Author Topic: BP: War in Heaven discussion  (Read 540001 times)

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Offline Kosh

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
Well, I always assumed the GTA had continuance as the Terran part of the GTVA, and the PVE folded into the fleet structure and as an equal partner in the alliance (but still, loosely, as an autonomous empire)


Actually it's the other way around. The GTA completely collapsed before the formation of the GTVA and so the terran systems were in total chaos.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Ypoknons

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Their entire new fleet is BASED around destroying Shivans. It's not physically possible to defeat the Shivans as it stands, but the GTVA stands a better chance of holding down the fort (As in, they won't roll over in a day when the Shivans come knocking) until a solution is found. THAT makes them a more efficient and prepared government than the UEF can ever hope to be in my eyes.
You say "ever hope to be." Is there a reason why the UEF cannot collobrate in peacetime with the GTVA to build an anti-Shivan fleet?
Long time ago, you see, there was this thing called the VBB and... oh, nevermind.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
Well, I always assumed the GTA had continuance as the Terran part of the GTVA, and the PVE folded into the fleet structure and as an equal partner in the alliance (but still, loosely, as an autonomous empire)


Actually it's the other way around. The GTA completely collapsed before the formation of the GTVA and so the terran systems were in total chaos.
Not total chaos. The GTA disintegrated into semi-autonomous regional blocs.

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
There really isn't a reason why the GTVA and UEF can't build warships together, except the UEF has deep cultural issues about building the sort of warfleets necessary to repel Shivan incursions.  They're very much a peaceful, isolationist society that wishes we could all just get along, except we can't because the Shivans could show up at any minute with a new ship of mass destruction bent on exterminating the Terrans and Vasudans.  The UEF could be described as a utopian society and have the name fit, except the UEF happens to exist in an imperfect galaxy, and I think the UEF wouldn't last five minutes if they opened themselves up to the outside galaxy.

The way I see it, and a reason why I have issues with Noemi being told by Ken to wipe out the GTVA is the GTVA is a monster of the Shivans' own creation.  The Shivans glassed Vasuda Prime, nearly destroyed Earth, and caused untold destruction in T-V space during the Great War.  Then, during the Second Shivan Incursion, the Shivans destroy an entire star system by causing (a) star(s) to go supernova with a fleet of eighty six-kilometer-long juggernauts each capable of wiping out a small fleet with one BFRed, and they each have four of those.  Noemi also mentions about how the Tevs have lost something important during their encounters with the Shivans.  Every time the Shivans have shown up, they've wreaked massive death and destruction upon the Terrans and Vasudans, so the Terrans becoming hard-ass bastards focused on survival at any cost by any means is unsurprising, to say the least, and to the best of my knowledge the Shivans just want to wipe out what they've created with no sign of remorse.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
There really isn't a reason why the GTVA and UEF can't build warships together, except the UEF has deep cultural issues about building the sort of warfleets necessary to repel Shivan incursions.  They're very much a peaceful,

Peaceful, yes, but...

Quote
isolationist society

If you read up on their history and ideology (or pay attention to some of the dialogue in WiH), they're actually very much about going out there and Doing Stuff. 'Kill stuff' is possibly not on their Top Ten Hobbies list, but Make Stuff and Find Stuff and Invent Stuff and Explore Stuff all are.

It's an open question as to what the UEF would do given interstellar travel.

Awesome discussion though.  :yes: Just tossing in factoids to keep things turning, I'd never ruin this by taking sides.

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
There really isn't a reason why the GTVA and UEF can't build warships together, except the UEF has deep cultural issues about building the sort of warfleets necessary to repel Shivan incursions.  They're very much a peaceful, isolationist society that wishes we could all just get along, except we can't because the Shivans could show up at any minute with a new ship of mass destruction bent on exterminating the Terrans and Vasudans.  The UEF could be described as a utopian society and have the name fit, except the UEF happens to exist in an imperfect galaxy, and I think the UEF wouldn't last five minutes if they opened themselves up to the outside galaxy.


On the flipside what caused those incursions were largescale interstellar wars via subspace. The UEF's pacifism might actually prevent a third incursion.

Quote
Not total chaos. The GTA disintegrated into semi-autonomous regional blocs.

Anytime you remove a central authority from an area like that the results are never pretty. Somalia is a good example of that.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Jellyfish

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
'Kill stuff' is possibly not on their Top Ten Hobbies list, but Make Stuff and Find Stuff and Invent Stuff and Explore Stuff all are.
The Human Way of Doing Stuff. Only without the 'use all of this to make Stuff that can Kill Stuff' (also part of the Human Way of Doing Stuff), which, IMO, is why the UEF failed to pass the Species Survival in a Hostile Universe test.
"A weapon is only as powerful as its wielder. With this weapon, you'll be but an annoyance, which would greatly dishonor it. With this weapon, I can change history. With me, this weapon can shape the universe."

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Yep.  Chances are there are more races in the galaxy than the Shivans, Vasudans, and Terrans, and not all of those may be friendly, and the UEF may be force to wage a large-scale interstellar war using subspace against a hostile race through no fault of their own, and I don't think the Shivans will attack only the antagonists.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Ypoknons

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
They're very much a peaceful, isolationist society that wishes we could all just get along, except we can't because the Shivans could show up at any minute with a new ship of mass destruction bent on exterminating the Terrans and Vasudans.  The UEF could be described as a utopian society and have the name fit, except the UEF happens to exist in an imperfect galaxy, and I think the UEF wouldn't last five minutes if they opened themselves up to the outside galaxy.
Given the empricial evidence I'm not sure if UEF is that isolationist. Their fleet is small, but that's because they've been trapped in their own system with a mostly unified politicial system. A fleet of frigates would have been enough for peacekeeping and fighting terrorists, yet they built the Solaris destroyers anyways. The point is that they have more military than they actually need. It's normal for militaries to scale down without an active threat, and with no active subspace nodes and no knowledge of Knossos devices, it's a different story from the GTVA, who knew the Shivans can jump in at any time.  Granted, the UEF is a creature of its situation, but it's not nessarsily isolationist or pacifist. You can't expect them to have a military buildup like the GTVA without any subspace nodes or knowledge that you can "fix" subspace nodes. Like the General said, how they'd adapt to rejoining the interstellar community is an open question.


The problem with the BP GTVA is that they're a society teetering on the edge - their economy recovery from Capella has been slow, their relationship with their closest ally is enstranged (instead of profiting from trade and growth), their growth is limited. A society needs a healthy economy to support a large, well equipped military, otherwise the debt gets overwhelming, the financial system falls apart, society becomes unstable - much of what happened to the old GTA in Sol. They're kept things together by investing in Centeur station, but where do they go from there?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 01:53:40 am by Ypoknons »
Long time ago, you see, there was this thing called the VBB and... oh, nevermind.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
SOTS also didn't have Chosen Mary Sues and prophetic visions.
Quote from: Wikipedia
A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy  for the author or reader. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious  for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".
I don't really feel Bei or Laporte fall in that catagory...

Check the definition on TV TROPES.

Mary Sue is not purely about power - but how other characters react around the Sue.
Pretty much the whole universe revolves around Bei and even moreso Laporte, especially since we keep getting reminded how important and "speshul" they are.


Quote
Trashman is, like many do, simply applying the label to something he doesn't like without regard to the term's meaning.

Nevermind that FS is more or less built around the concept of a wish-fulfilment story being a first-person combat flight sim with an AFGNCAAP protagonist and therefore a Mary Sue is the best form of character to represent the player.

Bollocks.
FS 1 and 2 is not about Alpha1. You're not a super-special snowlake. Just a talented pilot.
The difference is so obvious I shouldn't even have to write this...

You fail again NGTM-1R
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 01:58:55 am by TrashMan »
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

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Offline Qent

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Isn't Ubuntu mainly empirical? I haven't read the dossiers recently, but I kind of recall that Ubuntu does what works first and is pacifistic only as a corollary to that. Assuming it works as advertised then, I'd bet on the Federation being as prepared for the Shivans as possible given the circumstances and information they had.

As the GTVA, I'd see Ubuntu as a sure way to save the economy, and therefore the quickest path to bigger ships with bigger beams. I would also be confident that since Ubuntu does what works by definition, it will not result in the GTVA rolling over and dying in the face of the Shivan threat. So yeah, I'm tired and I need to reread the docs on Ubuntu.

 

Offline Jellyfish

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Pretty much the whole universe revolves around Bei and even moreso Laporte, especially since we keep getting reminded how important and "speshul" they are.
Well, it's not like people that can talk to extradimensional aliens are a dime a dozen...
"A weapon is only as powerful as its wielder. With this weapon, you'll be but an annoyance, which would greatly dishonor it. With this weapon, I can change history. With me, this weapon can shape the universe."

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Isn't that a bit of a Chosen Mary Sue thing right there?

Ypoknons:  At the end of FS1, after you defeat the Lucifer, end up in Sol, and the node collapses, Alpha 1 mentions being told the Shivans will return and that they can rebuild the destroyed node.  If I were the Sol government, I'd be worrying about the GTA outside Sol being destroyed, the Shivans showing up in Sol with another Lucifer or three, and finishing what they started.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
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  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Isn't that a bit of a Chosen Mary Sue thing right there?

le sigh

The trope has clearly started being overapplied when characters like Luke Skywalker or Frodo start being labeled 'Mary Sues'.

Neither Laporte nor Bei qualify.

 

Offline Ypoknons

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Ypoknons:  At the end of FS1, after you defeat the Lucifer, end up in Sol, and the node collapses, Alpha 1 mentions being told the Shivans will return and that they can rebuild the destroyed node.  If I were the Sol government, I'd be worrying about the GTA outside Sol being destroyed, the Shivans showing up in Sol with another Lucifer or three, and finishing what they started.
That's a good point, and I had forgotten. That might very well have the been the reason why the Solaris project got through, in fact.
Long time ago, you see, there was this thing called the VBB and... oh, nevermind.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
That monologue at the end of FS1 isn't a good argument.
As far as we know it might only have been Alpha 1 hearing voices and noone else believing him.

And even if the majority of Sol believed that at first, the Shivans didn't come for decade after decade. So surely more and more people would have started to think that the Shivans either can't rebuild jumpnodes or simply aren't interrested in Humanity anymore, because of their isolation.
They did recover the Ancient materials that suggested the Shivans to attack only those that attacked other races after all.

On top of that a Karuna can easily defeat a beamless Demon. Of course that's not enough to crack a Lucifer, but maybe they build the Solarises for exactly that reason.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I am confused.

There seems to be a widely agreed consensus about the fact that Shivans, should they really want to destroy humanity, could not be stopped.

Yet, at the same time people propose that since GTVA's fleet could (speculatively) deter the Shivans for a longer period of time, they are the preferable faction of the two.

However, consider this: Based on FS1 monologues, what kind of factions do the Shivans go after?

Quote from: Ancients Monologues
Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further, spreading in our galaxy and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.

And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it. In months the extermination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.

...

When the destroyers came for us, we attacked. Never had we been defeated. They are like the others. Strange, hideous, resisting, fighting. Only these were not like the others. They did not die.

We made our first retreat. We could forego one system. We left it to the destroyers and went elsewhere. But they followed, they hunted us. They followed us when we retreated, discovered where we lived.

For a long time, we did not know why they chased us. They were no ordinary enemy. They did not seek our territory, our technology, our resources.

Now we know our crime was sin.

...

And we retreated to our home system. Abandoned our empire. We believed at home we would be safe. For they are not a terrestrial species.

We know when we entered subspace we were trespassers. But our planet is our home. And yet still they came. And our world is gone.

...

There are a few of us left. We know we will soon be gone. And so we can see our fate as others will see it. There will be little legacy. No great expressions of what we once were. Our technology, our achievements if ever they are seen again will spawn none of the awe that filled our conquests.

We know our fate. We are being eliminated. When we traveled subspace, the cosmic destroyers took note.

When we conquered and colonized in galaxies where we had no place the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom. And so the destroyers came for us.

...

There is little left for us. Little time. But much irony.

We did discover they are not invulnerable. The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed. But we have no way to deliver the hurt.

We have the knowledge but not the means. And so this is our legacy. In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace they can be tracked.

Quote from: Campaign End
I know why the Ancient ones were destroyed and I know what they knew. I know that if not for the Shivans, they would have perished long before. Without the Shivans, someone would have discovered the Ancients in their infancy, and eliminated them, just surely as they eliminated countless billions of others.

I believe it is only the destroyers who are killed. The Shivans are the great destroyers but they are also the great preservers. That is why when we moved into space there was no one powerful enough to kill us. Long had we been the destroyer. Our turn had nearly come.

In the Vasudan war, we learned how to adapt, we learned how to study our enemy, we learned how to overcome, we learned how to survive. And so we did.

All the jump points from Earth are gone. But the Shivans can rebuild them. I'm told we can expect them again, but not in my lifetime. Such is liberation.

Assuming that this information is accurate, the Shivans attacked the Ancients because of their aggressive, expansionist nature; faction that prevents the evolution of other factions. Alternative interpretation is rampant subspace usage, but I find that somewhat unlikely.

Does Ubuntu and by extension UEF fulfill that description?


Now consider which faction has better chances of survival: One that attracts the attention of unstoppable destroyers yet has the military capacity to deter them for a given period of time before total collapse, or one that doesn't have quite as much military capacity and under attack would crumble faster, but doesn't attract the attention of the Shivans?

Of course there's the possibility that the Shivans are just doing it for the lulz but I doubt it.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
Not total chaos. The GTA disintegrated into semi-autonomous regional blocs.
Anytime you remove a central authority from an area like that the results are never pretty. Somalia is a good example of that.
Yes. But canonically that's not what happened.

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
Quote
Trashman is, like many do, simply applying the label to something he doesn't like without regard to the term's meaning.

Nevermind that FS is more or less built around the concept of a wish-fulfilment story being a first-person combat flight sim with an AFGNCAAP protagonist and therefore a Mary Sue is the best form of character to represent the player.

Bollocks.
FS 1 and 2 is not about Alpha1. You're not a super-special snowlake. Just a talented pilot.
The difference is so obvious I shouldn't even have to write this...

You fail again NGTM-1R
You fail at reading comprehension Trashman. NGTM-1R didn't say that Alpha one Is a mary sue. But that a mary sue is the best form of character to represent the player in this genre.

Quote
SOTS also didn't have Chosen Mary Sues and prophetic visions.
Quote from: Wikipedia
A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy  for the author or reader. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious  for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".
I don't really feel Bei or Laporte fall in that catagory...

Check the definition on TV TROPES.

Mary Sue is not purely about power - but how other characters react around the Sue.
Pretty much the whole universe revolves around Bei and even moreso Laporte, especially since we keep getting reminded how important and "speshul" they are.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue Read the article again, please do tell how many of these points even apply to Laporte. Cause I can't find much.
I'm getting the impression though, that trying to argue with you is pretty much futile on this point.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Check the definition on TV TROPES.

Quote
The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.

Well, female bit that sure as hell ain't Bei. Neither of them are idealized wish-fulfillment versions of Darius as far as you or I know. And Noemi is a pyschopath and thus hardly somebody anyone here wants to be (I would hope). The names are not exotic for the setting. The character's talent is specifically tied to the players so I suppose if you've decided the REAL Bei/Laporte is actually controlled by QD that could be an argument (but that's a stupid decision) and the wide variety of areas isn't even touched on. They do both talk to things that aren't there for most people and the things talk back too, but this is one of a large number of possible qualifiers, and the BP team has stated specifically that they are not unique. The lack of flaws argument could be made about Bei, but on the other hand it most certainly cannot be made about Noemi.

Considering the lack of physical description, it's nearly impossible to apply traditional Mary Sue labels to either of them.

So as it stands you've managed to make a more successful, slightly, argument for Bei being a Mary Sue then for Noemi. You hit two points successfully out of eleven. 2/11. 18%. Your argument ain't doing well here Trash.

Black Hole Sue: I direct you to another trope called Little Hero Big War.

Of individual Sue Types TVTropes lists, if you wish to claim that they are God Mode Sue, this is clearly wrong for Laporte, who can actually be shot out of her fighter at one point, a first for a FreeSpace Campaign in that the player themselves can completely fail of their own accord and continue. Bei one could make that argument, but then, so could you for Alpha 1. They do both fail on occasion but never through any fault of their own, which is classic Sue symptoms. If Bei is a Sue, all player characters are Sues, so he's in good company.

Can't be Purity Sue in a combat flight sim. Let's move on.

Mary Tzu: You're not commanding anybody. I suppose you could say the player gets in on this if they've played the mission before what with their apparently divinely inspired foreknowledge. But that's the player, not the character.

Jerk Sue: Neither of these characters is a jerk. Granted Laporte is mentally unbalanced but she's not a jerk.

Possession Sue: Not possible in the setting. Unless you're gonna claim that Bei is Snipes. Which The_E has already denied most vigorously since the team says Snipes is dead.

Can't be a Copycat Sue either. Unless all player characters are.

Relationship Sue: Uh. Well, no. This usually refers to a canonical character and that didn't and can't happen.

Anti Sue: Well, I guess if you really suck at playing the game, but again that's the player and not the character.

Villian Sue: What, are you a Shivan?

Fixer Sue: references to canonical works preclude.

Thirty Sue Pileup: lol

Mary Sue is not purely about power - but how other characters react around the Sue.
Pretty much the whole universe revolves around Bei and even moreso Laporte, especially since we keep getting reminded how important and "speshul" they are.
[/quote

Bollocks.
FS 1 and 2 is not about Alpha1. You're not a super-special snowlake. Just a talented pilot.
The difference is so obvious I shouldn't even have to write this...

You fail again NGTM-1R

Only in your head, Trash. Only in your head.

So let me ask you this. Do you in fact understand the terms you throw around so casually? Are you a writer? Are you a fandom writer? Do you deal with this terminology day in and day out? I am, I am, and I do. I have some conception of what I'm actually talking about here because I need to. From whence comes your expertise on the subject?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 09:11:36 am by NGTM-1R »
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