[Blue Lion]

A home made bomb can look like anything. Learning how to make a bomb is pretty simple as well. Heck, even taking an introductory chemistry class will teach you the basics of "blow-up-ology."

I don't know what his device looked like (though I'd like a look at it...), but I really get the feeling this was really, really overblown. As in ragingly stupid on the part of the VP. I'm saying this as I've had (a.) personal experience with stupid school admin decisions and (b.) heard/seen evidence of similarly stupid judgements (Remember the little girl with the empty shotgun shell? Yeah...). This may in part be due to bull-headedness in terms of discipline/control of the students, which is also potentially a massive problem. Common sense goes a long way. As we weren't there to hear what went on between the VP and the student, we can't truly judge the logic of the VP. However, I'm pretty certain the logic of the VP was very much lacking...

Can I point out how you say that a bomb can look like anything, and then, without seeing what it really looked like, decided the person overreacted? What if it really did look like a bomb?

How can you say any item can be a bomb and then lay into a person because they thought an item looked like a bomb?

[Blue Lion]

And he says it's a quantum jigglyboop designed to find neutrons in pickles.

That's a cute way of saying "What if he lies to me?"

He could have a steel pipe bomb with a little detonator on it and say "It's a barometer, the cylinder has a set pressure inside and this device reads the outside pressure" and I wouldn't be able to contradict him because I don't know.

I doubt the kid who made an explosive device is gonna go "Oh, it's a bomb, I was coming in to kill you all but you caught me. Here's how you turn it off. Let's go see the cops."

This is paranoia.

If he lies to you, then you're ****ed. Bomb goes off, people die. But the fact that you even consider that worth considering to a degree that will create trouble indicates that you are not aware of how incredibly rare this is.

Not once in history has a child of this age brought a bomb into school with the intention of detonating it and carried it around in public gleefully showing it off.

This hypothetical 'kid who made an explosive device' is less likely to exist than a spontaneous grand mal seizure on the kid's part. Are you prepared for that outcome?

Absolutely, you know why? I don't blow up in either one.  And neither will any of the children who are in my care. My chances of blowing up only go down.

And as for having a seizure, as you've stated, he could have a seizure if I ask him if he brought his homework.

To use the wonderful line of thinking, if I have to pick between embarrassed kid and me maybe getting blown up, guess which I pick? Me living. That's the great part. I'm sure all school handbooks says "don't bring a bomb like device into school" and believe me, it isn't the kid or an engineer who gets to determine what is and isn't bomb like.

Just like they don't bring in weapons experts to determine if the thing the kid brings in looks like a gun.

I still notice you won't tell me what is and is not a bomb or even how often this happens.

If you walked into a bank or a government building and said "hey guys it's just a motion detector I'm gonna show my friend". How long do you think it'll take the teller to press the button? And that's just a building full of money, imagine a building full of kids.

[General Battuta]

You can tell it's not a bomb because the student is holding it and showing it to his friends in a technical school where students are encouraged to make things.

It should take 30 seconds to verify that it's not a bomb.

It should take another 30 to give the kid some extra credit for his awesome motion detector.

The fact that the school even worries about being bombed is just unjustifiable. School bombings are incredibly rare. Far more rare than many other types of violent crime that could happen on school grounds.

The problem is you're starting from the assumption that this is a bomb because you think that's the one you should start from because, well, it does the most harm, it could blow you up. But it's probably more likely that a given student in the hall has a gun in his pants than it is that that piece of electronics is a bomb.

Why aren't you patting down the students and searching their cars?

[Thaeris]

And he says it's a quantum jigglyboop designed to find neutrons in pickles.

That's a cute way of saying "What if he lies to me?"

He could have a steel pipe bomb with a little detonator on it and say "It's a barometer, the cylinder has a set pressure inside and this device reads the outside pressure" and I wouldn't be able to contradict him because I don't know.

I doubt the kid who made an explosive device is gonna go "Oh, it's a bomb, I was coming in to kill you all but you caught me. Here's how you turn it off. Let's go see the cops."

 

These weren't even high school kids. Unless you're dealing with Satan incarnate, I really doubt you're going to have a little kid toting something like that around. As per your description, the device you described looked nothing like the one in the actual events. A pipe bomb is a pipe. A reactive material is found inside. The pipe about the reative material is not only casing but becomes shrapnel... Yeah. Nasty.

