Author Topic: OT-Religion...  (Read 138417 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Zeronet

  • Hanger Man
  • 29
These days its white people who get all the stick.
Got Ether?

 

Offline Corsair

  • Gull Wings Rule
  • 29
Yeah, like I said, the BIBLE CAN SUPPORT ANY POINT OF VIEW! NAZI, CRUSADER, ANYBODY!!!!!!
And I think you're being an idiot. Sandwich is NOT being genocidal and I don't see why you think he is. Just because he's in the army where he has to be? Just to protect his country from people who are killing innocent citizens? So maybe it is racist what the bible says, but does that mean that people nowadays discriminate? Not really. I mean, come on Stryke! This thing was written over 3,000 years ago! And anyway, you are generalizing about a whole group of people! You just can't do that.

sorry if I took it OT btw.
Wash: This landing's gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: *shrug* "Oh God, oh God, we're all gonna die"?
Mal: This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then... explode.

 

Offline Zeronet

  • Hanger Man
  • 29
How can the bible be OT in a religious thread?
Got Ether?

 

Offline Stryke 9

  • Village Person
    Reset count: 4
  • 211
They're momentarily out of fashion in the bigotry world... people keep crowing about how they've eliminated what is to all intents and purposes an integral part of human nature, and it doesn't seem that most are even aware that it's simply that the mindless hatred has turned against its most significant historical wielders... I mean, how many people are willing to stand up for the rights of a white supremacist, these days?

People are sick. People are stupid. And that's all I have to say about that, except that I sincerely regret that I, too, must naturally be sick and stupid. like the rest of my failing species, and thoroughly unable to control it. Ah well.

 

Offline Corsair

  • Gull Wings Rule
  • 29
Quote
How can the bible be OT in a religious thread?

I don't know...:confused:
Ask Stryke since he knows everything about this. :rolleyes: But I do agree with him that people are sick and stupid. :nod:
Wash: This landing's gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: *shrug* "Oh God, oh God, we're all gonna die"?
Mal: This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then... explode.

 

Offline Stryke 9

  • Village Person
    Reset count: 4
  • 211
Corsair: So, saying that natural disasters that can kill hundreds of innocent people are a direct result of the politics of a nation those said people live in, and that the deserve to die because of that, doesn't hold even a tinge of racism?? I'm not generalising, I said specifically that not all Jews believe in this sort of tripe, and I'm not considering anything Sandwich did in any war. I really could care less- to me, the thought is at least as important as the action. In this case, the thought is that people deserve to die because they oppose his race. Simple as that- it doesn't need justification, it doesn't need defense, it's not an inherently 'evil' idea or anything- but it should be recognised for what it is, and what company it's in.

 

Offline Corsair

  • Gull Wings Rule
  • 29
Quote
In this case, the thought is that people deserve to die because they oppose his race. Simple as that- it doesn't need justification, it doesn't need defense, it's not an inherently 'evil' idea or anything- but it should be recognised for what it is, and what company it's in.
Who said that? Not even amonst all the racism and bigotry in the Bible does it say that other people deserve to die because they aren't "the Lord's people". And yes, obviously it doesn't have to be "evil" (although a lot of times it can be) and your right about what you said there. I just don't totally see where you're coming from.

And also, I didn't say anything about the natural disasters. Sandwich did and he would know better too since he lives in Israel. I live in the U.S. and I wouldn't know about the natural disasters.
Wash: This landing's gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: *shrug* "Oh God, oh God, we're all gonna die"?
Mal: This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then... explode.

 

Offline Mad Bomber

  • Booooom
  • 210
About the peace process: Both sides are too narrow-minded to see their own mistakes. And having Saddam sponsor the suicide bombers isn't helping. Not to mention the incredibly right-wing Likud party being in power in Israel. But that's beside the point.

The point is (and no offense meant to anyone here, I'm including myself in this) that people in large groups become less rational than they normally would be. If they identify something as "us vs. them" then the majority of people will end up fighting in it in some way.


