[CP5670]

2. that's because those survival instincts are much less needed than in the old times. No chance of a sabre-tooth sneaking up to you nowadays... But I'm speculating that these reactions might still be much stronger in hunter-gatherer societies

I don't think that the animals of today really exhibit this either, though. I would assume that they would have some of this so-called sixth sense as well, seeing as they have survived to this day without any advances in thought processes.

Psychic senses and astrology are both complete baloney. They have been disproved so many times it's not even funny. If you have any halfway decent evidence, I invite you to throw it this way. Until then, stop spreading your lies.

I am inclined to go for this view as well, seeing as we have explanations that are far less contradictory and problematic than this one. (adding new senses when better explanations exist is just like attributing the unknown to this magical "god" ) Astrology seems even worse to me though, because it brings up a whole new set of problems that would not only contradict science in a number of ways, but would also go against what is observed.

For those of you who believe in a theory (Evolution).
Why do you believe in evolution? It says you are an animal and you have no soul. So you no chance at living forever, spirit wise.

You believe your thing simply because of that? And besides, science is definitely starting to move completely against the "spirit" theory in the first place; we have no more of a "spirit" than the closest rock does.

Okay, now according to my purple dragon theory, everyone can get to be the creator of him for a little while. Basically, the purple dragon finds everyone who believes in him and randomly chooses a person from that group, and determines who is his creator based on that. He is like the god, so he can put information into people's minds by means of telepathy to let them know that they are now his creator for the next 12 hours. After one 12-hour period, the cycle repeats but with a new person. He makes the god and the god makes the universe, but people take turns being the creator of the purple dragon. If you join in this faith, YOU can get a chance to be the CREATOR for the next 12 hours!

Religion and Science are like light and dark. Basically complete opposites, but without one, the other just doesn't seem logical.

I wouldn't really say that, because science can use the far superior system of philosophy instead. (philosophy not based on any of the existing religions, that is) As I said before, religion is just simple and emotionally appealing philosophy for the masses.

Children are influenced, yes, by their parents mainly. The parents simply want their children--sometimes--to follow in their footsteps. Religion is so important that the adults just don't want a child that will suddenly say, "Oh, I'm into some other Religion. Sorry. Suppose I'm an outcast now, oh well."

This is one of the things I absolutely despise about religion - the method in which it spreads. The children are vulnerable to just about any strange ideas at young ages, and once these ideas have been put firmly into them, the ideas will become the irremovable foundation I was talking of earlier. The children should be given a chance to think for themselves and build their own ideas until something more definite comes up in this field; instead, the children end up sometimes becoming more fanatical than even the parents.

Although I have no idea what this topic is about, I believe that there shouldn't be any religions. If everyone were to believe in the same nothingness, all those middle-east countries would be at peace and the world would be a much better place.

I think they will fade away in time completely, maybe in another millennia or so. The signs and trends are subtle but noticeable.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

and BTW, Bobbeau's Sister:



WELCOME TO HLP!!!

Emergency exits are to the left and the right and you can find shotgun under your seat. Have a pleasant flight.

[Kellan]

Originally posted by Bobboau's Sis
*wanders around aimlessly, totally lost* I must find a guide for this place..really. Anyway! Hello all, yes I'm a newbie, please excuse that, though. I'm Bobboau's younger sister, Kit.

Awww, it's Bobboau's younger sister[/i]! It's like a family affair, with him and her, Styxx and Levythan...oh, and thanks for the compliment.

Originally posted by CP5670
Astrology seems even worse to me though, because it brings up a whole new set of problems that would not only contradict science in a number of ways, but would also go against what is observed.

Perhaps from a scientific perspective astrology is worse, but from a moral perspective I find it far more agreeable. For example, nobody has ever fought wars over the tides of the moon (song reference ) and wEvil is making his points to fairly adult people who can make their own choices about the value of his claims.

Basically he's not forcing it on anyone - he has an individual set of beliefs. I don't think that you can stop anyone from having these personally - it's a fundamental human right. However, at the same time people should not be forcing their belief onto others - or to some extent even putting it out in the public domain - because that interferes with the internal beliefs of others.

Originally posted by CP5670
This is one of the things I absolutely despise about religion - the method in which it spreads. The children are vulnerable to just about any strange ideas at young ages, and once these ideas have been put firmly into them, the ideas will become the irremovable foundation I was talking of earlier. The children should be given a chance to think for themselves and build their own ideas until something more definite comes up in this field; instead, the children end up sometimes becoming more fanatical than even the parents.

Amen. And also, see above for my reasoning on this, or just refer to CP's actual quote there.

BTW, as a matter of personal interest why do religious people say that religion gives them free will? And what is it that makes the universe inherently deterministic or probabilisitic; where's the room for a form of 'natural free will'? What's to say that God isn't deterministic?

[HotSnoJ]

I got a question for all you unbelievers.

When all the true Christians vanish from earth will you then believe what I'm saying is true? Wait but by then you might be dead so you will believe anyway, it'll just be to late if you die first. Or if what (maybe not to the letter. So must remember Pual was a 1st century man given a 21st or better vision of the future) was writen in Revelations happens will you believe? But you might be dead before then too.

Bobboau's Sis you must not be indifferent! If you are a Christian you must fight all that opposes God, like this tread for instance. Though I must admitt I don't always do but I try.

[Blitz_Lightning]

Astrology seems even worse to me though, because it brings up a whole new set of problems that would not only contradict science in a number of ways, but would also go against what is observed.

Well, I have to agree with that... Astrology is based on what is seen in the stars... and since the light comes from the past, it is pretty stupid to predict the future with it!

You believe your thing simply because of that? And besides, science is definitely starting to move completely against the "spirit" theory in the first place; we have no more of a "spirit" than the closest rock does.

Ever heard of an NDE (near death experience)? From information from this site ,
A 1982 Gallup Poll estimated that at least eight million adults in the US alone have had an NDE; the figure is now believed to be closer to thirteen million.

From other sources and research, it is estimated that the percentage of people who had been near death was 35--40%.

There is a pattern in NDEs.
-Feeling that the "self" has left the body and is hovering overhead. The person may later be able to describe who was where and what happened, sometimes in detail.
-Moving through a dark space or tunnel.
-Experiencing intensely powerful emotions, ranging from bliss to terror.
-Encountering a light. It is usually described as golden or white, and as being magnetic and loving; occasionally it is perceived as a reflection of the fires of hell.
-Receiving some variant of the message "It is not yet your time."
Meeting others: may be deceased loved ones, recognized from life or not; sacred beings; unidentified entities and/or "beings of light"; sometimes symbols from one's own or other religious traditions.
-A life review, seeing and re-experiencing major and trivial events of one's life, sometimes from the perspective of the other people involved, and coming to some conclusion about the adequacy of that life and what changes are needed.
-Having a sense of understanding everything, of knowing how the universe works.
-Reaching a boundary-a cliff, fence, water, some kind of barrier that may not be crossed if one is to return to life.
-In some cases, entering a city or library.
-Rarely, receiving previously unknown information about one's life-i.e., adoption or hidden parentage, deceased siblings.
-Decision to return may be voluntary or involuntary. If voluntary, usually associated with unfinished responsibilities.
-Returning to the body.

If you want more information on NDEs, just search using google.

From www.tcom.co.uk/hpnet/polls.htm+percentage+people+near+death+experience+poll&hl=en&ie=UTF8]this site[/URL] , there is some interesting poll data.

An overwhelming majority of Americans believe that God performs miracles and nearly half say they have personally seen or experienced one, according to a new Newsweek poll.

Eighty-four percent of Americans said that God performs miracles. Seventy-nine percent say they believe that the miracles described in the Bible actually took place, according to the Newsweek poll. Sixty-three percent say they know someone who claims to have experienced a miracle, and 48 percent believe they have experienced or witnessed one.

It is overwhelmingly Christians (90%) who believe in miracles, compared to 46 percent of non-Christians. Faith in miracles among Evangelical Protestants is 98 percent. And 87 percent of those polled said that miracles can happen to people of religious faiths different than their own.

About two-thirds of Americans (67%) say they have prayed for a miracle. Strong majorities of Americans believe God or the saints cure or heal sick people who have been given no chance of survival by medical doctors (77%). People who face death in accidents or natural disasters can be saved by a miracle, say 72 percent of those polled.

I'll just ignore your next bit, it is quite irrelevant.

This is one of the things I absolutely despise about religion - the method in which it spreads. The children are vulnerable to just about any strange ideas at young ages, and once these ideas have been put firmly into them, the ideas will become the irremovable foundation I was talking of earlier. The children should be given a chance to think for themselves and build their own ideas until something more definite comes up in this field; instead, the children end up sometimes becoming more fanatical than even the parents.