You'll note this also lookes like a bomb. You'll also note that although a bomb has wires (if it has a more sophisticated detonator), it also needs a charge. A plastic Gatorade bottle with wires in it does not have too many ways of hurting the general populace in the area... unless you beat them with it. Caution is good, but as I was saying, this got WAY out of hand.

A home made bomb can look like anything. Learning how to make a bomb is pretty simple as well. Heck, even taking an introductory chemistry class will teach you the basics of "blow-up-ology."

I don't know what his device looked like (though I'd like a look at it...), but I really get the feeling this was really, really overblown. As in ragingly stupid on the part of the VP. I'm saying this as I've had (a.) personal experience with stupid school admin decisions and (b.) heard/seen evidence of similarly stupid judgements (Remember the little girl with the empty shotgun shell? Yeah...). This may in part be due to bull-headedness in terms of discipline/control of the students, which is also potentially a massive problem. Common sense goes a long way. As we weren't there to hear what went on between the VP and the student, we can't truly judge the logic of the VP. However, I'm pretty certain the logic of the VP was very much lacking...

Can I point out how you say that a bomb can look like anything, and then, without seeing what it really looked like, decided the person overreacted? What if it really did look like a bomb?

How can you say any item can be a bomb and then lay into a person because they thought an item looked like a bomb?

To our friends at the Bureau, a very warm welcome.  

Well, welcome to Advanced Terrorism/Spycraft 101. This is not a class for grade school students. OHHHKAY, how do you get a bomb somewhere it shouldn't be? You put it in your shoes or some other crafty place that isn't conspicuous. Or make it out of a material that isn't conspicuous while being hidden in a crafty place. This is how spies and the baddies have been doing it since... long before you were ever born. This is very technical, involves a great knowledge of chemistry, and all manner of other things like so. It also involves tact. You don't show everybody that graphing calculator... that doesn't actually have batteries in the back. But then you weren't dealing with the devil child here, he has no motivation to do such a thing. To make a potent weapon out of such a small space also requires a hefty explosive which your common happy school child doesn't carry. And if that's the case, you might as well do a chemical analysis of EVERYTHING everyone has in the entire building. That's what I mean when a home made weapon can be made to look like anything. The desire to do that, however, is above and beyond most everyone - your elementary school student will concievably not do this.

I'm going to stop this before our good friends at the FBI think I'm some sort of dissident who must be warranted and searched. This ludicrous sentiment that everyone is suspect is over the long term quite harmful to the health of communities and nations. We're picking at the VP as no common sense was there: the student showed no signs of being dangerous, he did not act as a dangerous person would act (you know, sneaky/tactful), and upon questioning the student (if the VP did it at all - when he/she should have), the VP still showed no real competance. Councelling? The only reason the kid and the family might need councelling is for any distress caused by this "charlie-foxtrot." Anything else is unjust...

[Scotty]

Seriously BL, stop looking at it from the viewpoint of "I don't know what that is.  I'll assume it's a bomb first," and try looking at it from the viewpoint of "this school promotes building technology.  This student built a piece of technology.  The likelihood that's a bomb isn't even worth considering."

[General Battuta]

I agree.

These are kids. They are not foreign combatants. The degree of suspicion required to see a bomb here, of all places, is just extraordinary.

The students are not the enemy.

[Kosh]

So what's the alternative? How do untrained people tell what is and is not a real bomb?

Play the odds.

I am not disagreeing with this point, so I'm kinda confused as to why people keep bringing it up. Yes, the odds of a student bringing a bomb into a school are amazingly low. But teachers are other people don't get to make the call on if it's the real one. You're right, not calling the cops means all those false alarms never happen but it means the few times it IS a bomb, nothing happens. Because they can't tell the difference.

People keep bringing it up to show how astoundingly illogical an action like that is. 

Because he was trained in a culture of fear, distrust, and harmful paranoia.

Or it was just ass-covering.

[Blue Lion]

You can tell it's not a bomb because the student is holding it and showing it to his friends in a technical school where students are encouraged to make things.

It should take 30 seconds to verify that it's not a bomb.

It should take another 30 to give the kid some extra credit for his awesome motion detector.

As I've said, I couldn't tell you if it was a bomb or not. Even bomb squads can't tell if items are bombs or not just by looking at it for a few seconds. Why do you think they come in with heavy suits and robots and shoot water cannons at them? Do you think these guys get paid by the bomb?

And you want a guy who went to school for 4 years, most of which were teaching and gen ed classes, is going to be able to tell what is and isn't a bomb in a few moments even though it takes bomb squads a lot longer?

