necessarily mean that the Shivans have any kind of greater function other than just being what they are.

By the same logic that "makes" the Shivans also the "great preservers" you could call a Virus that wiped out humanity the "great preserver of earth's environment and other species". The Shivans are what they are and do what they do - and not being able to know why or even whether they have a motivation, intention with their behavior or a perspective that you could assume, is a huge part of what makes them what they are artistically.

Volition was very careful never to give the Shivans a perspective. Pretty much anyhing we know about them is told (or experienced) from someone elses point of view: The Ancients, the Vasudans or the Terrans.
And again... from an artistic point of view there is a very good reason why this was done... and the moment you ignore that reason you are turning them into something quite different than what they were in FS1/FS2.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 08:40:49 pm by Mikes »

 

Offline High Max

  • Permanently banned
  • 29
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
/
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 05:11:18 pm by High Max »
;-)   #.#   *_*   ^^   ^-^   ^_^

 

Offline Mikes

  • 29
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
I just would like to point out... that i am kinda wondering how people "assume" that the Shivans have motivations.... or "assume" that we would take the fight to them, or "assume" that we could even remotely hold our own against the power they have (or rather the power that wasn't revealed yet)... you guys pretty much sound to me like the guys who built the colossus after the great war "to never have to fear the Shivans again" LOL :)

... for all we know... Freespace 3 could have ended with the last survivors of humanity (maybe together with Vasudan survivors;)) boarding a sub-light sleeper ship trying to sneak away into deep space to find a planet to settle on in peace and never touch subspace again.

Considering how the last two games went... and considering how Volition tended to make points against overconfidence and hubris in their storytelling... it at least seems much more likely that Freespace 3, if there had ever been one, would have ended quite badly for humanity. Personally... i would be pretty convinced... that if Volition ever let us "explore" Shivan space, it would very very very likely have been just as a prelude to discovering just how screwed we really are, followed by a few epic desperate battles and an ending where the few survivors - if there were any - were glad that they aren't dead as well. .... heh i can almost hear the melancholic voice of the epilogue concluding how their only hope would be that by never using subspace again they had finally escaped the Great Destroyers ;)

An ending along these lines would at least be somewhat in the "spirit" of the earlier games.

Some kind of "lets understand more about the Shivans and kick their butts like any other game villain" kinda ending however would be pretty much anti-Freespace in my opinion lol.
I can't emphasize that point enough... and tell me you don't agree with me on some level when i say that it's very likely that the only thing we would have found out in Freespace 3 is how screwed WE really are ;)

If you simply take it as a fact that they are an "old" race that has existed even before the ancients and then extrapolate based on what "old races" are supposed to have as capabilities based on other science fiction works.... then Shivan core systems would pretty much have to be at least contained in some kind of Dyson Sphere construction that, in line with their nature, would be bristling with enough weaponry to vaprorize anything that the GTVA could field against them in the next 5000 years or so in the blink of an eye. We already know they can cause a supernova and in FS3 you would likely have at least seen ships that dwarf the satanas and likely "depending on PC hardware of the time lol" moon-sized planet/sun killers putting starwars deathstar to shame as well. Alternatively there might have been swarms of millions of sathanas... but as game design goes, the "one huge ass scary ship" theory seems more likely and would have been more impressive as well.

Looking at Shivans... their ships were pretty much as big and scary as Volition could make em with the PC hardware of the time. lol ;)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 10:18:47 pm by Mikes »

 

Offline Aardwolf

  • 211
  • Posts: 16,384
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
I can't see any way the Shivans could not "have motivations". Even if they're robots, they'd be programmed to accomplish some goal, or to seek some sensation, etc. They're not like, say, a black hole, which is an unthinking but still potentially dangerous object.

 

Offline ThesaurusRex

  • 25
  • What good would that do? I need a drink.
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
... for all we know... Freespace 3 could have ended with the last survivors of humanity (maybe together with Vasudan survivors;)) boarding a sub-light sleeper ship trying to sneak away into deep space to find a planet to settle on in peace and never touch subspace again.
...didn't I just say that?
I though about making some kind of freespace continuation in which the shivans return for one last time and defeat the GTVA causing all Terrans and Vasudans to flee into another galaxy. Exiles in the very end...a temporary plug until the next installment.
My application asked me for 1000 words so I just drew them a picture.