Now back to the religion discussion:

IMO, I think that all religions could be true in some form. The human brain has enormous amounts of untapped potential. Perhaps when someone dies, his dying mind has one last giant burst of subconscious power, which somehow creates whatever afterlife he actually believes in.

I personally believe each person should choose whichever religion they think is right. Or to avoid them altogether if they don't like any of them. :)
"What the hell!? I've got a Snuffleupagus on my scanners! The Snuffleupagus is active!"

 

Offline Sandwich

  • Got Screen?
  • 213
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Brainzipper
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
sandwich: Are you denying you just said that you were, in essence, the ultimate race, favored by god and superior to all men, and all those who displeased you would get a rather vicious comeuppance?


Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
No, just that the kind of mentality where you consider your race and yourself superior to all other men, not beholden to their laws and conventions, and given a divine carte blanche to do as you please is what has motivated all of the most horrific hate crimes in history.


Ok, if I came across the way you descirbe, I apologize. To set the record (of what I meant to say, at least) straight:

The only thing special about the Jews is that they are God's Chosen People. They are not superior in any way, mentally, genetically - nada. They not only do not have a "divine carte blanche", but have more required of them by God because of their being His Chosen. Look back a few posts (or is it pages by now?) where I responded to those 4 verses. The last one I didn't quote in the post, because it was too long. But go read it, and then tell me that the Jews have it easy from God. :ha:

A semi-famous saying goes like this: *good Jewish/Yiddish accent* "It's not all that easy being chosen y'know! Why couldn't He have chosen somebody else?"

And as for anyone touching the Jews getting "repaid", so to speak - look at history. Look at all the nations that came and went, steamrolling over the Jewish people en route to world conquest: Babylon, Egypt, Persia, Greece, Rome - their status in modern times is minor at best.

I'm not blaming the Jews for wiping out those empires - I'm "blaming" God for dealing with those who touched His people.
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Shrike

  • Postadmin
  • 211
    • http://www.3dap.com/hlp
I hate to say this, but is status of jews in modern times all that major?  Really?  As compared to say, Italy?
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Corsair

  • Gull Wings Rule
  • 29
Sandwich! :yes2::):yes:
Wash: This landing's gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: *shrug* "Oh God, oh God, we're all gonna die"?
Mal: This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then... explode.

 

Offline Sandwich

  • Got Screen?
  • 213
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Brainzipper
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
Corsair: So, saying that natural disasters that can kill hundreds of innocent people are a direct result of the politics of a nation those said people live in, and that the deserve to die because of that, doesn't hold even a tinge of racism?? I'm not generalising, I said specifically that not all Jews believe in this sort of tripe, and I'm not considering anything Sandwich did in any war. I really could care less- to me, the thought is at least as important as the action. In this case, the thought is that people deserve to die because they oppose his race. Simple as that- it doesn't need justification, it doesn't need defense, it's not an inherently 'evil' idea or anything- but it should be recognised for what it is, and what company it's in.


I'm not the one deciding here - I don't control the wind or the rain any more than I control the hurricanes or tornadoes or earthquakes. God's the one in control of all that. So if you have a problem with how He decides to deal with people/nations, please - tell Him.
A big difference between the Jews being the Chosen People and others you've understandably mentioned - such as the KKK, Nazi's, etc - is that the Jews aren't going on violent rampages and killing sprees to get rid of "impure" people or any ridiculous thing like that. Most Jews would rather not be chosen, believe me. It's not all that fun.

Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
I hate to say this, but is status of jews in modern times all that major?  Really?  As compared to say, Italy?


I wasn't comparing the state of those nations to the Jews at all - I was comparing their status before and after they touched the Jewish people.
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline CP5670

  • Dr. Evil
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
Well, it appears that we are back to the absolute truth and the first assumption once again; that's good. :D

Quote
Here, check this, you might like it (it's the first article in english I found about it, may not be complete - all reference material I have is in portuguese):
http://www.cuni.cz/~peregrin/HTMLTxt/sl&fs.htm

And I did only minor work on it - my most extensive proof was of the semantics of a simple text-editing language. Proving the semantics of a spoken language would require more time that I have to waste, or anyone has to waste, for that matter.