The fact that the school even worries about being bombed is just unjustifiable. School bombings are incredibly rare. Far more rare than many other types of violent crime that could happen on school grounds.

And here is where the question comes in that you won't really. If you can make a bomb look like anything, why are people who aren't trained to make the decision just ignore their own feelings and just let it go because the odds are so amazingly low?

I'm just amazed that people are painting people as jittery panicky people who run around at the slightest noise are the last line of defense in school bombings. An event that has happened in the past and will happen in the future. Don't bother calling the police, let these people decide, they'll know which are the real bombs.

Either teachers and faculty can call in the cops or they can't.

I'd like to think you would want a teacher to call the cops if they saw say.... 5 sticks of something that looked like dynamite and a timer counting down. You'd want them to call right?

Do you want them to call it in when it's really obvious? When does it stop being really obvious? How does a layperson know what is obviously a bomb?

[Blue Lion]

Seriously BL, stop looking at it from the viewpoint of "I don't know what that is.  I'll assume it's a bomb first," and try looking at it from the viewpoint of "this school promotes building technology.  This student built a piece of technology.  The likelihood that's a bomb isn't even worth considering."

Except if it is a bomb and blows up.

"Did you see it?"

Yea

"Did you think it looked like a bomb?"

Yea

"What did you do?"

Nothing

"Why not?"

I'm not qualified to tell what is and isn't a bomb.

"Did you get anyone who could?"

No

"Why not?"

Didn't want to make a scene.

As for making them foreign combatants. Almost every single school, workplace, building, whatever all have the same policy. If you see something that looks like a bomb, get someone. Go get your boss, someone in charge, a security guard, anyone.

It doesn't say "If you see an item you think is a bomb, remember this, who would bomb you? What are the odds, go back to what you're doing."

"If you see an object that looks like a bomb, ask yourself, am I smart? Do you have a degree in engineering? If no, keep doing what you're doing."

No it's "Does it look like a bomb? Let's go get someone who can tell us."

[Scotty]

"Did you think it looked like a bomb?"

Yea

HERE!  Right here.  You yourself have said that you can't evaluate whether a given device is a bomb or not.  Fact of the matter is, if you don't know what the device is, odds are extremely in favor of it not being a bomb.

Really, you're still looking at it from the "I don't know what it is, so it must be a bomb."  It's a logical fallacy.

[Blue Lion]

So what's the alternative? How do untrained people tell what is and is not a real bomb?

Play the odds.

Ok, that's super easy. If I call the cops, the odds of me being blown up by said device are probably zero. If I don't, it's still really low, but it's probably higher than zero.

How can I be blown up by a device if I run screaming like a girl? The odds for getting blown up actually go up if I don't do anything.

You're saying "take the risk" when the alternative, has no downside for me. Not only am I following school policy, but it actually lowers the chance I'm going to die.

People keep bringing it up to show how astoundingly illogical an action like that is.

How is taking an action that helps ensure my safety and the safety of the children around me illogical? Remember, I think it could be a bomb.

[Blue Lion]

"Did you think it looked like a bomb?"

Yea

HERE!  Right here.  You yourself have said that you can't evaluate whether a given device is a bomb or not.  Fact of the matter is, if you don't know what the device is, odds are extremely in favor of it not being a bomb.

Really, you're still looking at it from the "I don't know what it is, so it must be a bomb."  It's a logical fallacy.

No, I'm saying it looks like a bomb. Not "it looks like nothing I've seen before" or "I don't know what it is"

You could show me the Large Hadron Collider and I wouldn't know what it is, but I wouldn't think its a bomb.

You could show me a cherry picker and I wouldn't know what it is, but I wouldn't think it was a bomb.

There are hundreds, thousands!,of things that you could show me and I would have no idea what they are, but I wouldn't think they were bombs.

If you showed me an object that looked like you could carry and had some kind of enclosure, and wires, and an electrical component. Oh and it's at a place I go to all the time and I've never seen it before and it looks homemade and it has the parts I would normally associate with a homemade bomb like a place to hold the charge and a detonator......

no no I wouldn't tell anyone. It's probably a homemade motion detector.

[General Battuta]

You can tell it's not a bomb because the student is holding it and showing it to his friends in a technical school where students are encouraged to make things.

It should take 30 seconds to verify that it's not a bomb.

