Author Topic: OT-Religion...  (Read 138792 times)

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Offline CP5670

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On the topic of thermodynamics law, I quite agree with Crazy Ivan. The second law of thermodynamics is usually stated vaguely in most places; the concept of "disorder" has no meaning at all unless you are talking about disorder with respect to something that is "orderly." A better statement of this law when relating it to the common minds would be that no energy conversion process can completely convert all of the energy without "losing" some energy in the process in the form of thermal energy.

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Well you need to know a little Bible history for that.
Since the Fall of man things have been getting worse (2nd law of therodynamics, not spelled right). Sooo that means the capability our minds are also getting worse. But for this you must believe in something called "Original Sin". Don't get me wrong. Adam (first human) was perfect...for a while anyway. Then he sinned so now we all are sinners.


I'm not even going to bother here, as way too many contradictory assumptions are being made.

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Too many questions. My history classes have left me with some sort of inherent desire to argue with people about history. Hitler wasn't the all-seeing, all-knowing person you suppose him to be. The Nazi state was totally chaotic, a confusion of private empires. Genocide wasn't Hitler's original plan, but a result of the failures of his other plans. If you want explanation of any of these odd beliefs, I have essays-worth of it...  


Well, the thing was that he picked the right people for his job. The entire system was based on a complicated heirarchy of ranks, and it was designed in such a way so as to be redundant; if one section of the Schutzstaffel turned on him, he made sure that the rest were all fanatically loyal enough to defend the party, and if some high-ranking political official turned traitor and starting messing up the party, it would not matter much as the seperation of powers ensured that no one man had enough power to do a lot by himself, except of course the Führer himself. (this was in the later days or the party; post-1938 or so) Also, Hitler made sure to select men that, if they must work together, would be ideological enemies of each other and would constantly fight amongst themselves, decreasing the chances of them teaming up on him. (eventually the fighting became so bad that he had to set up a mock court system, not to give any sort of justice, but that would temporarily silence them and make it look from the outside as if the party was greatly disciplined) One reason that the various attempts on his life failed was that the conspirators were poorly organized and were all at each other's throats the whole time; the only reason they had temporarily teamed up was that they all wanted to get rid of Hitler and thus had a mutual interest. Some men in the party hated him but did not have the courage to try anything, as the purge of 1934 had shown them what Hitler does to traitors.

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Plus there's the perpetual rumours about his sexuality...


The SA commander, Roehm, was a notorious homosexual, along with some other high-ranking guys in the party. :D The party leaders, with the exception of Goebbels, were all failures in their earlier lives in some way or another. :p

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Well, anyway, you can ignore what hotsnoj regards as the true nature of things, but the question is should you? You don't have to convert, but in the end, it is you who suffers the consequence of what you choose.


That is how I regard things, and the concept can be extended to the "technological darwinism" system. The social machine can subtly weed out the useless elements anyway, and freedom of thought is necessary for new ideas to come up, even if it means the existence of a hundred stupid ideas for every novel idea. ;)

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The man who willfully takes the life of another man is giving tacit approval to every murder that has ever been committed or that ever will be committed. The rapist gives his approval to every act of rape committed, just as much as if he had committed those acts. And Jesus taught the compounded guilt of those children, who, knowing the guilt of their fathers, go on and break the same commandments.


This only serves to reinforce my original statement: the god gives his approval for every act of murder, rape, etc. because he created the entire concept and thus unleashed this "sin" into the universe.

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I do not believe in God because I have not seen sufficient evidence to support such a claim that a God exists. Many people come to the conclusion that a God does exist because of things that seem to have no explanation or an insufficient explanation. This is called the "argument from personal incredulity." In other words, if it seems impossible to me, then it must be impossible.


Perfect, just perfect. I totally agree here. :yes: Those Bible things are really funny as well. :D
« Last Edit: May 30, 2002, 10:01:30 am by 296 »

 

Offline Kazan

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the second law of thermodynamics only applies to a closed system with no forces acting upon it. The universe has forces acting upon it just for reference.

Any force and do Work [Work = Force * Displacement] - there is no intelligence to Work in a physics sense

It is completely IRRELEVANT when it comes to behavior, and you should no better than to make such a stupid remark
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Offline an0n

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Might I suggest using the size=1 tags?
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Offline Kabal

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I do not believe in God because I have not seen sufficient evidence to support such a claim that a God exists. Many people come to the conclusion that a God does exist because of things that seem to have no explanation or an insufficient explanation. This is called the "argument from personal incredulity." In other words, if it seems impossible to me, then it must be impossible.


I agree...there is absolutely no evidence that a god exists. Ancient civilizations invented gods becuase they were too damn stupid to explain why something happened.
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Offline HotSnoJ

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If the universe is all there is then it is a closed system! And the 2 law of therodynamic says that order will decress. Now I can make order, but at the exspense of order that is someplace else. So I get order over here if only for a while. And less order over there (where I got the order). Now the second place has much less order then it would have if I had just left it alone.

I can also say this like this.
To bake a cake *yum* (putting some stuff in order to make it taste better) I take the order/energy of the fuel that powers the generator that powers my oven. But if I just turn on the oven I'm just heating the house and not really putting it to some other use (like baking a cake :D) of putting something to order (for a while).
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Offline Kazan

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Originally posted by Kazan
the second law of thermodynamics only applies to a closed system with no forces acting upon it. The universe has forces acting upon it just for reference.



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Originally posted by hotsnoj
If the universe is all there is then it is a closed system! And the 2 law of therodynamic says that order will decress.


perhaps you should proof read your statements


there are FORCES at work in the universe, for example - gravity
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Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Originally posted by hotsnoj
1 .If the universe is all there is then it is a closed system! And the 2 law of therodynamic says that order will decress. Now I can make order, but at the exspense of order that is someplace else. So I get order over here if only for a while. And less order over there (where I got the order). Now the second place has much less order then it would have if I had just left it alone.

2. I can also say this like this.
To bake a cake *yum* (putting some stuff in order to make it taste better) I take the order/energy of the fuel that powers the generator that powers my oven. But if I just turn on the oven I'm just heating the house and not really putting it to some other use (like baking a cake :D) of putting something to order (for a while).


1. Prove to me that the universe is a closed system. Have you seen it's borders? Can you prove that there are only 4 dimensions and not 10 for example?
Probably not: so currently there is no proof that the universe is a closed system
The rest of part one doens't make sense: in effect your saying that if you build a house at location A then, according to your voodoo law of thermodynamics, a house at location B should crumble. Sorry to break you the news, but reality doesn't work that way.

2. Bad analogy. Firstly, your oven is not a closed system and secondly, It doesn't really matter if you put the cake in or not.
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Offline Kabal

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The numerous contradictions and errors found in the Bible, the character and behavior of God as described in the Bible is repulsive, horrific, and obscene. Some of the stories in the Bible are simply disgusting. Look at the following:


Well, I'll take the answer straight from this site

If you were to read atheist's websites, you will often find complaints that the God of the Bible arbitrarily ordered the destruction of entire cities, just to allow the Jews to have a homeland in the Middle East. How could a loving God command the destruction of all those innocent people? The argument sounds good, but it is utterly false. The unstated assumption is that the people who God ordered destroyed were morally equivalent to the Jews, who replaced them. However, this is what the Bible says about the people who were destroyed:

"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Deuteronomy 9:5)

Okay, how "wicked" could those people have been? How about killing their own sons and daughters by burning them in sacrifices to their gods:

"You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)

The wickedness of these people is confirmed in other verses of the Bible.3 So we see that these people are not quite as innocent as the atheists would like you to believe. Then again, maybe those atheists believe that killing your children is not all bad. After all, killing viable pre-born babies is legal in this country (it's called a choice, a.k.a. abortion). For these reasons (and others4), God ordered the destruction of the peoples whom the Israelites dispossessed.

In order to maintain His righteousness, God must judge sin - everything that goes against His character. If God let everyone into heaven, then He would have to allow in people such as Stalin and Hitler. Obviously, heaven would not be a good place to be with the likes of those people there. Therefore, God's righteousness requires the judgment of all sin. Only those people who agree with God and are willing to allow themselves to be changed into sinless beings can enter into heaven.

For those of you who know history, there is evidence that the Phoenicians (the Canaanites in the bible) sacrificed their children.  You can go research this yourself if you really want to.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2002, 05:15:28 pm by 764 »
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Originally posted by Blitz_Lightning
Okay, how "wicked" could those people have been? How about killing their own sons and daughters by burning them in sacrifices to their gods:


Ah, so it's bad to kill your own children for your god, but your god is allowed to mass murder other people's children.  This seems a bit hypocritical to me.


Further evidence that god is a jerk:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought god said to "go forth and multiply."

Why, then, is multiplying (sex) a sin?
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Offline CP5670

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But why does sin exist in the first place? :rolleyes:

I detest sex for completely different reasons, but the idea of sex being a "sin" before a stupid ritual and perfectly okay after that is just nonsense. :p

 

Offline HotSnoJ

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Originally posted by NotDefault


Ah, so it's bad to kill your own children for your god, but your god is allowed to mass murder other people's children.  This seems a bit hypocritical to me.


Further evidence that god is a jerk:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought god said to "go forth and multiply."

Why, then, is multiplying (sex) a sin?


Sex isn't a sin that is if you only do it with you wife. If it is outside of marrige or before it is a sin.
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Offline Kabal

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i wonder how bill clinton was able to have sex outside of his marrige and not get millions of religous fanatics rioting
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Offline Anaz

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In my opinion religion is pointless...I will stick to being an atheist
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Offline Kabal

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same here, Atheisim Rules!
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Offline Bobboau

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I do seem to remember a few protestors out side the white house,
and hmmm,
something else...,
oh ya ,
he was impeached
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Offline IceFire

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Almost impeached.
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Offline Kabal

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he went to court but i don't think he was impeached...if he was impeached he would've left office.
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Offline Bobboau

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no he was impeached,
a common misconseption,
impeached means acused
so the republican congress acused him of... being a slut I guess, but he wasn't convicted or removed from office
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Offline Kazan

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they tried to impeach him for lying under oath
and he didn't lie underoath - due to the way the defined the term 'sexual relations' as strictly vaginal sex


[bobboau - they didn't impeach him, they didn't get enough votes for the impeachment - if there were it would have gone to trial]
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