[CP5670]

Christianity believes that the universe can be rationally interpreted because the universe was created by an intelligent, creative, and elegant God.
And actually, if you do a bit of research, the modern scientific method was invented by Galileo.

If this is the case, why was it used by Archimedes, Euclid and a number of other ancient scientists? Galileo sort of brought it to logical precision and formulated a set of rules, so he can be considered its "father" to some extent, but he did not exactly create the whole thing either. And Galileo is not a really good example as far as your argument goes, seeing as the Catholic Church was responsible for most of the misfortune in his life.

And modern science assumes that everything in the absolute can be interpreted in some way, including this god, if he exists.

It's like saying that it is not your fault for burning yourself because somebody invented the oven. It is your choice whether to burn yourself, so it is you to blame.

The inventor incurs a very small part of the blame, although he is much less to blame because although he made the oven, he did not make you, and both objects are directly responsible for what happened. In the original case, the god indeed has absolute power, including that of our own wills, and so he must take all of the blame one way or another.

Well, what do you mean by inherently deterministic? if I use the the definition provided by dictionary.com,
1. Describes a system whose time evolution can be predicted exactly.
well, since we can't predict quantum phenomena, doen's this mean that the universe isn't deterministic?

Not at all; this ties into the looped 5D universe system I was talking about earlier. If it is deterministic, it means that the same events can occur repeatedly throught the history of reality, thereby completing the loop. Better read up more on this before contesting someone's arguments.

Well, what I mean about multiple time dimensions is knowing the future. Us humans don't know the future.

Yes we do, to some extent. If astronomers detect a comet heading towards a solar orbit, one can predict where it will be after X amount of time with very high accuracy due to our improved conception of reality. About 2000 years ago, this was impossible; with the advance of science, it has now become very easy. One of the axioms of science is that we can eventually understand everything, and therefore predict everything.

Why is a being a sinner for creating the concept of sin? Please explain to me how this works. So if I invented the concept of a computer, am I a computer? No. If you think that hell is no punishment, go ahead. Are you sure you would prefer to go to hell?  

If sin did not exist, there would be no sinners. He is basically creating a whole species of sinners by creating this concept in the first place. Therefore, he is not only a sinner, but the greatest and most despicable sinner of them all. Your analogy is irrelevant, because the "computer" in the manner you are using it is not a trait that can be ascribed to human will, whereas the "sinner" is. You already said that this god thinks like we do and his a similar type of free will, so the characteristic can be given to him.

I have no big preference between hell and heaven if you only consider the loactions alone, since they both have the same benefits, although yeah, I would prefer hell because all of the other intelligent people who did not give in to this crap would be there.

Mmm... really? If all-knowing, being able to create the universe isn't any better than being a human, I don't know what is.

It is quite possible that in the distant future, the human species will be able to do exactly this with the wonders of technology. So much for the god's powers. (again, assumptions of science) We have already modified the Earth extensively to suit our needs, a feat which only 500 years ago would have been considered a total impossibility. Follow the trend, and you shall see where we are headed. We may well become exactly the gods that we speak of now.

Well, of course, why would God need to lie? He could easily make anything he says into a truth. Why would he lie if he could make it in truth?

Because he is a human. Why do humans need to lie? They have independent motives and these motives sometimes require the manipulation of people. This becomes more of an issue when lying about past events than the future, which cannot be as easily changed.

2. Christianity differs from others because it says, "By faith you are saved, not by works so no one can boast." It's somewhere, can't remember where, but it's there. Others say you can get to heavan by doing good works (deeds). Musilums even if they do good things thier whole life Allah can still send them to Hell. So they have no garenete of where they are going.

Now, the god has limited powers once again, because he cannot send people to hell and heaven as he pleases. And every single religion says that "faith is the way to salvation" or some variation of such nonsense. Also, I wouldn't really talk about the originality of Christianity, as it is essentially the same thing as Judaism as far as its philosophy goes.

btw.. the correct mathmatic distribution of a square through out the eqausion e=mc^2 is

e^2 = c^4 + m^2 + 2mc^2

Sorry to tell you this, but that is actually wrong, because you are taking it to be (m+c²)², which would give the m²+2mc²+c^4 polynomial, but the equation is (mc)² and not (m+c)², which yields m²c^4.

[Kazan]

yeah CP5670 you're right.. brainfart

[wEvil]

IMO there's science still doesn't understand -

Take the big push for a Grand Unification Theory.  We can't make Electroweak and Gravity forces Mix (or was it Electrostrong? can't remember).

Then M theory comes along.  And we find that the huge diaspora of String theories are actually part of a supersymmetrical equation.  Quite elegant?

What about other forces we haven't even yet observed?

I find it hard to beleive that you can tell someone is behind you just by the miniscule change in absorbed light, or the faint sound of their breathing.  

Call me weird but there must be some kind of 6th (or 7th or even 8th?) sense.  When I start babbling on about Auras or Atrology some people actually sit up and listen and others just go "thats crap".

I'm not an irrational person, I hope i've proved that in my previous posts.  

Now astrology isn't something that dictates your life, because you can do whatever you want to if you put the effort in, but what it does do is Affect you in certain ways that makes you more Likely to do something.  

Now I don't beleive that this particular system is in contention with either science or Religion.  

Science dictates Gravity as a macroscopic force...what if a massive body has more effects than just a gravitic one?  what if gravity affects us in ways other than are directly observable?  What if, as I stated above, there's another fundamental force?

As far as religion goes...well, could simply be a kind of celestial signpost telling us what God wants us to do?  

Either way, I can see i'm inviting a good flaming here but please try to just think about it before you excuse me from your discussion as some kind of 70's new age throwback.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by CP5670

One of the axioms of science is that we can eventually understand everything, and therefore predict everything.

the infamous Demon of Laplace....

[CP5670]

I find it hard to beleive that you can tell someone is behind you just by the miniscule change in absorbed light, or the faint sound of their breathing.

Call me weird but there must be some kind of 6th (or 7th or even 8th?) sense. When I start babbling on about Auras or Atrology some people actually sit up and listen and others just go "thats crap".

Well, most of the time people actually do not notice when someone is behind them if the guy in the back is trying to stay undetected. I usually recognize it when this occurs by the sound of breathing, which is distinct and noticeable, but people tend to stop breathing temporarily when they are in mental suspense (i.e. not wanting to be seen); if they are not breathing, it can be pretty hard to detect them.

Now astrology isn't something that dictates your life, because you can do whatever you want to if you put the effort in, but what it does do is Affect you in certain ways that makes you more Likely to do something.

I guess you could say that it has an effect on the way the brain  thinks, because if you are told for example, that you will do a certain thing, then this knowledge will undoutedly affect your choice later on about whether to perform the action or not.

yeah CP5670 you're right.. brainfart

happens to me every now and then too.

the infamous Demon of Laplace....

yep, that's where I got it.

The problem I would have is that logically if you added two energy values,

x+y=e

Actually, when adding two complex number energy values, you would need something a bit more complicated, but if you are sticking to real numbers only but including negatives, it would indeed reduce to x+y=e. As you noticed, four different values are possible for every x-y pair, but that is because every mass value can actually yield multiple energy values, and the math equation makes no distinction between the two. You would basically need two more variables in the equations that simply indicate whether x and y are positive or negative. I'll call these variables s and t, and the equation would become |x|×sign(s)+|y|×sign(t)=e, with the original mass equations turning into |x|×sign(s)=|m|c² and |y|×sign(t)=|m|c², the s and t designating whether the masses are matter or antimatter. Extending this to complex variables, you would need two more variables to determine the signs of the imaginary components, say u and v, such that:

x=a×sign(s)+bi×sign(u)
y=c×sign(t)+di×sign(v)

The equation would be the following:

Re(x)×sign(s) + Re(y)×sign(t) + i( Im(x)×sign(u) + Im(y)×sign(v) ) = Re(e) + Im(e)

(equation has been split into scalar form here)

We ought to team up on this; you seem to understand the physics, and I seem to understand the math, so I'm sure we could figure it out together.

To tell the truth, I am quite ignorant of relativistic physics as well at this point, even though I am planning to go into theoretical cosmology later on; I also only know the math part. (I know the classical physics stuff well, but have not really studied the SR and GR equations in depth yet) Just happened to have picked up that bit about the energy values somewhere.

the equations e=mc2 and e2=m2c4 differ only if negative energies and mass have any physical meaning. The reason why e2=m2c4 is the preferred version is that in e=mc2 a negative mass value implies negative energy (which can't exist, since it is scalar, not vector). Also, e2=m2c4 allows it to be solved using both matter and antimatter.

Hey, as a "mathematical physicist," they all exist for me; screw the real interpretations.

[Kellan]

Originally posted by hotsnoj

1. I most certianly do!

Excuse me, but does that not expose Christianity as ultimately selfish and narcissistic? The only reason that you believe in God, in your own words, is that he promises you'll live forever. Nobody else, just you.

2. Christianity differs from others because it says, "By faith you are saved, not by works so no one can boast." It's somewhere, can't remember where, but it's there. Others say you can get to heavan by doing good works (deeds). Musilums even if they do good things thier whole life Allah can still send them to Hell. So they have no garenete of where they are going. [/B]

Apart from the obvious logic flaw between the second and third sentences (in Islam you go to heaven through doing good deeds. Even if you do good deeds you can go to hell. ?) how is having to do good deeds a bad thing? Essentially it would create an army of religious people doing good throughout the world. That would be better than doing nothing, as your (1) seems to suggest is equally valid in terms of going to heaven.

Now I know there is the problem of what constitutes a 'good deed' - i.e. helping lepers vs. attacking the WTC...but on the whole a good deed is a good thing for everyone.

Oh, and what makes you think that Christianty 'guarantees' anything? I'm sure all the other religions claim the same thing; yet you do not have any proof.

[IceFire]

What about other forces we haven't even yet observed?

I find it hard to beleive that you can tell someone is behind you just by the miniscule change in absorbed light, or the faint sound of their breathing.

Call me weird but there must be some kind of 6th (or 7th or even 8th?) sense. When I start babbling on about Auras or Atrology some people actually sit up and listen and others just go "thats crap".

wEvil, I hear you there.  

Through science we know to be oh so many things that go on around us every day that in some ways we percieve and in others we are not aware of at all.  Heck, until a few years ago, nobody knew about all of the phenomenon that goes on above major thunderstorms (blue jets, and sprites) and of people still can't agree on ball lightning.

With that in mind I think we can almost say for certain that there is the potential for forces that we cannot detect (as of yet) but that impact on ourselves.

There's been of tests done on 6th senses and while some of it is absolute baloney, there are a number of slightly more credible tests that have been done and I have a personal fascination with them.

And the concept of being able to know that someone is watching you without being able to see, smell, touch, or hear them isn't entirely far fetched.  You could definately classify it as a survival trait.

The concept of an "aura" isn't all that hard to believe either...every living thing (and non-living in many cases) has an eletromagnetic field.  The only way for sharks to be able to catch their prey is by sensing the eletromagnetic field (because they can't see their prey during the last few seconds because of their eye placement).  If an "aura" is an eletromagnetic field or an extension of one that we don't know about yet....then its not entirely impossible that we could detect it.

Most of its conjecture, few scientific results, and of "hocus pocus" but perhaps someday an entire civilization of people will laugh at us one day for not believing in all this stuff....just as we laugh at the people who didn't think that gravity was real or that planets weren't glass spheres with Earth at the center.

[HotSnoJ]

Originally posted by Kellan


Excuse me, but does that not expose Christianity as ultimately selfish and narcissistic? The only reason that you believe in God, in your own words, is that he promises you'll live forever. Nobody else, just you.



Apart from the obvious logic flaw between the second and third sentences (in Islam you go to heaven through doing good deeds. Even if you do good deeds you can go to hell. ?) how is having to do good deeds a bad thing? Essentially it would create an army of religious people doing good throughout the world. That would be better than doing nothing, as your (1) seems to suggest is equally valid in terms of going to heaven.

Now I know there is the problem of what constitutes a 'good deed' - i.e. helping lepers vs. attacking the WTC...but on the whole a good deed is a good thing for everyone.

Oh, and what makes you think that Christianty 'guarantees' anything? I'm sure all the other religions claim the same thing; yet you do not have any proof.

In Islam Allah can send you to hell even if you did good deeds because he dicides if he likes yo or not. He could send you to hell 'cuz you pi**ed on his favorite bush when you were 6!

[Kazan]

hotsnoj- and this supporst your side of the arguement how?

[CP5670]

With that in mind I think we can almost say for certain that there is the potential for forces that we cannot detect (as of yet) but that impact on ourselves.

I would definitely agree with that, as scientists today are seriously thinking of a new "fifth force" that ascribes properties to particle. None of the fundamental natural forces discovered so far really have any exclusive relationship to large objects that do not apply to small particles as well, but the possibility still remains.

And the concept of being able to know that someone is watching you without being able to see, smell, touch, or hear them isn't entirely far fetched. You could definately classify it as a survival trait.

An electromagnetic sensor of some sort? It would be able to pick up other, much stronger fields as well though, which we know it cannot. If this idea is assumed to make sense, it would be more likely for a new kind of force to be put in, but some new questions would then arise, particularly on what (if any) is the force carrier particle and what particle(s) exhibit the force. (since we know all that all particles cannot, which would again be a departure from the other four forces, which apply for everything)

The thing is though, a good sneak can easily creep up right behind anyone without being detected nine out of ten times. The brain also seems to follow the rule of change resistance very closely when dealing with sensed information; even if the person notices a very slight pixel-size shadow movement in a place where there was no visual change detected for a while, it immediately puts the sub-conscious portion of the brain into a kind of "alert mode," causing the main portion of the brain to react unexpectedly and the physical body to quickly jerk. Same goes for very faint noises. The human eyes, ears, nerves, etc. all pick up much more information than that is actually interpreted by the primary conscious brain, and I think it is quite possible that some of it gets picked up by the subconcious part but not the main part.

I remain somewhat skeptical of this mainly because it does not work most of the time, and also because we have many other explanations that do not introduce possible contradictions as this one does and therefore are "simpler." However, if those all are shown to be inadequate, then we must of course fall onto this answer at least temporarily.

hotsnoj- and this supporst your side of the arguement how?

I guess all it is doing is saying that "Allah" is more powerful than "God." Not really helping to reinforce anyone's point.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by CP5670


1. The thing is though, a good sneak can easily creep up right behind anyone without being detected nine out of ten times. The brain also seems to follow the rule of change resistance very closely when dealing with sensed information; even if the person notices a very slight pixel-size shadow movement in a place where there was no visual change detected for a while, it immediately puts the sub-conscious portion of the brain into a kind of "alert mode," causing the main portion of the brain to react unexpectedly and the physical body to quickly jerk. Same goes for very faint noises. The human eyes, ears, nerves, etc. all pick up much more information than that is actually interpreted by the primary conscious brain, and I think it is quite possible that some of it gets picked up by the subconcious part but not the main part.

2. I remain somewhat skeptical of this mainly because it does not work most of the time, and also because we have many other explanations that do not introduce possible contradictions as this one does and therefore are "simpler." However, if those all are shown to be inadequate, then we must of course fall onto this answer at least temporarily.

1. maybe these things are old remnant from when our ancestors needed to rely on instinct and quick reactions to survive. The individuals wih the best reactions lived longer/were more succesful and thus had more offspring... Just an idea

2. that's because those survival instincts are much less needed than in the old times. No chance of a sabre-tooth sneaking up to you nowadays... But I'm speculating that these reactions might still be much stronger in hunter-gatherer societies

[an0n]

~-=! The brain works on change. Try staring at something for a while and see how well your concentration and focus hold up. !=-~

~-=! It's based mostly around past experience. If you've been taught to jump and turn when something scares you that will be programmed into your subconciousnesseeses defense mechanisms. If you've been taught to turn and punch, you'll turn and punch. Instinct is the trigger but experience dictate the action taken. !=-~

[HotSnoJ]

Originally posted by Kazan
hotsnoj- and this supporst your side of the arguement how?

Go back a little and you'll see why I said what I saiid. Da** Library Computer

[Ace]

For those of you who believe in a theory (Evolution).
Why do you believe in evolution? It says you are an animal and you have no soul. So you no chance at living forever, spirit wise.
Worshipping God out of fear of death is not true belief.

Taking an active role in life is what Jesus preached, helping others. It matters not if evolution is true or false, if humanity has or lacks a soul, make the world a better place. Preaching does nothing, take action to actually aid a person wether they believe what you do or not.

[killadonuts]

Originally posted by CP5670
That is the second purpose of religion: the purpose of government. This includes a code of laws and a system of enforcement based on fear of punishment. (hell)

Thats why we have executions.

[NotDefault]

Psychic senses and astrology are both complete baloney.  They have been disproved so many times it's not even funny.  If you have any halfway decent evidence, I invite you to throw it this way.  Until then, stop spreading your lies.

[Bobboau]

"For those of you who believe in a theory (Evolution).
Why do you believe in evolution? It says you are an animal and you have no soul. So you no chance at living forever, spirit wise.
"

did someone actualy say this and I just missed it, or are you just bringing this up to make a point

[Bobboau's Sis]

*wanders around aimlessly, totally lost* I must find a guide for this place..really. Anyway! Hello all, yes I'm a newbie, please excuse that, though. I'm Bobboau's younger sister, Kit.

Well, back to the topic at hand. I have to say, I agree quite a bit with Kellan and Maeglamor. Kellan, you're posts really are logical, and they make sense, unlike other posts I've previously read. I'll admit, I haven't read all the posts. (Is this topic long or what? ) Anyway..as far as Religion, I'm Christian, although I have to say that I haven't much gone along with the religion during my life.

I'd prefer to say--I suppose--that I'm moreso indifferent, overall. *sighs and glances off sarcastically* But my views are rather pointless anyway...Ah well. Off that odd little topic.

Religion and Science are like light and dark. Basically complete opposites, but without one, the other just doesn't seem logical. *shrug* I'm probably making no sense, and considering that I'm not exactly a scholar on all this Religion stuff. A lot of different people often have a lot of different views, but who really had the right to change someone's view on life, death, God, and Religion?

Children are influenced, yes, by their parents mainly. The parents simply want their children--sometimes--to follow in their footsteps. Religion is so important that the adults just don't want a child that will suddenly say, "Oh, I'm into some other Religion. Sorry. Suppose I'm an outcast now, oh well."

Alright, so I'm probably embellishing a bit, but who cares? It's not like it's something new on this board. All I can say it, that I'm pretty much indifferent over Religion. Whatever happens, happens, and I prefer being in control of my own destiny, life or death..

(Please..don't flame me for this pathetic post..I am a newbie, afterall..please?)

[Kabal]

Although I have no idea what this topic is about, I believe that there shouldn't be any religions. If everyone were to believe in the same nothingness, all those middle-east countries would be at peace and the world would be a much better place.

[neo_hermes]

Christian god is a OK!
Greek gods Hold grudges and get you back in the end by sleeping with your wife and daughters
Egyptian gods......
Every god on the known planet will forgive, curse you and put you some place hot. ok maybe not i'm just sayin sometimes they send you to a place of NOTHINGNESS or to the VOID.
thank you
live long and prosper
~Frellac II~

it's suppose to be funny you know  
gosh where am i.