  

Offline Mikes

  • 29
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
I can't see any way the Shivans could not "have motivations". Even if they're robots, they'd be programmed to accomplish some goal, or to seek some sensation, etc. They're not like, say, a black hole, which is an unthinking but still potentially dangerous object.

You are thinking too much in human terms. Humans have motivations... that doesn't mean everything else must "function" like us. We have a certain way of perceiving the world and by our own nature we are limited in the ways we can perceive the world. That doesn't mean the world, universe or its inhabitants are limited in the same way.

Matter of fact, I'm writing a horribly boring paper right now and have to contend with Luhmanns general systems theory. It actually relates to the issue however. One of the statements you will find when exploring Luhmann is that "psychological systems" (i.e. that would be you and me) as systems who operate with "meaning" as a medium are by their nature unable to understand systems that do not. You can label such systems, give them names, but understand them ? Nope. Because operating the way we do is what makes us what we are and how we perceive everything around us.....  who said everything else had to be like us again ? Who says the Shivans even have a "psyche" as we understand it ?  ;) The Ancients speculated they came from subspace... so we can't even guess whether they "evolved" in our universe... they could as well be the product of "devolution" of higher/more complex beings from another universe, that had nothing in common with our own, or something else entirely.

A Virus could wipe out humanity. Does it have to have a motivation ? A virus is designed to do what it does, but does it "have to" reflect on what it is and does and consciously set itself goals ?;) It IS... it can be very dangerous to you, but so can matter of fact be a lot of things on this world or this universe. Humans "need" meaning......  crave "meaning".... "want meaning"... and yes that is why we like or prefer to see meaning even if there isn't or even if we can't see it.... when we don't see it... we want to believe in it: Enter Religion. (Not arguing about religion, after all its just as possible that there is meaning even when we can't see it...  enter: belief).
Arguing the Shivans "need" to have motivations is going down a similar slope like stating that "everything needs to have meaning in life". Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't; The whole point, or rather the very definition of "belief" is that you don't have proof and the whole point of the of the Shivans as an artistic device is that you do not know.

Rationalized: The Shivans are an old race - that much is certain. There is no telling if they always were what they were or if they evolved from something different. There is no telling if they evolved or were created.
Do we even know what we ourselves would be like in say, a million years ? (assuming we still exist). Would we still have our own bodies or would we have constructed something else, or modified what we are ?
How can we even begin to speculate what our thinking would be like, considering the whole basis of our biology could have been changed. (Heck, a neandertal would already have a hard time understanding us :p)

The whole point however is... that from an artistic point of view "not knowing and speculating" is an integral part of what the Shivans are.
The moment you put them into a box... any kind of box, giving them motivations would be just one option,... they lose that essential quality that makes the whole concept of them so great,
(Kinda how the concept of religion would suddenly become a whole lot less mystical if you actually knew with certainty if there was a higher power or not and what its motivation was - making belief was redundant)

Or in other words: The Shivans concept is very close to that of an unopened present. (except of course that a present is something positive while the Shivans would represent the opposite of the emotional spectrum). Unopened presents are tantalizing us with possibilities. The very nature of it is that we want to know what is inside. By opening it however, you turn it into something entirely else: An opened present. Uncertainity transformed into certainty. The very reason that you want to open the box so much, is the same reason that it needs to be closed from an artistic point of view. Again, the very "point" of the Shivans is not knowing, yet wondering. Understand it, appreciate it. It's what made Freespace have such a great atmosphere. In another metaphor: If you start to unravel every thread you come across... you will just end up tearing a wonderful fabric apart. Sometimes, the only sensible course of action is not to and rather appreciate what is there.

Trying to discover every mystery is beneficial in the real world.... trying to do the same thing in a work of fiction can be quite harmful.
In the case of the Shivans it would simply be missing the whole point of what Volition created and why it worked so well.