It should take another 30 to give the kid some extra credit for his awesome motion detector.

As I've said, I couldn't tell you if it was a bomb or not. Even bomb squads can't tell if items are bombs or not just by looking at it for a few seconds. Why do you think they come in with heavy suits and robots and shoot water cannons at them? Do you think these guys get paid by the bomb?

And you want a guy who went to school for 4 years, most of which were teaching and gen ed classes, is going to be able to tell what is and isn't a bomb in a few moments even though it takes bomb squads a lot longer?

The fact that the school even worries about being bombed is just unjustifiable. School bombings are incredibly rare. Far more rare than many other types of violent crime that could happen on school grounds.

And here is where the question comes in that you won't really. If you can make a bomb look like anything, why are people who aren't trained to make the decision just ignore their own feelings and just let it go because the odds are so amazingly low?

No, I've already answered the question.

The answer is, you walk up to the kid, you ask the kid, you trust the kid's response.

The alternative is to treat the students at your tech schools as potential bombers, when they are far less likely to be school bombers than your coworkers are likely to be sex offenders.

Why are you not monitoring them when they talk to students? They are more likely to be propositioning the students for sex than that device is likely to be a bomb when the student says it is not.

[Thaeris]

So what's the alternative? How do untrained people tell what is and is not a real bomb?

Play the odds.

Ok, that's super easy. If I call the cops, the odds of me being blown up by said device are probably zero. If I don't, it's still really low, but it's probably higher than zero.

How can I be blown up by a device if I run screaming like a girl? The odds for getting blown up actually go up if I don't do anything.

You're saying "take the risk" when the alternative, has no downside for me. Not only am I following school policy, but it actually lowers the chance I'm going to die.

People keep bringing it up to show how astoundingly illogical an action like that is.

How is taking an action that helps ensure my safety and the safety of the children around me illogical? Remember, I think it could be a bomb.

This is circular logic...  

No one here denies the point you're making. However, you've taken common sense out of the equation.

Why do we not support the VP? As you've noted, some of us have been in similar, though not as trying situations. Even after having a discussion in the office with the proctors, even with our parents, we still suffered the punishment or unfair decrees of the said officials. And for what reason? There really wasn't one. Is it a bomb? The VP could have done a much better job finding out before causing such a problem.

We're not condemning the VP's concerns. We're citing the way in which that individual handled the situation was piss-poor. It very possibly negatively affected the student, his parents, and maybe even his friends. It disrupted the area and caused the taxpayers an unnecessary expense.

The only sense in which this can be justified is if that person genuinely thought that was a weapon. Even still, did that person collaborate with the other teachers/admins? Where was the teamwork in deciding what the problem was? A school is not some sort of secure reasearch lab that must be defended from evil spies, etc. Jumping on the slightest hunch without thought is bad leadership. It's good to be wary, but that also entails analyzing and observing the situation. Something about this whole scenario screams out that some sensibility was lost somewhere. Again, very poorly handled.

[Blue Lion]

These weren't even high school kids. Unless you're dealing with Satan incarnate, I really doubt you're going to have a little kid toting something like that around. As per your description, the device you described looked nothing like the one in the actual events. A pipe bomb is a pipe. A reactive material is found inside. The pipe about the reative material is not only casing but becomes shrapnel... Yeah. Nasty.

Two kids, aged 13 and 11 set off the fire alarm and when everyone went outside, they opened fire on them with rifles from the nearby woods. They killed 5 people and wounded 10. They were wearing camo.

Why am I telling you this? Look at the list I posted and look at all the kids who are 11, 12, 13 years old or younger who killed fellow classmates or teachers. And you're telling me this kid who everyone wants to shower with extra credit for making a homemade motion detector couldn't make a bomb?

[General Battuta]

And this is grounds for treating all kids as potential shooters?

There are millions of kids in school right now. Just as there are billions of Muslims out there. School shootings don't make kids dangerous any more than 9/11 made Muslims dangerous.

Now if the kid holding the motion detector has a known history of depression, aggression, isolation, threats, reported dangerous behavior - anything like that - then maybe you can worry.

But otherwise it's innocent until proven guilty.

[Blue Lion]

No, I've already answered the question.

The answer is, you walk up to the kid, you ask the kid, you trust the kid's response.

The alternative is to treat the students at your tech schools as potential bombers, when they are far less likely to be school bombers than your coworkers are likely to be sex offenders.

