[Shivan Hunter]

Again, good Sir, you are making HTL's the way they're supposed to be made. Mad props, Sir, MAD PROPS!

 

no.

It's pretty nice, in fact, it's way better than the original. However, I think a lot more creative liberty could have been taken, as most of the detail you can put into it from texture (at least, on fighters/bombers) would be more noticeable with good normal maps, and would be better spent improving the shape, smoothing parts out, etc.

And it's very good to see you again, peterv!

As annoying as Had-- can be sometimes, I find myself continually agreeing with him about HTL models.

Take a good, long look at the HTL Cain/Lilith. And the HTL Hatshepsut. And the WIP pic of the HTL Typhon [EDIT] here. Especially the Typhon. They change a lot. The Typhon changes a massive amount, and yet looks quite awesome. They don't stick to every last detail of the original model, and really, how could they? If you stuck to the original completely you'd just end up with the original.

The point of an HTL model is to improve the model. Make it look better. Make it look like it might have looked if [v] were modelling it today. And the original models had to take a lot of shortcuts, like the Typhon's tilemapping. HTL models don't. You can make a model that looks like the Seraphim, but also looks awesome by today's standards. Don't just model what's in the texture; the texture will hide it anyway once it's applied. Add shivan-ish details that actually enhance the look of the Seraphim while keeping the overall 'feel' of the ship.

In the end, it comes down to tha fact that if you showed me the two textured models side-by-side, and asked me to identify the HTL one, it would be very difficult. This is a Bad Thing.

[Droid803]

Except that people always go "Model the details on the texture!"

[Hades]

Except that people always go "Model the details on the texture!"

And those are the same people who do not model, who do not texture, who do not know what they are talking about.

It's the same thing with numerous of HTL models already done. The Medusa, the Ursa, the Apollo, etc. They have the detail modeled from the texture, and they are almost identical in appearance to the retail mesh because of so. The small details present in fighter and bomber textures will always be better handled in normal mapping rather than being modeled, because they are not only more visible, there is a bit less of a performance hit than if you had modeled it in.

Shape and smoothing should always come before modeled detail, for they are more noticeable, and we have normal mapping which is better suited for detail. Just because a model is sharp enough to cut a full-grown tree does not mean that the HTL has to be, for, in all likeliness, the retail model is only as such because there was no more room for any more polygons. Remember, FreeSpace 1 was barely playable on high with good gaming computers back in 1998, and while you may not think that a couple more polygons might have changed anything back then, it all adds up.

[mjn.mixael]

Wow... just wow...

He makes a nice model, a definite upgrade from the retail model, and you guys just rip on it saying it's not good enough. If you guys want every model to go the way of the Typhon (which we'll probably not get) or the Cain HTLs, then YOU give it a try. Obviously peterv didn't think it was necessary. Personally, I'm glad to have another Shivan fighter that doesn't have extruded triangles for its guns. Also, I'd like to see normal maps fix the guns and missile banks like that.

[The E]

Agreed with mjn here. It's a fighter, there's not much need to go beyond an extrapolation of the details alluded to in the texture.

Greater redesigns, as seen in the Lilith, Cain, Hatshepsut and the upcoming Collossus, should IMHO be reserved for the big setpiece ships, the ones where detail can be appreciated properly.

[Hades]

He makes a nice model, a definite upgrade from the retail model, and you guys just rip on it saying it's not good enough.

I never said it wasn't an upgrade nor did I say it wasn't good enough, I suggested that perhaps he might wan to take a it more creative freedom to make it look a bit different.

Obviously peterv didn't think it was necessary.

You're assuming you know what peterv thought. Just because someone does something a certain way does not mean they wouldn't have preferred doing it a different way.

Personally, I'm glad to have another Shivan fighter that doesn't have extruded triangles for its guns.

Personally, I never said I wanted to see that nor did I say I was against that.

Also, I'd like to see normal maps fix the guns and missile banks like that.

And never in this god damned thread did I say normal mapping would work for guns. I said it'd work better for most texture detail on fighters because it'd be more noticeable, I never, however, said anything about guns, which are more of a part of the shape than anything.

[mjn.mixael]

He makes a nice model, a definite upgrade from the retail model, and you guys just rip on it saying it's not good enough.

I never said it wasn't an upgrade nor did I say it wasn't good enough, I suggested that perhaps he might wan to take a it more creative freedom to make it look a bit different.