I don't have time to read all of it right now, but the translation of ideas into symbolic language has always been a topic that I have some interest in. I'll check it out later tonight. ;)

Quote
If you can't convince 'em, confuse 'em, eh?


Look at what I said from a mathematical perspective; it is a condensed version of my first fundamental assumption.

Quote
THey are "common", but when you look at them occuring alongside Israel-related events, it's more than a coincedence.


Well, yes it is, because they are definitely common enough for any country to say this. As Top Gun said, in these types of cases, people only pay attention to and publicize events that are favorable to them.

Quote
As for God remaining secret? I never said He only uses natural disasters - and even so, why are they also known as Acts of God, hmm?


Never seen this god use anything else (if even that); either he does not have the power to do it or is not interested. Either way, he will soon no longer be a threat, if we assume he exists, since natural disasters really pale in comparison to the wonders of technology. :p (we already have the hydrogen bomb, but that is really nothing compared to what we will get in the future)

Quote
You want irrevocable proof of God's existance? Go outside and look at creation. Don't glance - look. Then tell me honestly that we're accidents. :rolleyes:


Simply looking will indeed give you such a type of view (the average man is quite ignorant, which is why religion is so common in today's world); you must carefully observe, analyze  and most importantly, theorize. Why cannot we be accidents? All it takes is one IRV and the rest is set off by chemistry and evolutionary principles. :p Although we don't need to be an "accident" either, but merely a continuation of a transfinite reality system. (too lengthy too explain in detail here, but I'll write about it in that book ;))

Quote
Hate to break it to ya, but when it comes to His Chosen People, don't mess.


And if I do? If he sends me to hell, I would be one of the lucky few who got a chance to go there and see what it is like.

Quote
Girls are good.

Mmm, girls......


eh...girls are just other humans, as far as that goes. :p

Quote
You need to brush up on your Nazi propaganda, my man- it all comes out to JUST the ideology you describe.


Exactly. I do not think that Israelis are the same as the Germans in general, as even most Jews do not have this kind of bigoted view of their race. All the rational people seem to agree with me though that Hitler preached exactly the same thing as what you are saying here about racial superiority and the chosen people of god. :p It is true that Jews have been persecuted a lot in history going back to Roman times, but this is no reason for them to be a superior race. And if it says so in the Bible, how can one tell whether it is correct or not?

Quote
About the peace process: Both sides are too narrow-minded to see their own mistakes. And having Saddam sponsor the suicide bombers isn't helping. Not to mention the incredibly right-wing Likud party being in power in Israel. But that's beside the point.


Yeah, I really doubt that middle eastern conflict will come to a non-violent solution; as can be seen in this thread, people will stick to their views without foundation, and so there is no way to convince them of anything that is not simple. If either side gets a Hitler-like demagogue, then things might change, but these kinds of people usually serve to strength the already powerful spirit of war in the minds of the people, because it is a very simple idea. (rule of popular simplicity)

Quote
IMO, I think that all religions could be true in some form. The human brain has enormous amounts of untapped potential. Perhaps when someone dies, his dying mind has one last giant burst of subconscious power, which somehow creates whatever afterlife he actually believes in.


It's actually not all that powerful; once particle-based IRVs can be used for input in the computer (quantum computer, anyone? ;)), we will have a generic human brain right there. These will eventually progress to the point where our creations are far more advanced than ourselves (due to many minds working jointly on it), and we can finally leave our bodies (including the brain) for a better system. Some will obviously refuse, but they will not become an important factor in history anymore, due to the technological darwinism principle.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2002, 06:01:21 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Shrike

  • Postadmin
  • 211
    • http://www.3dap.com/hlp
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich
I wasn't comparing the state of those nations to the Jews at all - I was comparing their status before and after they touched the Jewish people.
Actually, Rome has been important for millenia... it has only been in the last couple centuries that is has truly become a backwater.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline CP5670

  • Dr. Evil
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
Rome has pretty much secured its place in history with the massive empire it controlled. ;) (just like Berlin)

 
I just wanted to pop in and put in my 3.10832 CDN cents in.  A lot of the bad things that are blamed on religion were not actually caused by religion.  Religion may be an excuse in places (Crusades, Taliban, whatever) but they probably would've happened without religion, anyway.  Also, a lot of the good things that are attributed to religion were not actually caused by religion.  Religion may be an excuse in places (charity, don't kill, whatever) but they probably would've happened without religion, anyway.