... for all we know... Freespace 3 could have ended with the last survivors of humanity (maybe together with Vasudan survivors;)) boarding a sub-light sleeper ship trying to sneak away into deep space to find a planet to settle on in peace and never touch subspace again.
...didn't I just say that?
I though about making some kind of freespace continuation in which the shivans return for one last time and defeat the GTVA causing all Terrans and Vasudans to flee into another galaxy. Exiles in the very end...a temporary plug until the next installment.

Yup you did. My apology.

Except that i would see it not just as a "temporary plug" but rather as a quite possible final end of a trilogy that would actually make some sense in light of the previous games.
As a third campaign from GTVAs point of view it would also leave the Shivans mystery intact and not ruin the original atmosphere of the FS series and would have given Volition the opportunity to really redefine the ways that hubris and overconfidence can be squashed with a final epic "point". ;)

Q.E.D. or whatever lol. :p
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 10:07:10 pm by Mikes »

 
Re: Freespace 3: The Shivans
Some kind of "lets understand more about the Shivans and kick their butts like any other game villain" kinda ending however would be pretty much anti-Freespace in my opinion lol.
I can't emphasize that point enough... and tell me you don't agree with me on some level when i say that it's very likely that the only thing we would have found out in Freespace 3 is how screwed WE really are ;)

I think we're both on the same page here as far as the story goes. One of my points was that i intended for the shivans to pretty much destroy the GTVA and as far as that goes, i think we re both agreed.


There are ways of delivering a campaign in which nothing is revealed about the protagonists.


What's the fun of a story if you can't learn about your enemy? Also, the Alliance can't destroy their enemy if they don't learn all they can about it.

Hm, i think maybe you misunderstood my quote there. Protaganist is the main charactor of a story, whereas Antagonist is the "Enemy" of the story. And thats pretty much what people love so much about the Shivans is that we dont know jack**** about them. As far as not destroying them goes, Well the native americans pretty much got wiped out at the time without our knowing anything about them. So it is possible to destroy a culture/civilization without knowing anything about them. But if you're talking about technologywise, well at this point i don't see how it would be possible to win this "war" unless there was some sort of deus ex machina ending thrown in there. Based on the information we have, the shivans can pretty much crush the GTVA at whatever point and time they choose.


Sadly i'm not convinced. While you make it sound quite easy... it would fall apart at the seams the moment you offer mission briefings... wingman commands... new orders/mission directives in flight from your "Shivan Boss" ;)......... of course you could do without any of that... but then you would end up limiting yourself gameplaywise way too much. I'm not convinced that it would be a good idea.... 1st, because it just might compromise the atmosphere that V has created with the Shivans anyways, despite you "trying" not to... and 2nd, because "trying not to" compromise that atmosphere, would instead end up compromising the atmosphere, gameplay and feel of the campaign that you are actually creating.


If i made it sound easy, i apologize. Its a fault of my writing. It is not easy, in fact its quite hard. It wouldn't be easy, it would require changing much of how freespace works. For example, who says there needs to be mission briefings? or orders from the "Boss" or even objectives? I'm not talking about usermade campaigns off of FSO, What i wanted to discuss was FS3. A completely new game! Those pieces of the game, while important are not completely necessary. Since the Shivans are a race that is alien to us, who says any of that exists in their perspective? With a new game, sometimes sacrifices need to be made in order to further a medium. And Innovations. But i keep using those words. If the creative team behind FS3 feels that those no longer fit into Fs3. then they won't be there. As you said, we cannot understand the shivans if the artistic perspective is to be kept, so how can we have a game using the shivans without understanding them? That is up to game design. And it won't be an easy process, at least not for the people making the game. Its easy for me to say this because i have nothing to do with it so far. Not ruling out any possibilities   :nervous:

What i'm basically trying to say is that although it might be difficult, it is possible to make a game with the shivans as the protagonists without compromising their artistic integrity. And despite the whole artistic value of having the shivans remain unknown, i still want to know.  :mad: