Author Topic: BP: War in Heaven discussion  (Read 550500 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Well bear in mind what you've played is basically Empire right up to the point where Luke gets his hand chopped off and falls into a pit.

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
, the Wargods and/or the player never really get a victory the whole campaign long.

How is getting the Agincourt not a victory? It just ends up getting used in operations instead of RnD at Earth. The missions prior to Delenda Est were basically a ALFA OEN WINFEST. You could save any and all ships. Delenda Est did a good job in popping that feeling of making a difference and leaving a withered husk.

"the best laid plans never survive contact with the enemy?"

This applies more to the TeVs, thier plan was based on one person's psych profile. While they were at it they could have double the intel on Steele an find how much he likes bait and switch tactics.

 

Offline Pred the Penguin

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Tev plans seem to work perfectly almost every time, or Steele just has **** loads of contingencies... :mad:

Just to say it...
I actually disobeyed orders my first playthrough of Delenda est and charged head on into the the Imperius.
Needless to say I was plastered by the amount of flak, beams and fighters it had.  :lol:

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Good thing I didn't answer as well, yesterday. I already had an answer half done when I had to abandon ship, so to speak. It was embarrissingly sloppy and full of half-remembered facts compared to Battuta.

I guess why I didn't have a problem at all with "losing" throughout the campaign is mainly, that it is WiH part 1, so as for the dramatic arc it is fitting to end at the moment of highest peril and greatest loss. Maybe part 2 will work better for you, who knows?

But I get where you're coming from, and I think we all just have to accept that your taste and the overall design of the campaign are just different.

Also, Steele's plans do work out so well because when you face it - even with the Indus, Steele is a hardened bastard, and the UEF are a bit naïve. The assassination, the perceived chance for victory, everything laid out perfectly to play with their emotions in a game that needs clear thinking above all.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Not to mention the mole in the UEF. Useful for calibrating your contingencies.

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Well bear in mind what you've played is basically Empire right up to the point where Luke gets his hand chopped off and falls into a pit.

No I understand what you're doing here. You're turning Noemi into a jaded character, a bloodthirsty fanatic who will make even the fanatics of the Fedayeen look like pansies and in part 2 she'll kill loads of Tevs and she'll like it and at the end of her arc she'll either die lost because she needs to die, or she'll find some way to redeem herself and regain that part of herself that is currently dead and buried.

That's cool, and a decent story. But to have everything not go their way, it's too much. It's just overdone. Their own government screws them. Steele screws them. Even fate and circumstance screws them. For example, the Altan Orde sacrificing herself to save the Indus and Yangtzee. One minor victory for the good guys in the face of total defeat. But oh wait, the Yangtzee can't jump out. So she dies. Then the Indus makes a crash jump, but oh wait, she's right by the sun, and crippled, so everyone onboard is dead or dying. Including Simms. Then Noemi tries to make the best of a bad situation and confess her feelings, but Simm dies right before she tells her. And make no mistake people, Simms is dead. Dead like dinner.

And I understand the allusion to Empire, but even Empire had good moments. The Rebels had minor victories, they had good moments here and there. Like I say, I'm not saying it was a bad story, or a bad idea, it was just over done. For example, Leia tells Han she loves him BEFORE he's frozen. In WiH, Noemi is seconds too late with Simms. The elder is seconds too late with Noemi (which btw was so obvious. Transferring a high level official 5 clicks in an escape pod? Yeah she's so going to die).

I don't mind fighting a losing war. Nor do I mind a sad ending. (heck my own campaign had a sad ending). But when their own government, the tevs and even fate and circumstance conspire against them at every turn it's too much. It stopped being believable for me. It was so obviously scripted that I was taken out of the story. There has to be at least a bit of give and take.

How is getting the Agincourt not a victory? It just ends up getting used in operations instead of RnD at Earth.

Because 2nd fleet doesn't get the Agincourt. They score a victory, but a pyrhic one. Their own government shafts them and takes it to use in some research project you never see and that doesn't do anything. And any harm they did to the Tevs is immediately erased when the Vasudans bring in their own ships. They dont' kill Serkr, they don't kill the Hood. This is an 18month war, and ships any ship out for a few "weeks" is inconsequential. From what GB said the Hydra's even in the last mission. The ship they failed to kill come backs to kill them in the end. Basically they did all that for nothing.

Even stopping the Hecate. I don't remember the name. Some Hecate bombs luna, they drive it off and score a victory but oh wait. Circumstance conspires again because now Steele has secured command and he's a better opponent and the damage to Luna is still done and the Hecate will be back in a few weeks.

I may be forgetting some, but the only victories I can remember are saving the civies. Oh and then we stopped a bomb, that was going to be used, to, blow up SOMETHING SOMEWHERE. And then we stop the SOC from rescuing SOMEONE for SOMETHING. Are those victories? Maybe but they mean nothing to me. Or another mission, we save some orbital platform over Earth, but it means nothing because the logistics are all boned across the system and the uffies are still screwed.

Heck even rejuvenating Simms spirit. You save her from depression, but by the end her spirits dead again. And she's pushing you away. And then she's dead for real.

Or the Truce mission. That kind of thing happens in war. We've heard about WW1 the troops in both trenches singing Silent night together, or playing soccer on New Years, or a truce in a French town in WW2 and everyone's gathered around the piano. And they have their truce, they go back to their lines, and then they kill each other. But in WiH, even the true is ruined. Not by tevs, or feds, but by fate and circumstance. Ship comes in, doesn't know what's going on, fires for the heck of it. Oh moment ruined. Why not just have that tender moment, give that bit of hope, and then fight those guys in a later mission.

None of these ideas are bad on their own, but when it keeps getting piled on and on and on the huge pile of bad fortune just breaks it for me.

Quote
The missions prior to Delenda Est were basically a ALFA OEN WINFEST. You could save any and all ships. Delenda Est did a good job in popping that feeling of making a difference and leaving a withered husk.

I don't know what the winfest was. Only mission I remember prior to the end was the elder dying, and the mission before Delenda Est. That mission of course being set up for the big ambush. So again, no victory. If there are some genuine tangible victories let me know.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 01:13:53 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
We looked a lot at the experience of being in the Imperial Japanese Navy circa 1943-1944.

If you consider that 'too obviously scripted' then take it up with God or whoever runs history. Sorry the story was too grimdark for you, but again this comes down to personal taste.

On the factual level I think you're gaming the ambiguities here. You pick out the negative consequences of each 'victory' to show that it wasn't a victory at all, but you fail to note enemy materiel destroyed, time gained, offensives delayed, elite pilots downed, critical stations saved. There are no pure wins, sure, but there aren't that many pure losses either.

It's a story about fighting off defeat. But that's happened a lot in history, to a lot of people in a lot of armies. And until you have the full story you can't expect all the consequences of events in Act 1 to be apparent.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Akalabeth Angel, I think by now everyone knows (very in depth) what you don't like about WiH1 and why. Repeating it another few times won't change anyones opinion and will only clutter up the thread.

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
We looked a lot at the experience of being in the Imperial Japanese Navy circa 1943-1944.

You mean the two years of the Pacific war in which there were no major naval battles?

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If you consider that 'too obviously scripted' then take it up with God or whoever runs history. Sorry the story was too grimdark for you, but again this comes down to personal taste.

Exactly. It's personal tastes. I'm just explaining why it doesn't fit my personal taste so you can understand that 1% that got away. I do however appreciate how with any criticism of your campaign you blame the critic, and not the campaign. In the same way you blamed spoon way back when. And probably did the same to other people. Clearly here the problem with my experience here is me and not the experience.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
We looked a lot at the experience of being in the Imperial Japanese Navy circa 1943-1944.

You mean the two years of the Pacific war in which there were no major naval battles?

May dates may have been slightly off.  :nervous: Basically the bits where they were getting their asses kicked. An absurd percentage of their fleet was lost.

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Exactly. It's personal tastes. I'm just explaining why it doesn't fit my personal taste so you can understand that 1% that got away. I do however appreciate how with any criticism of your campaign you blame the critic, and not the campaign. In the same way you blamed spoon way back when. And probably did the same to other people. Clearly here the problem with my experience here is me and not the experience.

I know that, and I've posted exactly to that effect several times. It's not a matter of apportioning blame, and the examples you picked here are ironically self-defeating - Spoon and I work together pretty closely and his feedback on R1 pretty much echoed, in a much milder sense, my own criticisms of it, the point where all the changes he suggested were already in our plans for R2.

Like I've said several times, you're not going to find a harsher critic of the campaign than me.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Alkabeth, if I may point out again, half of your gripes with WiH are all set to be explained/wrapped up in R2.  Like the Agincourt, or the Vasudans.  Seriously, complaining that those parts of the story weren't "wrapped up" entirely in the first half isn't exactly valid criticism.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Let's just move on. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions. Ultimately the experience of a campaign is a negotiation between the campaign itself and the player.

 

Offline -Sara-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
How many downloads does WiH have by now?
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
That's an excellent question. I'd guess not too many more than last time (doubt we've broken 10,000) but we can try to tally it up again.

 

Offline bigchunk1

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
   When I gave it first thought, I imagined Admiral Steele's 'Serker team' to be undefeatable by the UEF. They jump in and annihilate pretty much any warships, their point defense systems turn back whole squadrons of heavy bombers, and if they are in trouble their jump systems quickly recharge and they're gone. If I were Admiral Calder, i'd call it and wave the white flag. Luckily for the UEF, i'm not Admiral Calder.

Recently, after reading the 'What the heck is the point if the GTVA just jumps?' posts on this thread I have been trying to imagine scenarios where Serker team would get scrapped by UEF forces...

Scenario 1:
UEF baits Serker team with a Karuna frigate, holding two artillery frigates in reserve to jump in the instant Serker team arrives. The Karuna is sacrificed (hopefully with a light crew) and Serker team is pounded to kingdom come before they can charge their drives and escape (hopefully).

Scenario 2:
Fighter squadrons loaded with paveways  are kept on reserve in cockpit flying one tactical jump from suspected targets of Serker team. The instant a subspace vector is detected, the strike team jumps in from behind and disables as many members of Serker team as possible before they escape. A warship strike force of perhaps 1 Karuna or 2 Sanctus, jumps in behind Serker team and destroys them in their disabled state. Hopefully subspace jumps are accurately calculated by an AWACS or another friendly warship in sector, and hopefully the GTVA is dry on reinforcements.
 
Scenario 3:
The UEF pours resources into development of anti-subspace combat tactics, allowing ships to track and hunt down ships in subspace just as in freespace1 with the Lucifer. Hopefully the UEF will have reverse engineered Alpha1's (fs1 Alpha1) fighter to first discover this technology some 60 years ago. If Serker team extends itself too far away from the fleet, a heavy strike team of jumptrack equipped bombers jumps in after Serker team to hound them until they perish. This might require multiple squadrons of bombers with fighter escort to alternate their harassment and whittle the corvettes down, but at least Serker team has nowhere to hide. Hopefully nowhere to run as well.
   
   These are tactics for Serker team. I haven't even considered the GTD Atrius. It seems like that ship does not even need to be in the area to attack, vectoring in subspace missiles via AWACS like in 'Darkest hour'. Someone mentioned a submarine striking from the depths of subspace? That's quite demoralizing for the UEF.

   "This war will never be won by force of arms. It may not be won at all. We need more time... " - Admiral Robert Byrne

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
You could also starve them for fuel and force them to make more careful, efficient jumps. Good luck with that, though!

 

Offline -Sara-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Or lure them into an asteroid or debris field (or similar clustered obstacles) and blow a load of hidden anti-matter mines up in their face.
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Well... the last mission of the Agincort arc shows that they can be beat. Block their beam targeting with an AWACS, send in some gunships and/or fighters to destroy the engines and then even a single Karuna is enough to take them out.
But due to story purposes that mission had the engine systems of those three ships protected, to make sure they are still alive later in the campaign I guess.

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
In a way, everything depends on disabling their engines fast enough. If you can achieve that, it should be easy to blindside them with a frigate or even cruiser when you have the time. Block their communications to make sure they don't get reinforcements for bonus points.

Basically many Shivan and next-gen GTVA ships should be vulnerable to that. Unfortunately it isn't really an easy thing to do.

The minefield idea is also very interesting. I think Minefields are underused in the FS Universe, and I sometimes wonder why. Sure, in open space mine fields are useless, because space is far too huuuuuge, but in FS, with subspace nodes... It seems there should be minefields in frontier systems of the Terran-Vasudan war and Minefields laid during retreat from Shivan forces all the time.

Maybe no one wants to risk never being able to use the mined node ever again, but still, it seems strange that it isn't really used as a tactic all the time.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Passive detonation mines are not always that great. Mines that shoot back, CAPTOR-style - now there's something!