It's my belief that any war (or similar situation) that appears to be based on ideology is not.  The peasants may believe it, but the people who are running the whole thing do not.

I'm a aetheist or agnostic depending on what side of the bed I woke up on, if you care. :)
"Vasudans and Shivans don't wear clothes coz they told the serpant to go expletive himself. :D" - an0n

:(:(:(

NotDefault

 

Offline Kamikaze

  • A Complacent Wind
  • 29
    • http://www.nodewar.com
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich


\ the Jews aren't going on violent rampages and killing sprees to get rid of "impure" people or any ridiculous thing like that. Most Jews would rather not be chosen, believe me. It's not all that fun.


Basically right here it seems like you're ignoring Strykes point, his point is that the mentality that you hold of being "chosen" (i.e. special) is quite arrogant and not too dissimiliar to various other organizations... it doesn't matter what the jews have done or not done - it's the mindset...
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Kamikaze

  • A Complacent Wind
  • 29
    • http://www.nodewar.com
Quote
Originally posted by NotDefault
I just wanted to pop in and put in my 3.10832 CDN cents in.  A lot of the bad things that are blamed on religion were not actually caused by religion.  Religion may be an excuse in places (Crusades, Taliban, whatever) but they probably would've happened without religion, anyway.  Also, a lot of the good things that are attributed to religion were not actually caused by religion.  Religion may be an excuse in places (charity, don't kill, whatever) but they probably would've happened without religion, anyway.

It's my belief that any war (or similar situation) that appears to be based on ideology is not.  The peasants may believe it, but the people who are running the whole thing do not.

I'm a aetheist or agnostic depending on what side of the bed I woke up on, if you care. :)


There is something ironic I was thinking about - the Knights that battled in the crusades were bunches more barbaric than their arab counter-parts - ironic considering the wars were based on ideological superiority... :p
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline CP5670

  • Dr. Evil
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
Quote
Basically right here it seems like you're ignoring Strykes point, his point is that the mentality that you hold of being "chosen" (i.e. special) is quite arrogant and not too dissimiliar to various other organizations... it doesn't matter what the jews have done or not done - it's the mindset...


That about sums up my thoughts as well as far as that issue goes. :) It is really not at all different from the NSDAP principle.

 

Offline Sandwich

  • Got Screen?
  • 213
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Brainzipper
Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze


Basically right here it seems like you're ignoring Strykes point, his point is that the mentality that you hold of being "chosen" (i.e. special) is quite arrogant and not too dissimiliar to various other organizations... it doesn't matter what the jews have done or not done - it's the mindset...


Ok, to be fair, I can understand that point. Looking in from the outside, I can see how it looks very arrogant, superior, etc. Point made. :)

Now try to understand my point: the Jews aren't superior because they are chosen - nothing of the sort. The Jews aren't superior at all. We didn't deserve to be chosen any more than any other racial group. It's not something we did - it wasn't our choice - it was God's choice. He decided, for whatever reasons (actually, that's a good question to ask Him when I get the chance - why Abraham?) to choose Abraham and his offspring. Believe me, the Jews want nothing more than to be just like the rest of the world - not chosen, not schmozen. They want their American McD's, their German cars, their Japanese bikes - anything and everything. But for whatever reasons, God chose Abraham, that through him "all the families of the earth would be blessed." (Genesis 12:3)

What does that mean actually? The primary thing I can think of is that from Abraham, through King David, Jesus was brought to the world.

It's funny - over the past few months we (my like-aged friends and I) have had a discussino on holiness, namely - what is it? It's not what is generally understod to be "holy" - i.e. pure, blameless, etc. Holy is separated for a purpose. The Jews are holy unto God - separated from the world. The Sabbath (get it right - it's saturday, not sunday! :p) is a holy day - separate from the work days. Etc etc.
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill