Author Topic: BP: War in Heaven discussion  (Read 542903 times)

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Offline IvKir

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
But if the war drags on much longer, the GTVA will have to change their line.
That they were able to hold out against a superiour enemy for over two years shows that the UEF aren't completely pacifistic and incapable of defending themselfs as the GTVA claims them to be. Now add the Tevs high fighter losses into the mix (that many death can't be hidden for long, no matter how good their information controll and propaganda is) and surely some people "back home"  will start to question the GTVAs motives and/or their validity.
Which would of course explain why the GTVA gave Steele the freedoms he seems to have in commanding the Sol invasion forces. They run out of time and thus are willing to take greater risks both with the vasudans and on matters of moral (like nuclear bombing of civilian areas on Luna or calling the "total war clause" of the BETAC into effect).

Well.. that make sense, on some point, but still... well, maybe it's just my Russian soul. :)

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Oh right, forgot that in WiH pilots can eject.
But while it's true that a side might overclaim their killcounts, but the Techroom entries (which sound more like an outsiders point of view) speak about the GTVA suffering great fighter losses untill the dump the tactics they used against the Shivans, which turned out to be disasterious against UEF fighters. On top of that we see massive numbers of GTVA fighters destroyed almost every mission.
Spoiler:
Just take the first mission:
3 Pegasi, 4 Artemis and 4 Myrmidons destroyed before the safepoint. Several Rhea, Boanerges and escorts (don't remember the exact numbers there, but at least 6 Rhea and 3 Boa) after that. And all the UEF had on scene were two damaged cuisers and one wing of three rookies.

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But yeah, there are ways to hide the amount of fighter losses.
And how would you explain to the families of those pilots why they are no longer coming home or calling or writing? Claiming all those people missing, out of communication or dead by accidents won't work for long.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
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and the Brahmas of old and all that business between them and the shivies.

Same there.

What? All that discussion between the Shivans and Vishnian nd some kind of council and ancient creators - all that is not real? Bei made it up?


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As ideas and concepts, I hate them in their very core with the blazing intensity of a million supernovas.

Really? If I'm not mistaken you're a big fan of Sword of the Stars, which includes ancient creator races (the Suul'Ka), psionics, and other fairly similar elements.

Different animals altogether.
SOTS also didn't have Chosen Mary Sues and prophetic visions.




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And the vibe I got...like some religious-political propaganda pamphlet. Seriously, I felt like the campaign was advertising this Unbutu and Buddhism or whatever.


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Hrm. Why?

All that said I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Hard to explain. I just did. Maybe because it was brought up so often.

Hey, I gave it 9/10 (if you like such plot stuff). That's as high as any game will EVER get on my meter. But I usually score games in ranges, since I feel it is more accurate. Note that 5 equals average = good.
So if I say 6,7-9 out of 10....That's high praise from me. IF you ever see me giving anything a 10/10, feel free to shot me, as I lost my mind and every last shred of objectivity I had.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 08:57:40 am by TrashMan »
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Offline The E

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
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and the Brahmas of old and all that business between them and the shivies.

Same there.

What? All that discussion between the Shivans and Vishnian nd some kind of council and ancient creators - all that is not real? Bei made it up?

No, he didn't make it up. However, what Bei saw was a heavily simplified and not necessarily accurate message from the Vishnans. The Vishnans do have an agenda of their own, and so what they told Bei could be deliberate misinformation on their part.
Let there be light
Let there be moon
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Offline Spoon

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
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SOTS also didn't have Chosen Mary Sues and prophetic visions.
Quote from: Wikipedia
A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy  for the author or reader. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious  for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".
I don't really feel Bei or Laporte fall in that catagory...
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Trashman is, like many do, simply applying the label to something he doesn't like without regard to the term's meaning.

Nevermind that FS is more or less built around the concept of a wish-fulfilment story being a first-person combat flight sim with an AFGNCAAP protagonist and therefore a Mary Sue is the best form of character to represent the player.
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Offline Flak

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
At this point, we do not know the background information surrounding the GTVA high command or the Ubuntu elders. Even Steele is probably just following orders.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I don't really feel Bei or Laporte fall in that catagory...
Martin Mandho = Darius
Noemi Laporte = Battuta

:nervous:

:shaking:

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I don't really feel Bei or Laporte fall in that catagory...
Martin Mandho = Darius
Noemi Laporte = Battuta

:nervous:

:shaking:
  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline Ypoknons

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I'm not a spiritual man but I've lived in Asia long enough, and I know the basics. BP Ubuntu's similarities with Buddhism is superficial at best, Ubuntu doesn't talk anything about inner vacuity or reincarnation circles. A large part of Ubuntu and UEF success comes from good economic models, especially infrastructure investments (with certain real-world parallels here) and a spirit to achieve worldly goals, including scientific achievement - trust me, neither Buddhism or Taoism or Confucius talk much about that. With regards to the Elders, it's interesting, I think I'll have to see more before I can really judge. Prima facie, a closed one party circle would seem contradictory to transparent and accountable government, but it's not impossible either.

At the same time, there's much we don't know about the GTVA, especially with the post-Capella changes in the BP universe. I'm not sure we can just assume it's western democracy in space. Sure, they have a general assembly, but how many political parties? What is the balance of power? What is electoral system across the different GTVA worlds? Does the system encourage citizen involvement in government, or does the business sector or the military dominate?
Long time ago, you see, there was this thing called the VBB and... oh, nevermind.

 

Offline Commander Zane

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I don't really feel Bei or Laporte fall in that catagory...
Martin Mandho = Darius
Noemi Laporte = Battuta

:nervous:

:shaking:
If that's the case, I must be a Shivan. :nervous:

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I don't really feel Bei or Laporte fall in that catagory...
Martin Mandho = Darius
Noemi Laporte = Battuta

:nervous:

:shaking:
SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Fix'd.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
BTW, BP-team, i can't still get it, why human community in GTVA space don't get troubled about this war? I mean, if i was there, i probably shouted: "What the hell guy's?! Are you gone crazy? This IS Earth, how the hell there can be illegal goverment?? Thats a bull****"

And i think that i'm not alone in this, i guess.

Oh, there's definitely some discontent on the home front; I believe you get hints of this during War in Heaven. Remember, one of the reasons for the war is the fact that the GTVA does not have a great grip on the hearts and minds of its people; it lacks soft power. The war has polarized the populace, both rallying a lot of support and crystallizing a lot of opposition. The GTVA has to manage presentation of the war very carefully.

Going from a democractically elected government to a semireligious autocratic wtf that doesn't even register as a government to most people is usually regarded as a step backward.

Well bear in mind that the Federation is perfectly democratic on the year-to-year level; it just has this weird little Council attached to it, which has very little short-term power but steers things in the long run. It's like the Supreme Court but bigger and more executive than judicial.

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I think if UEF have beams, then they should be either red or white.

Purple!

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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Red would be too Shivan and I don't think purple would fit in with the coloring of their ships. Maybe turquiose?

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
BTW, BP-team, i can't still get it, why human community in GTVA space don't get troubled about this war? I mean, if i was there, i probably shouted: "What the hell guy's?! Are you gone crazy? This IS Earth, how the hell there can be illegal goverment?? Thats a bull****"

Rampant propaganda that shows the Federation as an autocratic dictatorship, almost a theocracy led by the Council of Elders.

You should look at history for examples about how unbelievably easy it is to make people feel threatened by the faction you want to go to war with.
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Offline terran_emperor

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Tell me, was the Halo-verse an inluence of the tactics of the two sides?

Cos Capital ship warfare in this reminds me of how it is described in the Halo books:

The UEF ships relying on Railguns and Missile Barrages is very similar to the UNSC tactics

Whilst the GTVA ships ripped things appart with beams - very similar to the Covenant...

And the UEF scoring minor victories but getting trounced in the big battles is also basically the UNSC's story

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Battles in Freespace are usually spread out over a wide corridor of space, and rarely are there huge, decisive clashes.

Remember all the way back in FS1? Operation Thresher had the GTA lose over 300+ fighters and pilots, and yet that didn't effect fleet operations at all it seemed.

Thus I have no trouble swallowing a higher rate of attrition with even more dangerous weapons. Battles of Endor don't usually reflect how the GTVA/GTA usually fight, it's more spread out than that.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
GTVA has no interest in destroying the UEF or glassing planets. That's a huge difference in the strategy compared to Covenant.

The biggest problem GTVA faces is in fact not the UEF military, but the logistical impossibility of occupying Earth (and, to lesser extent Mars). The best they can hope is to take control of the solar system space and orbital facilities, but if Earth population by and large decides they don't want to give their resources to the GTVA, what would GTVA do?

Send in the Marines? The Earth alone is probably still the largest population center of humanity, and most likely more populous than the GTVA as a whole.

As far as comparison to Covenant (pre-Halo 2 events) would go, their interest in humanity would be complete destruction.

So the question arises - what does the GTVA hope to accomplish with the war? Do they want to win the hearts and minds of the UEF population, or try to subjugate the leadership of UEF to act as their puppets or possibly remove the UEF leading organs and replace them with GTVA command?

Just saying that if the UEF decides to go for organized resistance on planetside, GTVA would have a hard time dealing with it.
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Offline terran_emperor

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Thats not what i was saying. And I dont have a problem with that

What I was saying was that the UEF (losing) with Missiles&Rail Guns/GTVA (Wining) with Beams reminds me of how Capship combat  is described in the Halo-verse.

So I was asking if the Halo-verse was an influence
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"I really wasn't expecting this much losership"


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