Author Topic: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)  (Read 26742 times)

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
I feel that something does not match...
Size, speed, weapon power, there's definitely something wrong in FS.

Each week, I take a train that goes faster than 220 mph... In 2336, my fighter : 80 mph. :lol:

I liked the way IWar 2 Edge of Chaos handled speed : it was more a matter of acceleration than absolute speed.
And I want nuke effects like in Battlestar Galactica, or some more understandable figures in the tech room.

It's actually 80 meters per second
That's equal to 178 mph.... Not that fast, I know, but I guess its because of game-play reasons

 
Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
Also, about nukes in space, the explosions from any kind of bomb are naturally chaotic and are subject to having an uneven explosion. The armors of the 24th-25th century would probably be built directly around stoping such forces, also to prevent the ship from ripping apart if any compartment has a breach.
Nukes in space will have almost completely spherical detonations; the amount of energy released is so large that it won't be anything but without rather extreme measures, like including material that is heavily reflective to X-rays in part of the casing.  The chaotic nature of explosions that you are used to is because a) you mostly see events which are very low energy, and b) there's this thing called air that happens to be in the way.  In space with nukes, both of those things are no longer true.

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Therefore indirect weapons fire would be almost completely useless, unless of course it was a cosmic force like that of a subspace rift bomb (like the Trinity Torpedo from Into the Depths of Hell).  Still however, a focused blast would be required, and this would mean to down-size the blast radius tremendously using some sort of device.  Also a direct impact would be required so that the target would be caught in the weapon's blast's point-of-origin.
If a shaped charge is pointed in your direction, it will affect you significantly from farther away than an unfocused weapon will.  Shaped charges are all about getting more energy to where its needed, with as little waste as possible, either to limit damage to the surroundings, or to get away with using a smaller charge.  To do significant damage, a focused blast is not required.  It doesn't really matter if you catch 40% of the energy or 80% of it when the 40% is more than enough to vaporize or heavily damage you.

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So, yeah. That's why the explosions are smaller.
No, it's because there's no air, and a neat thing called the inverse square law.  Go pick up a physics textbook and think about more detailed reasons why.

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And even if the GTVA got to one of the planets or moons and bombed a city, they would have to use similar directed weapons fire, or the blasts would spatter uselessly across the frame of the buildings. Which most likely, especially if they are military, would have more armor than a capital class of similar size.
Civilian buildings are not designed to stand up to direct nuclear attack; it's worthless to do so, because of the sheer rarity of such attacks and the fantastic expense involved, even in the FS universe - remember, even with the industrial resources of entire solar systems, the GTVA does not have an especially large fleet.  Most military buildings won't be armored like ships are either; again, it's almost certainly just too expensive.

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
A nuke impacting against a hull still releases more than enough energy to melt the impacted section down to radioactive slag in a microsecond.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Scotty

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
Gameplay, the highest form of canon for FreeSpace, disagrees with you, good sir.

It will, however, **** **** up, just not quite to that effect.

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
So punching a big hole in the hull doesn't significantly weaken the overall hull integrity? This is actually one thing that was fairly well reflected by FS gameplay given the power of the Harbinger.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Scotty

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
It would, yes, except it doesn't punch a big hole in the hull.  It impacts, you see the shockwave, and the ship keeps fighting.

Yes, it's hurt.  Yes, the bomb is reeeeally painful, but it doesn't melt holes in the sides of destroyers.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
I dunno, I kinda buy what Kosh is saying. It'd be awesome to see shallow glowing craters in the armor.

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
i bet if V could have done that with the engine, they would have. 
I like to stare at the sun.

 

Offline Shivan Hunter

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
* Shivan Hunter looks furtively in the direction of the festering pile of decal code that was recently expunged entirely from SCP

 