Why are you not monitoring them when they talk to students? They are more likely to be propositioning the students for sex than that device is likely to be a bomb when the student says it is not.

I was teaching at a school in Dundalk. I was student teaching at the time. One of the students thought it would be hilarious to show me his gun. His handgun. In the time I left the room to tell someone to get the principal (and the cops) he had handed that gun off and I lost where it went because I had to go get someone.

Cops came, searched the kid. No gun.

Where's the gun?
What gun?
The gun you had
I didn't have a gun.

That kid lied right to the face of the police and the principal and everything. Pinned everything on me. I didn't like him. I wanted him out of the class so I made it up. Not one kid said he had a gun.

You know they did? Nothing. I couldn't prove it. No gun, I'm a student teacher.

I got to sit there for 3 months while that kid made little finger gun gestures at me. This was a middle school. He was 12. Twelve.

Could it have been a BB gun? Maybe. You ever been to Dundalk? Ever seen The Wire? Yea it might have been real.

So when you're done telling me to trust the kid I'll tell you the story of the kid who showed me his knife and his pot he was selling.

Kids will lie through their teeth. They will weave such lies on why they don't have their homework, or why the fight was the other kids fault. Ask any parent, kids lie.

So this whole "Don't believe your instincts, you're a paranoid idiot, believe they kid" is crazy to me

[Blue Lion]

And this is grounds for treating all kids as potential shooters?

There are millions of kids in school right now. Just as there are billions of Muslims out there. School shootings don't make kids dangerous any more than 9/11 made Muslims dangerous.

Now if the kid holding the motion detector has a known history of depression, aggression, isolation, threats, reported dangerous behavior - anything like that - then maybe you can worry.

But otherwise it's innocent until proven guilty.

Which is why we don't just grab random kids. Hey that backback could have a bomb! You look funny, where's your gun?!

Hey, that kids black, he must be dealing.

This is a VP who say an item they were sooooo sure could be a bomb, they called the cops.

They make you go through metal detectors and get your luggage xrayd at the airport. Do you make grandma go through the detector? Hell yea. Does the little 4 years old luggage get scanned? Sure does. Is it a pain in the ass and take forever, absolutely.

[Blue Lion]

Why do we not support the VP? As you've noted, some of us have been in similar, though not as trying situations. Even after having a discussion in the office with the proctors, even with our parents, we still suffered the punishment or unfair decrees of the said officials. And for what reason? There really wasn't one. Is it a bomb? The VP could have done a much better job finding out before causing such a problem.

We're not condemning the VP's concerns. We're citing the way in which that individual handled the situation was piss-poor. It very possibly negatively affected the student, his parents, and maybe even his friends. It disrupted the area and caused the taxpayers an unnecessary expense.

How does a person who sees an item they think might be a bomb determine if it's a bomb? You know what I would do? I would find someone who knows what bombs are.

Trust the kid? Kids lie about everything. Smoking, drinking, drugs, sex, where they were last night, how they're doing in class. I lied to my parents like crazy, still do and I'm almost 30.

[General Battuta]

And this is grounds for treating all kids as potential shooters?

There are millions of kids in school right now. Just as there are billions of Muslims out there. School shootings don't make kids dangerous any more than 9/11 made Muslims dangerous.

Now if the kid holding the motion detector has a known history of depression, aggression, isolation, threats, reported dangerous behavior - anything like that - then maybe you can worry.

But otherwise it's innocent until proven guilty.

Which is why we don't just grab random kids. Hey that backback could have a bomb! You look funny, where's your gun?!

Hey, that kids black, he must be dealing.

This is a VP who say an item they were sooooo sure could be a bomb, they called the cops.

They make you go through metal detectors and get your luggage xrayd at the airport. Do you make grandma go through the detector? Hell yea. Does the little 4 years old luggage get scanned? Sure does. Is it a pain in the ass and take forever, absolutely.

Okay, again, they called the cops after much discussion, at which point the arson teams and police talked to the kid, and then after a great deal more discussion brought in a robot, and then after that searched the guy's house.

It was an absurd overreaction rooted in a culture of paranoia.

EDIT: Actually, y'know what, I don't think we're getting anywhere here.

Muggings are common where I go to school; far more common than school bombings are. We walk outside at night quite a lot. Frequently we find ourselves with young black men (generally the muggers) walking behind us. These young men are likely on perfectly innocent business.

The odds that we will be attacked by these men are much higher than the odds that this student's device was a bomb.

We do not call the police for an escort.