Obviously peterv didn't think it was necessary.

You're assuming you know what peterv thought. Just because someone does something a certain way does not mean they wouldn't have preferred doing it a different way.

Personally, I'm glad to have another Shivan fighter that doesn't have extruded triangles for its guns.

Personally, I never said I wanted to see that nor did I say I was against that.

Also, I'd like to see normal maps fix the guns and missile banks like that.

And never in this god damned thread did I say normal mapping would work for guns. I said it'd work better for most texture detail on fighters because it'd be more noticeable, I never, however, said anything about guns, which are more of a part of the shape than anything.

 

[Shivan Hunter]

He makes a nice model, a definite upgrade from the retail model, and you guys just rip on it saying it's not good enough.

Looking at the textured model, ignoring the untextured view below, what do you see that's different between the HTL and the retail model? The UV mapping is fixed, and there are a few subtle differences, but honestly I don't see any significant change. It doesn't look any higher detail than the original. It's not that it isn't higher detail, it's that the changes are not visible.

Sure, it takes much more work to do a real upgrade that improves the fighter, but a truly good HTL is worth that.

One more possibility: maybe it looks like an HTL ship with lighting applied. Can we get a shot with textured, lit models?

Anyway, peterv can do whatever he wants with the HTL Seraphim. Honestly there are ships in worse need of an update. I'm just saying that, when/if I get good enough to do HTL ships for FS, the seraphim isn't one I'll completely overlook just because there's an  HTL model already.

An excellent point you bring up, good sir. I believe that an emoticon is quite an elegant rebuttal to all of the points we're making. I capitulate to the more skilled debater; you have defeated me.

Sarcasm aside, I do think that peterv has done a good job on his model. I don't want to sound ungrateful; it's just that you can barely tell which model is the HTL with no lighting applied. Which brings me back to the request for a lit picture.

[mjn.mixael]

Huh.. I was pretty sure that emoticon was for Hades, but if you want it for yourself, that's cool too.

See, here's the deal. In the end, this is the internets where everyone is invincible and unbeatable, especially in debate. I'm not even going to bother.

The way I see it, if you don't like it, if you think peterv didn't do a good job, then you should just stick to using the retail model. The rest of us will see nice looking cannons on our Seraphim.

Like I said before, if you want every model to go nuts with over the top creative designs, then get your backside over to blender.org, download Blender and get to work showing the rest of us up. I disagree with Hades and laugh that he decided to continue an IRC debate here, but at least he is actually working on the Medusa to prove his point.

Now, (knowing this is a futile effort), let's stop debating and get off the topic of the philosophy of HTLing models and give peterv ACTUAL suggestions if you think his model so needs the work. If you really think you have a point to make to me and want me to consider responding, take it to PMs.

[Hades]

The way I see it, if you don't like it, if you think peterv didn't do a good job, then you should just stick to using the retail model. The rest of us will see nice looking cannons on our Seraphim.

I think you missed the part where we said several times that we think it's a good model, but that we suggested he take a lot more creative freedom, and never did we say we wouldn't use it.

Like I said before, if you want every model to go nuts with over the top creative designs, then get your backside over to blender.org, download Blender and get to work showing the rest of us up.

I'll use the modeling program I want to (Wings3D), kthnx. And I've already made a finished model with some creative freedom (Hermes) and I'm working on another with a bit more creative freedom (Medusa) and in neither am I 'going nuts with over the top creative designs!"

I disagree with Hades and laugh that he decided to continue an IRC debate here

It wasn't a debate so much as it was me trying to explain my point and you throwing ad hominems around.

[Shivan Hunter]

I have the IRC log in case it needs to be linked for posterity and/or posteriors.

Now, (knowing this is a futile effort), let's stop debating and get off the topic of the philosophy of HTLing models and give peterv ACTUAL suggestions if you think his model so needs the work. If you really think you have a point to make to me and want me to consider responding, take it to PMs.

It looks identical to the original. I think that's an ACTUAL suggestion.

Either way, I've made all my points and this discussion has gone nowhere at about warp 10 so until we get a pic with lighting I'm going to reserve judgment other than to say good job on the model, peterv. Don't think I think it's useless, in fact it probably looks much better with lighting, just that it could use a bit more improvement/upgrading in some of the shapes.

[The E]

Splitlock time.