Offline The E

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
That wasn't V code though.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 
Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
And yeah, the numbers [V] threw around for their weapons seem ridiculous.  I don't know how effective nukes and such would be in space, but if they're even a tiny fraction as effective as they are in an atmosphere, a 5,000 megaton nuke should shatter a destroyer in one shot, and yet a Sathanas shrugs of 5+ gigaton Helios (Helios>Harbringer) like its nothing.  Basically, I've never taken those numbers seriously, and regarded them as some game developer throwing numbers around.
Not necessarily.  We could make a case for the official numbers being wrong based on the observed effects not matching the numbers, but "big = wrong" doesn't follow.  I'm frankly not up for running the numbers right now, since I'm tired and about to go to bed, but offhand I'm willing to say a 5,000 megaton (or 5 gigaton) bomb isn't outside the realm of possibility for a tech base that has mastered faster-than-light travel and (at least post-beam development) has weapons capable of blasting a planetary surface clean through orbital bombardment.  Keep in mind that an explosion in space is not going to look like the big mushroom clouds we get in a planetary atmosphere and gravity field.  Also keep in mind that an omnidirectional explosive in space will waste most of its energy on vacuum rather than the target, so the actual destructive yield on target is unlikely to be anywhere close to the explosion's full power. 
"Courage is the complement of fear.  A fearless man cannot be courageous.  He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein

 
Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
Quote from: Scotty
Yes, it's hurt.  Yes, the bomb is reeeeally painful, but it doesn't melt holes in the sides of destroyers.
It doesn't, true, but I'm with Kosh on this one:  it should, dammit.  However, since bombs in FS don't do so, my hat goes off to the materials scientists/engineers of the 24th century for coming up with something that is miraculously able to instantly dump that kind of energy somewhere that is both a) not anywhere in the hull and b) not anywhere in the interior either.  I'm just going to call it Handwavium with a side order of Unobtanium.

And a 5 GT weapon yield isn't really that bad, although the Harbinger's mechanism for it is; salted fusion bombs in that kind of package aren't going to be generating anywhere near that energy ever.  A M/AM weapon, on the other hand, could do so (assuming perfect annihilation) with about 47 kg total mass.  This is an ungodly large amount of antimatter, sure, but presumably the GTVA has found a way to manufacture it in much larger amounts, given the proliferation of Helios and Tsunami torpedoes.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
Harbinger is M/AM, AFAIK.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
Harbinger is M/AM, AFAIK.

"Fusion bomb surrounded by 3 salted fission bombs - propulsion unit is a half-size version of a regulation GTA fighter thruster (Class II) - given the weight of the payloads, the missile is slow despite the power of the thruster - as the Harbinger is exceptionally large, GTA bombers are limited to carrying 6 of these weapons at any given time - the resultant shock wave from this weapon is potentially deadly, due to the size of the payloads (5000 Mt in total) - use near allied installations or allied ship groupings is strongly discouraged by the GTA - most effective when used in preemptive defensive strike against non-military installations.


The Harbinger is our best chance of destroying the Lucifer."
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
Quote from: Scotty
Yes, it's hurt.  Yes, the bomb is reeeeally painful, but it doesn't melt holes in the sides of destroyers.
It doesn't, true, but I'm with Kosh on this one:  it should, dammit.  However, since bombs in FS don't do so, my hat goes off to the materials scientists/engineers of the 24th century for coming up with something that is miraculously able to instantly dump that kind of energy somewhere that is both a) not anywhere in the hull and b) not anywhere in the interior either.  I'm just going to call it Handwavium with a side order of Unobtanium.

We were talking on IRC yesterday and realized that when the techroom says 'collapsed core molybdenum', it might literally mean 'collapsed core molybdenum', as in 'degenerate matter', as in 'good ****ing god how the **** are these ships even able to move'  :shaking: :shaking: :shaking:
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 11:35:57 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline Kolgena

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
Sure explains the 20m/s capships. (except not. Why wouldn't these things act like neutron stars?)

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
Harbinger... most effective when used in preemptive defensive strike against non-military installations.
GTA policy is to nuke civilians first! And those dirty Tevs followed right in their footsteps! Feds fo' life!

Nah, but srsly, that seems kinda harsh.
"Think about nice things not unhappy things.
The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

Hard Light Productions:
"...this conversation is pointlessly confrontational."

 
Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
The hulls being degenerate matter just brings up more questions, like "How the hell do they hold that **** together?"  It should just fly apart at those masses.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
Yeah it makes no sense whatsoever. But whatever, FreeSpace.

 
Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
Harbinger... most effective when used in preemptive defensive strike against non-military installations.
GTA policy is to nuke civilians first! And those dirty Tevs followed right in their footsteps! Feds fo' life!

Nah, but srsly, that seems kinda harsh.
Keep in mind non-military installations could mean things like shipyards, subspace communication hubs, and other vital pieces of space infrastructure.  It doesn't seem so harsh since your goal is to rip out the supporting backbone of their military might.  No wait, that is harsh, but war is supposed to be about making things harsh for the other guy.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
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[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

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[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems