[Scotty]

Cause the sun's presence, or lack of it, hasn't any bit of influence in your mood.
\

I'm sorry, but this is just flat wrong.  Sunlight, in the form of UVB rays, is one of the most efficient sources of Vitamin D, which has an effect on your general mood.  People with lower levels of vitamin D are found to be more likely to be depressed than people with normal levels.

[General Battuta]

Yeah wtv. The dude is saying that the climate in Finland is unproblematic, perhaps it's as good as say... ahhh... the country I'm living in... Portugal.

Cause the sun's presence, or lack of it, hasn't any bit of influence in your mood.

Wait I can't believe someone actually said that. That's not right at all - sunlight has a huge influence on mood. People even buy huge full-spectrum light panels to use during the winter to help fight depression.

[Shivan Hunter]

Actually, I thought he was being sarcastic there.

Either way, this thread is like QuantumDelta in one of his Pegasus circle fights: going nowhere, really fast. What are we even arguing at the moment? Causes of suicide or religion or... something about climate?

[Mika]

Now that I thought of it, I have actually participated in stopping a person of committing a suicide. He was from a very religious family, by the way.

He had got his girlfriend pregnant, and his family wanted him to marry her. Unfortunately, he didn't want to (just turned 18) and came up with the conclusion that instead, he had to end his life. When hearing about this, I was pretty peeveed at the religion and forcing it down on the peoples' throats. Why must it be prohibited to use a condom that would have prevented this so easily? I never got to hear how his family responded when he went to hospital.

By the way, when you stop somebody from committing suicide, be aware that they can get a different kind of shock where the person doesn't fall down and become unconscious. Instead, the person become unresponsive and immobile (might be sitting) with high amount of muscle tension - but otherwise appear to be awake. Had I known this, I would have called ambulance a lot more earlier.

So it is not about religion or the lack of it, but the social surroundings themselves. Religious types can be as bad as the rest of us. Even the darkest time of the winter doesn't feel that bad if the social surroundings are OK.

[Mars]

Religious people actually do have lower suicide rates. Places like Japan, South Korea, and the former Soviet bloc countries are largely secular, and also have, comparatively, perfectly good reasons to kill themselves. In the United States atheists killing themselves could easily be a result of persecution, or because the highest demographic of atheists (white males) also has the highest rate of suicide.

So you meant to say, people who merge better in their environment has lower suicide rates.

In wikipedia's list, the first country is flooded by catholics (79%), with only 12% stating otherwise. The third country is 96% religious. I have no numbers on Belarus, 4th, but from the text I would call it over 70%. Number 7 has 3% "non-religious people". Ukraine is heavily religious, Hungary accounts for 14% "non-religious" and Sri Lanka is also heavily religious.

So I haven't the faintest idea of what the hell you are bull****ting about.

And what the hell do you mean by "perfectly good reasons to kill themselves"?

Dude, I'm AGREEING with you. The science says that atheists ARE statistically more likely commit suicide, I was saying that that was probably for a variety of other reasons. READ what I say, BEFORE you start freaking out.

As for "COMPARATIVELY" good reasons to kill yourself, the depressed economies of soviet bloc countries, the culture of Japan, and South Korea is under constant threat of attack. Comparatively is compared to being an atheist in this case.

EDIT:

I'm not trying to flame here, I just don't know why you think I'm bull****ting anything. Look it up, at least four separate studies show that secular people have higher suicide rates. I myself don't believe in a god(s) so I think it's pretty shakey myself.

[NeoKnight]

The climate looks fine to me, I'd rather vacation than commit suicide here. 

The dude is saying that the climate in Finland is unproblematic

Your logic eludes me.

I was just implying that personal preference of climates is highly subjective, to the point that the comicality of imputing total idiocy to those who don't recognize the overly exaggerated level of importance you've assigned to the climate/suicide connection seemed deserving of an equally comical response. And you got one.

I have no idea where this thread is going now.

Ditto

[Luis Dias]

Sorry Mars, I did not understand where you were coming from. Apparently, it's kind of a problem in english, since others here also didn't understand the sarcasm in my comment about climate and mood. And Mika, I'm happy for you that you have that kind of beach (if you live there, it looked that way but I may be wrong). Seems pretty nice.

NeoKnight, you seem to think that the trouble of climate is merely psychodrama. It isn't, it's chemical. As others have said so plainly, the lack of sun alters your mood almost inevitably. You'll always find more suicide rates in northern cloudy countries than shiny countries, despite the adaptation of locals. And ooopsidoo, the data agrees with me. How about that.

[NGTM-1R]

I believe the term is Environmental Affective Disorder.

[NeoKnight]

NeoKnight, you seem to think that the trouble of climate is merely psychodrama. It isn't, it's chemical. As others have said so plainly, the lack of sun alters your mood almost inevitably. You'll always find more suicide rates in northern cloudy countries than shiny countries, despite the adaptation of locals. And ooopsidoo, the data agrees with me. How about that.

How about some elaboration here. From what I've read, said data varies as much as people's subjectivity on the matter. Is there specific set of data you're referring to (as outlined by a particular study or analysis)? If so, please share.

[karajorma]

I believe the term is Environmental Affective Disorder.

I've always preferred Seasonal Affective Disorder cause of the acronym.

[QuantumDelta]

"When we look out into space, we are looking into our own origins.
Because we are truly children of the stars.
And written into every atom, and every molecule of our bodies
The entire history of our universe, from the big bang to the present day.
Our story, is the story of the universe.
Every piece of everyone, of everything you love, and everything you hate.
The thing you hold most precious, was assembled by the forces of nature in the first few minutes of the life of the universe.
Transformed in the hearts of stars, or created in their fiery deaths.
And when you die, those pieces will be returned to the universe, and the endless cycle of death and rebirth.
What a wonderful thing it is to be a part of that universe, and what a story, what a majestic story."

What's not to love?

[Luis Dias]

NeoKnight, you seem to think that the trouble of climate is merely psychodrama. It isn't, it's chemical. As others have said so plainly, the lack of sun alters your mood almost inevitably. You'll always find more suicide rates in northern cloudy countries than shiny countries, despite the adaptation of locals. And ooopsidoo, the data agrees with me. How about that.

How about some elaboration here. From what I've read, said data varies as much as people's subjectivity on the matter. Is there specific set of data you're referring to (as outlined by a particular study or analysis)? If so, please share.

So you think all the studies that show SAD more prevalent in nordic countries due to lack of vitamin D (except for those who are extremely well adapted and /or eat lots of fish) should be scraped because they are "subjective"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_affective_disorder#Nordic_countries

May I ask you why I should even take your skepticism here more seriously than just a biased position on your part?

[MP-Ryan]

Suicide rates are much more closely correlated with how you live than where you live (in the geographic sense, that is).  Looking at suicide rates across countries for geographic correlations is only a statistically meaningful exercise when suicide rates are comparable across nations (given the wide variance in reporting, a significant difficulty) and the data is controlled for social conditions among its various demographic groups (a near-impossibility, given the variance in suicide within countries).  It's a pointless argument - there are countless things that are more accurate predictors than Seasonal Affective Disorder or potential vitamin-D deficiency (considering the direct link to suicidal ideation is pretty tenuous; while there is an undeniable link to depression, the magnitude of that link is up for debate).

Also, under no circumstances is Wikipedia an acceptable sourcing for debate.  Ever.  Useful for a quick, unverified backgrounder for information, sure.  Source - no.

/grump

EDIT:  To address the original comment:

Finland's suicide rate has more to do with its climate than with its religiosity, I think this should be ****ing obvious to anyone with half a neuron.

And the suicide rate has a much higher correlation to poverty, social considerations, mental illness rates, and social distribution/stratification than it does to climate.  The fact that the assertion that religion relates to suicide rate is relatively meaningless doesn't mean that suicide rate to climate is meaningful.

[Luis Dias]

It's a good enough source for discussion in these threads.

And the link that exists, tenuous or not, is far more reliable than the other one discussed before. Why does this link get such a beating while the other gets a pass is beyond me.

[Luis Dias]

And the suicide rate has a much higher correlation to poverty, social considerations, mental illness rates, and social distribution/stratification than it does to climate.

Curious that you flame me for providing a wiki link, but you yourself provide none for your assertions... hmmmm .

[General Battuta]

And the suicide rate has a much higher correlation to poverty, social considerations, mental illness rates, and social distribution/stratification than it does to climate.

Curious that you flame me for providing a wiki link, but you yourself provide none for your assertions... hmmmm .

yeah i really don't think you get who you're talking to

[MP-Ryan]

It's a good enough source for discussion in these threads.

I beg to differ.  Bringing up climate overshadows the much more significant (and frequently misunderstood) causes and correlates of suicidal ideation and ultimately behaviour.

And the link that exists, tenuous or not, is far more reliable than the other one discussed before. Why does this link get such a beating while the other gets a pass is beyond me.

The link to religion did not get a pass; you rightly debunked it, but erred in providing one nearly as tenuous in its stead. 

Curious that you flame me for providing a wiki link, but you yourself provide none for your assertions... hmmmm .

That's not a flame, that's a chastening for committing cardinal sins around fact.  A flame would be a personal attack.  As for my sources, I'm not generally in the habit of quoting excerpts from the several Abnormal Psychology textbooks gathering dust in my basement or lecture notes saved on my home computer, although I can gather several citations from PubMed later this evening if you really want data for conclusions discussed in 100-level psychology courses.  Generally, I source material when asked (as you were, above, and foolishly provided Wikipedia).

And Battuta, while I appreciate the sentiment he does have the right to ask... even if it may not go well for him

EDIT:  Oh hell, here's some good reading from just a few minutes spent on PubMed.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21356041 (This one is actually Finnish, in an odd coincidence)

Here are the PubMed search results, since the titles give a really good indication of the available research on the subject:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=predictors%20of%20suicidal%20ideation

[Snail]

yeah i really don't think you get who you're talking to

Who the hell do you think Battuta is?!!

[NGTM-1R]

Who the hell do you think Battuta is?!!

Screw Batts. This is MPRyan.

[QuantumDelta]

..That so went over your head :<