Author Topic: BP: War in Heaven discussion  (Read 549230 times)

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Offline The E

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
As we've said several times, the problem is that the frigate models, while gorgeous, are also not well optimized for in-game usage. We're working on fixing that, but it's taking some time.
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Yeah. We've got the heavy frigate type almost optimized thanks to Esarai's amazing work.

Thank you everybody for your praise, it really helps us keep going.

Quote
Except one though... the whole lesbian thing feels a little gimicky but really who cares??

The lesbian thing was accidental, not thrown in there for titillation.

 

Offline Arcalane

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
The lesbian thing was accidental, not thrown in there for titillation.

It's kinda understandable though. When all the guys are either fighter jocks, deck officers or boring old crewmen...
Don't think, Mechwarrior. Find out.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I should clarify. I don't want to make it out to be 'oh, we'd never have done it on purpose.' In the setting, it's not something that really matters to the characters or to the society they live in, and we as developers have been really touched by the letters of thanks we got from GLBT players who had somebody to root for. But it wasn't written as fanservice.

 
Testing... testing... is this thing on?
Yeah soooo... its been nearly a year since I've been around and played FS2. I remember when I first discovered HLP I was seeking out a means to recover the enthrallment I got when I played FS1 and 2 from their retail launch days. To my amazement and wonder I discovered HLP and low and behold they've gotten the source code and omg they're revamping the graphics and models and everything! It was truly a happy day.

Then I discovered the community projects... Babylon 5, Silent Threat Reborn... to name a few I was blown away by the detail and attention thrown into the projects. It really made my return to the Free Space universe all the better.

So I kept hearing chatter on IRC about this "Blue Planet" mod and some intersting ships available for download. I monkeyed a little bit with some of the ships, they were beautiful... So I took the plunge and downloaded the full mod. From the get go, I was yet again blown away... I didn't think it would be possible for the mod to top ST:R and the like, yet... there it was, in all its glory... A very interesting and riveting story with some fantastic game play. Could it possibly get any better than this?

The question was answered upon my recent return to the Free Space universe with War in Heaven... I was expecting some brilliant work with the follow up to AoA but this exceeded my wildest expectations.

You guys have really outshined yourselves... Not since Final Fantasy 7 have I ever been so drawn into character development, game play, and story. You have brought a very human and realistic aspect. To quote myself from #bp its one of those "have your cake and eat it too" moments that I find are so rare yet highly sought after.

You guys have my sincerest thanks for releasing something of this quality and magnitude for all of us to enjoy. Major kudos to you folks. I can't wait for part 2!

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Testing... testing... is this thing on?
Hooray! Thank you.

 

Offline ssmit132

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I was replaying "The Plunder" in the tech-room, and I was bugged by this line of Laporte's: "They have a thing for oversized, sensational warships. Their Colossus and all. I guess they never learned from the Galatea and Legion." Now, I understand the Colossus part, but I don't really get the part about the Galatea and Legion - the main fighting capships in the GTVA force are corvettes (which are smaller than the UEF's frigates!) and destroyers like the Atreus and Imperiuse have been shown to be quite effective. :confused:

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
The Galatea and Legion were both mainstay warships that lasted about thirty seconds in line combat with their Shivan counterpart - too big and centralized for their jobs. Ironically the same was true of the Colossus. In this case, Laporte seems to be suggesting that the Agincourt would be better off as a lot of smaller logistical assets.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Of course given the way our "why not a carrier" discussions have gone, you could read a lot of the UEF's/Laporte's maturity and understanding of subspace-age tactics into such...
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

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Offline Qent

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Also maybe that the Tevs are compensating for something. :P

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Of course given the way our "why not a carrier" discussions have gone, you could read a lot of the UEF's/Laporte's maturity and understanding of subspace-age tactics into such...

Which in this case as in many are excellent; when the battlespace is essentially contiguous and multiply connected and the limiting factor is number and accuracy of subspace jumps more than anything else, the last thing you want to do is centralize a function. Presenting a distributed target is as effective as presenting a heavily defended one especially because it gives your defense depth and reactivity.

 

Offline bigchunk1

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Re: Testing... testing... is this thing on?

You guys have really outshined yourselves... Not since Final Fantasy 7 have I ever been so drawn into character development, game play, and story. You have brought a very human and realistic aspect. To quote myself from #bp its one of those "have your cake and eat it too" moments that I find are so rare yet highly sought after.

I never played Final Fantasy 7, but I know what you mean. What makes BP so nice (for me) is the level of care and thought that goes into it. It's so apparent in the result. All the elements compliment themselves so nicely that nothing really gets in the way of the player's ability to absorb the experience. The player considers Laporte, her situation, the mystery surrounding her mental state and the characters on both sides of this complicated and grey shaded war. It never crossed my mind that there were 'too many fighters in one wing' or that 'this ship looks tacky' etc. To reiterate what i've said in an earlier post, it really comes off as a professional undertaking. It has become a set of fiction that I have come to 'trust' able to naively and childishly read and ponder its many aspects only to come out with many of the same things you have mentioned.
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Offline Liberator

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I just thought of something, given how effective GTVA ships are vs. the Fed counterpart, why didn't they just charge to Earth and blow everything to hell.  War's over in 20 min with a minimum of casualties.  I mean if the battlegroup from AoA is the spearhead, where's the rest of the fleet?  A spearhead is worthless without a shaft to push it through the enemy.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Fury

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
If you had actually read this topic, you wouldn't have had to ask.

1) Fed capitals are plenty effective against Tevs, Fed capitals have advantage in range and tactics compared to average Tev cruiser/corvette.
2) Fed fighters and bombers outperform Tev equivalents.
3) Solaris represent real deterrence unless Tevs somehow manage to find all three with their pants down.

In conclusion. Tevs have advantage in their beam weapons but they are only able to use that advantage in direct head-to-head confrontation within range of their beams. Feds don't have to play into Tevs hands by allowing that. Instead they can disarm these beams fairly effortlessly by using gauss cannons, torpedoes and gunships.

Feds capitals excel at anti-fighter role. It is far harder for Tevs to disarm and disable Fed capitals. Not only that, but Feds gunships and bombers specialize in anti-capital role and they are far more maneuverable than Tevs cruisers and corvettes. And Feds have the means to protect those gunships and bombers while they do their job.

Feds would be able to mobilize far more assets than what Tevs could bring through the one node, particularly when Tevs can't even bring in full force because they have to maintain presence in other systems just in case of Shivans.

The war is not simply about which side has the biggest guns on their capital ships. Beams won't make that big of a difference in grand scheme of things. Yes, it is undeniable advantage, but still very limited advantage.

Not to mention that Tevs would have one humongous disadvantage if they would just storm Earth. They have no target there. Did you expect Tevs to bomb Earth or something? Well, not gonna happen, Earth is their home too and they want it intact. Sure, there are bases around Earth orbit. But they would still have to pick military targets. While Tevs would be busy blasting those stations, Feds would be busy blasting their ships. In the end Tevs would receive huge losses in exchange for few stations.

Tevs need to target Feds logistical support to win the war. All war critical assets are heavily guarded and Feds would get advance warning of every move Tevs make and react accordingly. Direct confrontations in both sides would result in hefty losses for both sides, including Tevs. And Tevs would lose regardless of their advantage in beams.

In short, if Tevs would use direct-confrontation as their primary tactics, they would win battles but not the war. Their war effort would collapse due to losses received. Beams aren't going to change that. Steele plays aggressively, but he's not stupid. He's going to be very careful at managing his assets, logistics and minimize losses, that's the only way to win against an opponent on his home ground.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 03:29:22 am by Fury »

 

Offline Ypoknons

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Many of the Fed's tactical advantages will melt away in a frontal assault. Sehkr team, for example, is just dead as anyone else if pinned down by artillery frigates and Durgas (nevermind the super-heavy bombers, those are downright scary). Try some stuff in FRED - if the UEF manages to get the drop on the GTVA instead, it isn't pretty for the GTVA. Or see the attack on the Severanti's flagship, the retreat of the Atreus at Rheza and the defeat at Artesia. The GTVA has been very good at maximizing its tactical advantages, and that's how they win, but they can be beat too.