Mmm... Really now!?! A survey conducted by Dr Winfield Arn polled some 4000 new christians. What were the doors of entry to which they were introduced to christianity?

6-8%: Just walked in
2-3%: Came through the church programs
8-12%: Were attracted by the pastor
3-4%: Came out of special need
1-2%: Were visited by church members
3-4%: Came through Sunday School classes
79-80%: Invited by friends/relations (not family)

Interesting isn't it?

[Kellan]

Originally posted by hotsnoj
When all the true Christians vanish from earth will you then believe what I'm saying is true? Wait but by then you might be dead so you will believe anyway, it'll just be to late if you die first.

If all the true Christians vanish from the earth those of us left might be truly thankful. And if I'm dead, it won't matter to me because even if I end up in your hell, I'll have no hope of salvation (and no idea what salvation would be like) so I won't care.

Bobboau's Sis you must not be indifferent! If you are a Christian you must fight all that opposes God, like this tread for instance. Though I must admitt I don't always do but I try. [/B]

Oh, that's great. So you're fighting against our fundamental rights to believe what we want to believe, and forcing us to accept your view of events. How narrowminded of you that although I accept your right to believe in God and the resurrection, you won't accept my right not to believe in it - even if I'm not trying to destroy your religion. It's my life; as Sesq said earlier even if God made us, he gave us free will - so don't say that I can't do what I choose with it.

Originally posted by Blitz_Lightning
It is overwhelmingly Christians (90%) who believe in miracles, compared to 46 percent of non-Christians. Faith in miracles among Evangelical Protestants is 98 percent.

What a surprise.

EDIT: sorted out quote. Also, is it not the case that God is actually a moderator on HLP? Show yourself, God!

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by Blitz_Lightning

Mmm... Really now!?! A survey conducted by Dr Winfield Arn polled some 4000 new christians. What were the doors of entry to which they were introduced to christianity?

6-8%: Just walked in
2-3%: Came through the church programs
8-12%: Were attracted by the pastor
3-4%: Came out of special need
1-2%: Were visited by church members
3-4%: Came through Sunday School classes
79-80%: Invited by friends/relations (not family)

Interesting isn't it?

new christians, an in not grown up with it

[CP5670]

Ever heard of an NDE (near death experience)? From information from this site ,
A 1982 Gallup Poll estimated that at least eight million adults in the US alone have had an NDE; the figure is now believed to be closer to thirteen million.

Look, you are giving all these statistics, but no scientific reasoning and explanations. The reason I do not believe in any of this is that it introduces glaring contradictions with the most fundamental laws of physics, which have experimentally been shown to be true. The main problem here is that the person has mental links with other people; I guess you could explain this using quantum tunneling, but you would need a fairly large number of particles to convey these kinds of messages, and the probability, already being quite low, would geometrically dwindle down. (it would definitely not account for the effects, and we must look elsewhere for a solution) Secondly, since the subject matter is the spirit/soul/etc., I will assume that you are implying that this "spirit" has something to do with it. (let me know if that is not so) Where do these spirits go when a human dies? They must either stay with the dead body or evenly dissipate into the surroundings. Which of the forms of energy do they take? (thermal, EM, mechanical, etc.) How were these spirits created? They cannot have been there indefinitely, because the Earth's population is constantly rising, giving rise to new "spirits" in some way. If the spirits just spontaneously appear out of nowhere, where are their antimatter/antienergy counterparts located?

A much better explanation that fits in with current theories would be that the brain is prone to all kinds of hallucinations during periods of very intense mental stress, especially random input from the subconscious brain, which in turn assimilates information based on what it has experienced throughout its lifetime. If a person has been seduced into thinking that the purple dragon theory is the correct one, chances are that he will claim to have seen the purple dragon talking to him about his life being incomplete or whatever. Also, you are talking about powerful emotions, which is quite understandable considering that their rational brain is under stress, giving way to the emotional section, which is much more prone to pseudorandom output, to take control of things.

And eight million is not a very high number compared the total number of people who at some point lived in the US and did not have an NDE and died. Are you telling me that the god plays favorites among the people? It's either all or nothing, or something close to either end.

6-8%: Just walked in
2-3%: Came through the church programs
8-12%: Were attracted by the pastor
3-4%: Came out of special need
1-2%: Were visited by church members
3-4%: Came through Sunday School classes
79-80%: Invited by friends/relations (not family)

As I said earlier, these church priests are very skilled at mob persuasion - they cannot compare to the master, Hitler, but they are still quite effective - and can easily convince these silly people. Most people either use one of the commonly accepted religions or do not have a firm foundation on which to base other ideas. Those who are not firmly rooted into a certain ideology will go by just about anything they are told that once again, sounds simple and emotionally appealing. All of the choices you have listed their boil down to "convinced by the priests" at some point.

Now come on; lets have some more people join in the Faith of the Purple Dragon®©™ Who Rules the Universe Alongside the God®©™ With Great Justice®©™ But Sometimes Gets Into Arguments With God®©™ About How to Run the Universe®©™! Look at the great benefits! He may choose YOU next! Sign your brain up today! You cannot escape the Purple Deluge®©™! All your base are belong to us!

[Kazan]

Mr Lighting, your last post was one steaming pile of statisical bullhockey

that's called the logical fallacy of "Bandwagon" ie "X many people beleive this, you should to" - just because X number of people believe something DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE!

INFACT it can suggest that is' wrong if you know human pyschology


"Can you feel that? can you?!"

[wEvil]

Originally posted by CP5670

All your base are belong to us!

Rip the system.

Personally I find the neuron-shorting-out-due-to-lack-of-whatever theory more than enough to explain an NDE.

Having said that I do beleive, maybe not in an Immortal soul but at least that there's something there we havent discovered yet.  Whether it will wind up being Final-fantasy style 'Bio-etherics' or something even stranger, there are way too many people around with a sensitivity to their surroundings surpassing what can be reasonably accounted for by their nominal 5 senses.

But I beleive that science holds the keys to discovering this - religion would just deny its' existance entirely.  
And in my experience curiosity never killed a cat.

[Kellan]

Originally posted by CP5670

As I said earlier, these church priests are very skilled at mob persuasion - they cannot compare to the master, Hitler, but they are still quite effective - and can easily convince these silly people.

You think about Hitler way WAY too much.

And besides, he wasn't a great persuader. His oratory style, from what I have seen and heard consisted of shouting louder and louder as he got to the end of sentences for emphasis. All of the actual words were crafted by Goebbels. Have you ever read Mein Kampf? It's the most rambling, poorly-structured piece of prose EVAR. And it's a brick, too.

Goebbels is the master.

[Styxx]

Originally posted by Kellan
You think about Hitler way WAY too much.

True. He's a nazi! Kill him!!!

[CP5670]

Mr Lighting, your last post was one steaming pile of statisical bullhockey

that's called the logical fallacy of "Bandwagon" ie "X many people beleive this, you should to" - just because X number of people believe something DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE!

INFACT it can suggest that is' wrong if you know human pyschology

I completely agree there. I have said this many times: the human will prefer the simplest explanation, which is exactly what this "spirit" thing is. Why not just add in a god and a spirit to account for everything instead of trying to define things into an exact science and coming up with complicated equations?

You think about Hitler way WAY too much.

Hey, I am total WW2 politics nut. But Hitler has given us a unique opportunity in history to study the effect of an alternate system of morality on the masses, so I can make quite a few references there.

His oratory style, from what I have seen and heard consisted of shouting louder and louder as he got to the end of sentences for emphasis.

Exactly, and look how many otherwise normal people were genuinely convinced by the righteousness of his ideas, which would appear to be nonsensical to any rational mind today. These kind of techniques can be used to convince the foolish masses of just about anything with an incredible effect. This is what I mean when I talk about emotionally appealing ideas that are simple enough for anyone to understand, a category which every religion-based philosophy out there falls into.

All of the actual words were crafted by Goebbels. Have you ever read Mein Kampf? It's the most rambling, poorly-structured piece of prose EVAR. And it's a brick, too.

Yeah, I would agree that he was a terrible writer, and most people never got to the end of the entire book before they got bored and gave up. (and this was after a bunch of his colleagues had went over the book and corrected all the grammar mistakes and removed most of the repeated ravings) His methods of oratory were still a powerful force, though.

Goebbels is the master.

Goebbels was quite good at this type of stuff as well, but he was more of a behind-the-scenes type of guy who, as you said, crafted most of the propaganda ideas and wrote the speeches rather than actually posing as the popular figurehead everywhere like Hitler. (although he also gave some speeches on Hitler's behalf when he was occupied)

Goebbels, along with Strasser, was actually a big opponent of Hitler in the early days of the NSDAP and at one time even said that "the fool should resign from the party" or something like that. After listening to one or two Hitler orations though, he wrote in his diary that "Hitler can really make you doubt your own views," and became a fanatically loyal Hitler follower for the rest of his life. (and this guy, unlike the other party leaders, had recieved a sound education along with a Ph.D. degree )

Having said that I do beleive, maybe not in an Immortal soul but at least that there's something there we havent discovered yet. Whether it will wind up being Final-fantasy style 'Bio-etherics' or something even stranger, there are way too many people around with a sensitivity to their surroundings surpassing what can be reasonably accounted for by their nominal 5 senses.

I think that there are a lot of things out there that we have not discovered yet, but they mostly do not have anything to do with humans. (the questions of the human body will almost definitely be answered by the end of this century) I personally am somewhat absent-minded and am prone to disregarding this kind of stuff, bit I almost never notice someone coming into the same room as me unless they wave their hand in my face or something, and I can easily come up behind other people without letting them see me as well.

[Kellan]

Originally posted by Styxx


True. He's a nazi! Kill him!!!

You're the one who wouldn't kill Dr. Mengele for me...

[CP5670]

Anyway, I have started a new religion! Do we have any takers for the Theory of the Purple Dragon®©™ Who Rules the Universe Alongside the God®©™ With Great Justice®©™ But Sometimes Gets Into Arguments With God®©™ About How to Run the Universe®©™ ? This is the only true faith that has rational thought behind it, unlike those other false religions!

[Pera]

Originally posted by CP5670
Anyway, I have started a new religion! Do we have any takers for the Theory of the Purple Dragon®©™ Who Rules the Universe Alongside the God®©™ With Great Justice®©™ But Sometimes Gets Into Arguments With God®©™ About How to Run the Universe®©™ ? This is the only true faith that has rational thought behind it, unlike those other false religions!

I was the one who first had an enlightment, don't forget me!

[an0n]

Hitler wasn't a genius but he was clever enough to surround himself with people clever enough to make his plans work.......most of his plans work. The world domination thing kinda went pear shaped.

Goebbels was a master of keeping the populous happy, even when Germany was getting whooped.

Himmler was a master of keeping the peace using force and ultimately slaughtering everyone.

Jessie Owens was lucky he wasn't detained for drugs tests and never heard from again.

As much as Hitler was a genocidal dictator he was nothing compared to Himmler. Hitler just wanted the blacks and stuff out of the way so he could create a super-race (ie he had a decent, well thought out reason). Himmler wanted them dead just beacuse they were black/gay/whatever. He was a complete and utter Hitler-Youth, gun totting, jew killin, gas pipe laying psychopath. If Hitler was a small fluffy bunny, Himmler was a huge ****ing dragon with massive teeth, cyanide coated scales and bubonic plague laden blood.

[Kabal]

Hitler wasn't a genius but he was clever enough to surround himself with people clever enough to make his plans work.......most of his plans work. The world domination thing kinda went pear shaped.

Goebbels was a master of keeping the populous happy, even when Germany was getting whooped.

Himmler was a master of keeping the peace using force and ultimately slaughtering everyone.

Jessie Owens was lucky he wasn't detained for drugs tests and never heard from again.

As much as Hitler was a genocidal dictator he was nothing compared to Himmler. Hitler just wanted the blacks and stuff out of the way so he could create a super-race (ie he had a decent, well thought out reason). Himmler wanted them dead just beacuse they were black/gay/whatever. He was a complete and utter Hitler-Youth, gun totting, jew killin, gas pipe laying psychopath. If Hitler was a small fluffy bunny, Himmler was a huge ****ing dragon with massive teeth, cyanide coated scales and bubonic plague laden blood.

Lol...that is true though. Hitler wasn't so crazy...he did have a goal unlike Bin Laden or Himmer or something, but his methods were unethical and atrocious. He could've just told everyone he didn't like to get out of his country instead of killing them...he got what he had coming to him though, commiting suicide like a ball-less old fruit.

[Bobboau's Sis]

I don't really see what's so wrong with being indifferent, but oh well. *shrugs a bit* Religion isn't the easiest thing in the world to understand, anyway. I find it slightly easier to simply let the present take its course. The past can't be changed, so all we can really do is try to improve the present and preprare for the future ahead of us.(By the way Kellan, you're welcome! ^^  Oh, and thank you for the welcome and directions, Crazy_Ivan80!)

Anyway, I'm still Christian, and I still follow that religion.. Indifference just seems like something that comes almost naturally, I guess. Ah well, I have trouble making sense..ask Bobboau..

[Kabal]

slowly religion is falling out