Strategically, the GTVA wants as much benefit from Earth whilst expending as little of their own resources as possible.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 03:51:50 am by Ypoknons »
Long time ago, you see, there was this thing called the VBB and... oh, nevermind.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Furthermore when the GTVA came through the node they wouldn't have known the capabilities of the UEF ships. Commiting your entire fleet in that systems against an enemy you know barely anything about and leaving your support lines unprotected on top of that is just plain suicide.

Even if they would have done as you suggest and by some miracle gained orbital dominance of Earth, that would leave them cut off. They can't conquer Earth, so they won't get supplys from down there. And since they have their entire Sol fleet around Earth, the Jovian and Martian fleets can simply entrench themselfs at the jumpnode and wait till the GTVA forces run out of fuel, food and all kind of other supplys while constantly nibbling away at them with small hit-and-run attacks.

 

Offline Fury

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Many of the Fed's tactical advantages will melt away in a frontal assault.
Bear in mind that the only beams that are significantly more powerful than Feds torps/mass driver/gauss cannon combo are the new-gen blue ones. Of the new ships all but Diomedes, Titan and Raynor have all their firepower directed forward. On the other hand you have Feds with torp launcher that have about 240 degree coverage. This means that Feds are more maneuverable in close quarters. Feds are dead if those new-gen ships catch them their pants down, but otherwise it may go either way depending on situation and what ships are in the engagement.

FS2-era Tev ships don't have enough firepower to ensure a sure victory over Feds. It takes less time for Feds torps to kill those beams than it does those beamers to kill the Fed ship. Engagements never are so static though, so this comparison doesn't hold water much. The new-gen BP-era ships have more firepower though and more often than not, can survive a direct confrontation.

More importantly, Tevs need to ensure that their ships stay alive for perform in the next operation. Managing to kill Fed ships in direct combat is fine and all, but getting your own ships killed when they can't jump out before Feds retaliate isn't smart. I'm sure you've seen this happen in WiH several times, for example two Diomedes corvettes in The Darkest Hour and Aristeia. Some may argue that those two corvettes died for nothing.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 04:31:00 am by Fury »

 

Offline The E

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Also, take a very close look at this thread.

At the start of hostilities, the UEF had 3 Destroyers, 35+ Frigates and 60+ Cruisers. And what can only be described as a whole damn lot of Fighters, Bombers and Gunships. There is no way a GTVA Battlegroup (or 2, or 3) can simply steamroll through a force that size.

Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Which in this case as in many are excellent; when the battlespace is essentially contiguous and multiply connected and the limiting factor is number and accuracy of subspace jumps more than anything else, the last thing you want to do is centralize a function. Presenting a distributed target is as effective as presenting a heavily defended one especially because it gives your defense depth and reactivity.

Which ignores the logistical problems inherent. Logistical support is more effectively delivered via a few large ships rather than many small ones. Duplication of ships is duplication of effort. Many small ones opens the possibility of defeat in detail. They are unable to defend themselves, attack, and scout all at once because of their small number of fightercraft, they may not even be able to execute more than one of these tasks at a time. Coordination becomes more problematic.

Everyone on the planet (except you?) learned the problem with small carriers back in the Second World War. If you want to design an effective carrier, you need a large embarked force. If you want to do that in FreeSpace, it has to be able to defend itself.

Laporte's commentary even goes against her own service's design of the Solaris, for chrissakes.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Arcalane

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I'm sure you've seen this happen in WiH several times, for example two Diomedes corvettes in The Darkest Hour and Aristeia. Some may argue that those two corvettes died for nothing.

I feel sorry for the Diomedes in Aristeia - I managed to neutralize it's slash beam emitters within a couple of minutes of it's arrival. With no AI programming to initiate a roll maneuver in order to bring the other two emitters to bear, it was systematically pulverized by torpedo barrages whilst the remaining ships in the battlegroup moved in on the GTD Hood.
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