Author Topic: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]  (Read 33409 times)

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
As far as story goes, Carthage made the kill list pretty early in the fiction viewer.  The dreamscape and discussion on bringing the Carthage down seemed important and very Laporte centered.

This is true, but I have to admit that this doesn't happen in an actual missions. Both Aristea and Delenda Est had preceding missions that set the scene for the big battles, whereas in Act 3 the set up for Her Finest Hour is given in the fiction viewer or dreamscape.

It didn't bother me, as I felt the story still gave me proper context as to why this op had to be completed in one mission given the narrow window of opportunity, but I do see where he is coming from on this point.

 

Offline FIZ

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
One thing I found odd was that Karuna was moving away from a battle group it had no business tangling with at that angle.  I believe another Karuna already had to retreat.  My point being that as Fedayeen, we were surgically inserted as part of a much larger operation.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
All this talk about the missions feeling disconnected makes sense from a certain angle, but I think you're coming at it the wrong way.

This is Act 3 of a 5-act story with multiple threads. It was released on its own because we were afraid development would peter to a halt otherwise.

It seems absurd to suggest that none of the missions in Act 3 have buildup. Mission 18 is the next mission in the Gef arc that began back in 'For the Wrong Reasons' and continued in 'What Binds Us' and 'Deals in Shadows'. Mission 18 directly causes Mission 20, the Kostadin Cell's last-ditch doomsday effort to drive humanity off Earth - an attack that's been foreshadowed since R1 if you were paying attention.

Mission 19 is the next mission in the 'mole/countermole' arc that's been running since 'The Plunder', particularly prominent in 'Deals in Shadows', 'Pawns', and 'Delenda Est'.

Mission 21 sees the player inserted into the ongoing broader war effort - an 'arc' that barely needs description.

Mission 22/23 are the next missions in the Ken arc that began in 'Ken'.

Does it feel disjointed to get just a couple more missions in each arc? Maybe. But we need to see how the Fedayeen alter each arc. Laporte has moved from a place of learning into a place of power over the war - but not yet mastery over herself. Act 3 is practically Laporte Strikes Back - she makes a decisive action in the context of each arc in which she was formerly powerless, but she makes no progress at all in the areas where she was once powerful: her relationship to Simms and to the core ideals of the Federation.

Everything in Tenebra is about trading humanity for tactical power and exigency. Humanity is subsumed by functionality and the machinery of war. The Fedayeen wingmen each develop as a mirror of some part of Laporte that's broken. The Masyaf is a ship populated by alienated shark people. They're the antithesis of the Wargods.

If you felt that Act 3 gave up something crucial about Blue Planet in favor of wild exploration - consider that in light of what's happening here. What is Laporte learning, and what has she forgotten in the process?

Even Mass Effect did that side story, so I don't really know what the fuss is all about.

Unless we see some kind of back-story thing that originally meant to tie the asteroid thing into acts 4 and 5, the whole Asteroid Incident seems pretty far-fetched.

I mean, uptill now we've only seen the Gefs using outdated civillian fighters, Acts 1&2 portraying them as fanatics with no refinement whatsoever with regards to tactics, ships, weapons, etc. And all of a sudden, BAM! they have a huge asteroid that can apparently do a subspace jump to Earth? and collide, leaving all life on Earth destroyed? Really? like wtf!??!  :wtf:

The first time I actually played that mission; I waited to see if the thing would actually jump...It was so ridiculous.

How can that asteroid even jump? Its larger in volume than any ship we've seen so far, It would require much more energy to jump it to subspace than from that puny Subspace gate and motivator (compared to its size)... I can also forgive the fact that the Gefs have a frikken Destroyer which has not been referenced anytime before...But the whole thing about "Fanatics/Terrorists using an asteroid to wipe all life off a planet" for mundane reasons is getting really old and ridiculous especially for a rich story like BP's.  :doubt:
[/rant]

dont get mad at me....

The only thing ridiculous about the idea of ramming an asteroid into the surface of a planet is that it doesn't happen all the time in FreeSpace.

Ahh, you mean the asteroid, right?

I'm not sure what the dev team was thinking, but from an outside perspective I would venture the conversation went like this:

"We have a nice model of a hollow asteroid."
"Can you blow it up?"
"Sure."
"GTVA would never use an asteroid to attack the UEF...that'd be too far fetched."
"Uh, ok, lets bring in a third party of fanatics to do that sort of thing. Fanatics always do that sort of thing."
"What does this have to do with BP?"
"Quit asking stupid questions. We have a model of an asteroid, and we are going to blow it up."

The Gef attack in 'One Future' was outlined since well before Act 1 ever released. They're some of the few clues in the story that the fanbase never picked up on or connected.

 
Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
What were the clues?
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline docfu

  • 27
Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
One thing I found odd was that Karuna was moving away from a battle group it had no business tangling with at that angle.  I believe another Karuna already had to retreat.  My point being that as Fedayeen, we were surgically inserted as part of a much larger operation.

Even more so to the point: Why does it feel like we are being briefed on a mission AS it's taking place? This was easily the biggest failure of the mission design. You do not brief your special forces on a major battle, then update them as it happens, then say "Ok, well, we waited for it to get THIS BAD, now go clean up the mess, and you can play with the artillery guns or upload the virus...do whatever you feel like...including capturing or killing the carthage...IT'S UP TO YOU."

It doesn't take any hindsight to see that this kind of mentality does not even remotely exist in any chain of command. If Laporte's squadron of special forces is supposed to be the game breaker in this mission, why did they wait until the mission was broken and there was only a 13 minute window to deploy the virus, gun down all of the major warships and then do whatever with the Carthage?

Major operations like this aren't planned in the 5 minutes it takes to read the briefing, there should be no reason that the player feels like "Oh, sorry I'm late to the party..."

Even with the assassination mission, Laporte is able to scan the comm tower on an enemy installation BEFORE the mission starts. There is no reason she shouldn't have been given a head start in the neptune mission which is FAR more important.

As for the Karuna turning a 180 and getting shot at from behind, you are exactly right. I've never seen one freespace mission where a ship needed to physically turn away from the enemy and increase it's distance before jumping out. Being that impossibly close to the Carthage fleet, having turned a 180 and burning away isn't plausible.


As for the "GEF" having been introduced in WIH, yes, they were there. But there is a huge difference between a bunch of random fighters/pirates and a religious fanatic who builds a hyperspace capable asteroid with the sole purpose of smashing it into the Earth. One is people thrifting and scraping to survive, the other takes a massive war machine.

Even then, that's not the point. The point is now...everyone and his brother is trying to take down the Earth...and instead of protecting the earth FROM the Shivans being the major story plot, or the GTVA, or the Vishnans, now we have the GEFs.

Maybe this was in Blue Planet's original design, but that makes the original design now faulty because instead of being a Space Combat Simulator BP is just whoring itself out to any franchise, story or style of gameplay that gets fanboys on this forum. We now have a capital ship simulator, a tower defense game, some kind of weird virtual internet simulation (Yeah, I remember when people thought there would eventually be a 3D internet, anyone remember that?) and a flying nightmare simulator. Freespace pilots aren't human anymore, they are tripped up implanted cyborgs that connect to the Shivan hivemind, or psycho killers who've fallen from the ranks of the masses.

This isn't a believable fantasy anymore.


 

Offline Shivan Hunter

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
It doesn't take any hindsight to see that this kind of mentality does not even remotely exist in any chain of command. If Laporte's squadron of special forces is supposed to be the game breaker in this mission, why did they wait until the mission was broken and there was only a 13 minute window to deploy the virus, gun down all of the major warships and then do whatever with the Carthage?

Major operations like this aren't planned in the 5 minutes it takes to read the briefing, there should be no reason that the player feels like "Oh, sorry I'm late to the party..."

A Fedayeen is never late, nor is she early. She arrives precisely when she means to. The Fedayeen planned to attack when they did; I don't recall the briefing exactly, but it's likely that CASSANDRA ran simulations of the attack at various times and selected the best time to attack.

Quote
As for the Karuna turning a 180 and getting shot at from behind, you are exactly right. I've never seen one freespace mission where a ship needed to physically turn away from the enemy and increase it's distance before jumping out. Being that impossibly close to the Carthage fleet, having turned a 180 and burning away isn't plausible.

When was this? There was probably a reason for it.

Quote
As for the "GEF" having been introduced in WIH, yes, they were there. But there is a huge difference between a bunch of random fighters/pirates and a religious fanatic who builds a hyperspace capable asteroid with the sole purpose of smashing it into the Earth. One is people thrifting and scraping to survive, the other takes a massive war machine.

Even then, that's not the point. The point is now...everyone and his brother is trying to take down the Earth...and instead of protecting the earth FROM the Shivans being the major story plot, or the GTVA, or the Vishnans, now we have the GEFs.

The gefs were always a threat, and they were always crazy ecoterrorists (at least that was true for Kostadin Cell). Even if I missed the foreshadowing that pointed specifically at the asteroid launch, it didn't come as a total surprise given who we were dealing with.

Quote
Maybe this was in Blue Planet's original design, but that makes the original design now faulty because instead of being a Space Combat Simulator BP is just whoring itself out to any franchise, story or style of gameplay that gets fanboys on this forum. We now have a capital ship simulator, a tower defense game, some kind of weird virtual internet simulation (Yeah, I remember when people thought there would eventually be a 3D internet, anyone remember that?) and a flying nightmare simulator. Freespace pilots aren't human anymore, they are tripped up implanted cyborgs that connect to the Shivan hivemind, or psycho killers who've fallen from the ranks of the masses.

This isn't a believable fantasy anymore.

I agree on the gameplay - Tenebra tried some crazy, out-there gameplay stuff and I happened to like it. I know not everyone will. I also know they're toning it down for Acts 4 and 5, so don't get your panties in a wad. I saw Tenebra as a kind of "hey, Laporte is in the uber-elite spec ops with tons of awesome tech at her disposal, how can we go crazy with the gameplay just in this one chapter and see what works?"

The "weird virtual internet simulation" is no less believable than a shared dream in itself, which is entirely possible with a system as complex as a Shivan computer and a FS2-era understanding of the human brain. The "Flying nightmare simulator" makes exactly as much sense as the Ken mission- aliens are ****ing with Laporte's head in insane ways, and not just the Shivans and Vishnans (though they're bad enough). If Universal Truth had been all calm and noneventful other than the Shivan infodump, that would have been implausible.

I agree somewhat with the point that Tenebra seems disjointed, since it ties together several plot arcs without having a very strong one of its own (especially since the bonding and camaraderie between wingmates was nowhere near as present as in WiH p1), but the themes it presented (such as: now that Laporte has become a Shivan killing machine, how will she deal with all this power) were consistent enough that it felt like a campaign rather than a series of missions.

I had a disorganized, long-winded conclusion here, but I'll just say that in claiming that Tenebra is not "believable" you seem to be missing a crucial theme that's been building up since AoA and is the main point of Tenebra (that is: how much "humanity" and moral high ground can you lose to ensure the survival of your species? Implications include: how much has the Council of Elders already lost to the Vishnans and how much has the GTVA lost in attacking their home system, how is this affected by posthumanist stuff like linking yourself to the CASSANDRA network (and Bosch&co becoming Ken), and how will it affect the Shivans' and Vishnans' designs, etc etc).

lol I use too many parentheses and words
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 12:55:35 am by Shivan Hunter »

 
Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
Even more so to the point: Why does it feel like we are being briefed on a mission AS it's taking place? This was easily the biggest failure of the mission design. You do not brief your special forces on a major battle, then update them as it happens, then say "Ok, well, we waited for it to get THIS BAD, now go clean up the mess, and you can play with the artillery guns or upload the virus...do whatever you feel like...including capturing or killing the carthage...IT'S UP TO YOU."

It doesn't take any hindsight to see that this kind of mentality does not even remotely exist in any chain of command. If Laporte's squadron of special forces is supposed to be the game breaker in this mission, why did they wait until the mission was broken and there was only a 13 minute window to deploy the virus, gun down all of the major warships and then do whatever with the Carthage?

Major operations like this aren't planned in the 5 minutes it takes to read the briefing, there should be no reason that the player feels like "Oh, sorry I'm late to the party..."

There's a few things you should consider here before you start damning every aspect of this mission's setup. The two most important ones being - 1) Given the speed combat in WiH tends to occur at, it is not unfeasible that the battle at neptune had been occurring for mere minutes before your briefing and arrival, and considering that in-system jump travel has been shown to last seconds at longest, it is also not unfeasible that you were out the briefing room door and fighting at neptune in another five. I'm sure the Fedayeen is intelligent enough to have kept your Ainsariis prepped and ready in case it was necessary to send a wing, so you're only "late to the party" in the sense that you didn't go in with the first wave, and 2) Ask yourself - why would you commit surgical strike stealth forces to the first wave of a mass assault, especially forces that cannot be replaced in a timely fashion? You're Fedayeen - not only are you the best of the best, you're part of what amounts to a paramilitary shadow organization utilizing technology and tactics far beyond the norm for for your faction. You don't waste assets like that by jamming them into a prepared enemies face - you commit them when necessary, and with proper cover so they can turn the tide for you. Say, cover like an enormous conventional push against said prepared enemy, which, as I'm sure you're aware, creates massive amounts of confusion, slowing enemy reaction times and allowing stealth assets to work with a bit more breathing room.

Quote
Even with the assassination mission, Laporte is able to scan the comm tower on an enemy installation BEFORE the mission starts. There is no reason she shouldn't have been given a head start in the neptune mission which is FAR more important.
See above. You're not with a squadron of gunships anymore, and you're not an asset to be flung stupidly at well defended military targets without support. The assassination was a wildly different sort of attack with wildly different stakes.

Quote
As for the "GEF" having been introduced in WIH, yes, they were there. But there is a huge difference between a bunch of random fighters/pirates and a religious fanatic who builds a hyperspace capable asteroid with the sole purpose of smashing it into the Earth. One is people thrifting and scraping to survive, the other takes a massive war machine.

The Gefs dwelling in comet farms and the like has been around since they appeared in WiH, and all it took to be aware was looking at the fiction viewer the BP team has constantly told everyone to look at. Whats more, the Kostadin Cell being crazy, well equipped, and willing to do stupid **** in the name of ecoterrorism has been in dialog since act 1. If you missed it, that fine, but you can hardly claim they came out of nowhere. On top of that, given how little is actually known about Subspace travel and it's limits, saying it's out of the realm of possibility for an entire society of thousands of individuals to equip a decent sized asteroid they've been living in for decades with one-shot subspace engines is kinda dumb. You're allowing your head-canon to overwrite someone else's storytelling.

Plus, and this has been mentioned before several times, the fact that no one in Freespace ever thought to just jump a rock into a target is kinda baffling. It would be ridiculously cost and time effective, even with how little canon information there is in Subspace drives.

Quote
Maybe this was in Blue Planet's original design, but that makes the original design now faulty because instead of being a Space Combat Simulator BP is just whoring itself out to any franchise, story or style of gameplay that gets fanboys on this forum. We now have a capital ship simulator, a tower defense game, some kind of weird virtual internet simulation (Yeah, I remember when people thought there would eventually be a 3D internet, anyone remember that?) and a flying nightmare simulator. Freespace pilots aren't human anymore, they are tripped up implanted cyborgs that connect to the Shivan hivemind, or psycho killers who've fallen from the ranks of the masses.

This isn't a believable fantasy anymore.

I'm going to address the second part of this rant first - the topics presented in Tenebra are actually pretty damn hard on the Science Fiction scale - most, if not all of it, has been in speculative fiction for years. Whats more, you seem to either have not understood most of them, or are trying to simplify them in order to make your criticism work better. If it's the former reason, then use the internet. You were on it to post, there's no reason you can't use it to educate yourself. It's much easier than complaining, and on top of that not using the wealth of information literally at your fingertips is criminal. If your choice of description is due to the latter reason, then shame on you, that's a terrible way to discuss a topic.

As for the first couple of sentences, it seems as though you'd prefer your Freespace as the same semi-mindless shooty space-sim as it was when it released - which is fine, Freespace 2 is an excellent game that did a ton of things right and there's no reason not to enjoy it. But, if thats the case, why come into a thread about a mod that has explicitly stated they're trying to be different and blast them for, well, trying to be different? The varied mission types and gimmicks are excellent examples of what can be done with the engine now, and most of them were even justified in the storyline, if that's your issue. But instead you seem to be angrily attacking Tenebra because of these different approaches, ranting about whoring and fanboys. That's not a great way to get your points across. If you feel there's legitimate issue to point out, tone it down a bit and discuss it, because right now you look like a more verbose Gamefaqs poster.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 02:18:19 pm by PsychoLandlord »

 

Offline Killer Whale

  • 29
  • Oh no, not again.
Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
LOJIK BOM: An asteroid of density 5.23 g/cm^3, volume 404 km^3 travelling at 2614 m/s (as observed on-scene) has a kinetic energy of 7.22*10^18 J or 1.73 Gigatonnes. (-10%: 1.6 GT). A harbinger: 5 Gigatonnes. Not to say that it wouldn't crack open a continent, but an asteroid of this calibre just isn't worth the effort to use in a combat situation. It's just as easy to throw an anti-matter warhead down to the planet from space.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
As for the Karuna turning a 180 and getting shot at from behind, you are exactly right. I've never seen one freespace mission where a ship needed to physically turn away from the enemy and increase it's distance before jumping out. Being that impossibly close to the Carthage fleet, having turned a 180 and burning away isn't plausible.

Delenda Est.  The Yangtze and the Indus both do it right in front of you.

 

Offline Crybertrance

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
-snipity snip snip-

Well, I didn't really look at it that way..It kinda makes sense now! :p

Btw, I don't really get why people are getting all offensive about the new gameplay mechanics and features. If Tenebra had Noemi flying with the Fedayeen and not have the new gameplay mechanics, it would stick out like a sore thumb. You are special forces for petes sake! You are supposed to do stuff that normal pilots can't. Also, haven't we all got outright bored with the standard FS mission styles and gameplay mechanics? The BP team imo have breathed new life into the Space Combat Sim genre...And its my earnest request that the BP team do not return to pure FS style gameplay...please!
<21:08:30>   Hartzaden fires a slammer at Cybertrance
<21:09:13>   Crybertrance pops flares, but wonders how Hartzaden acquired aspect lock on a stealth fighter... :\
<21:11:58>   *** The_E joined #bp [email protected]
21:11:58   +++ ChanServ has given op to The_E
<21:12:58>   Hartzaden continues to paint crybertrance and feeding the info to a wing of gunships
<21:14:07>   Crybertrance sends emergency "IM GETING MY ASS KICKED HERE!!!!eleventy NEED HELPZZZZ" to 3rd fleet command
<21:14:50>   Hartzaden jamms the transmission.
<21:14:51>   The_E explodes the sun

 

Offline Crybertrance

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  • Conventional warheads only, no funny business
Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
As for the Karuna turning a 180 and getting shot at from behind, you are exactly right. I've never seen one freespace mission where a ship needed to physically turn away from the enemy and increase it's distance before jumping out. Being that impossibly close to the Carthage fleet, having turned a 180 and burning away isn't plausible.

Delenda Est.  The Yangtze and the Indus both do it right in front of you.

Because its better to warp away from your target and make it out alive, than to warp towards your target. Not to mention, frigates take significantly longer to charge up jump drives (and to plot a safe jump) after a jump compared to fighters. Hence, it makes more sense to turn around and run, while prepping for emergency/crash jump rather than just sitting there waiting to get gutted my beam-fire.
<21:08:30>   Hartzaden fires a slammer at Cybertrance
<21:09:13>   Crybertrance pops flares, but wonders how Hartzaden acquired aspect lock on a stealth fighter... :\
<21:11:58>   *** The_E joined #bp [email protected]
21:11:58   +++ ChanServ has given op to The_E
<21:12:58>   Hartzaden continues to paint crybertrance and feeding the info to a wing of gunships
<21:14:07>   Crybertrance sends emergency "IM GETING MY ASS KICKED HERE!!!!eleventy NEED HELPZZZZ" to 3rd fleet command
<21:14:50>   Hartzaden jamms the transmission.
<21:14:51>   The_E explodes the sun

  

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
I know that.  docfu doesn't seem to.

His whole reasoning there is flawed.  "I've never seen this in any FS campaign, so BP shouldn't be doing it."  What?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 11:28:52 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
And its my earnest request that the BP team do not return to pure FS style gameplay...please!

I've yet to finish the campaign and distill everything before turning on my "judgement engines", but early as I am I can definitely support Crybertrance's plead in this. Perhaps consider the existence of *a* learning curve, but still it's great to have these amazing new gameplays and have fun with them.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
The Serenity in HFH is exactly where it is for a reason and if you pay attention to the dialogue and think a little it's not too hard to figure out.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
Reading this thread makes me sick. Singing praise at the snore feat that was WiH r1 and hating on Tenebra because it had the audacity to be FUN instead of force feeding you walls if text. You people disgust me.

Okay, I don't hate you THAT much but still... If this is what we have become I can see why people arequitting modding. People apparently don't want games any more but novels.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 12:59:01 pm by Droid803 »
(´・ω・`)
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
Acts 1-2 were not a snorefest.  They were just different.  The problem is judging any of them in a vacuum.  They are all WiH.  They should all be judged as though they were released together.

Acts 4-5 should be released simply as WiH.  Everything together in one campaign file.

 
Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
i'm sure the team are delighted to see you defending them by saying how much better tenebra is than the crap they came out with before
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline crizza

  • 210
Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
Hm...I like the whole BP-verse.
I enjoyed act 1, loved act 2, took some time with act 3 and honestly, this act is pure fun to play, just today I replayed the assasination and cursed the whole world, 'cause although I knew which transport was my target, it doesn't turned yellow, despite having the full signal strength, so in the end I just wasted the transport, which got me killed instantly.

 
Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
The target transport actually changes every time for precisely that reason.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline crizza

  • 210
Re: Tenebra: Blue Planet forgot Blue Planet [SPOILERS]
I knew that, I meant the fact that the signal strength gauge was full, but the transport which emitted the signal didn't turn yellow, like the game was saying: Screw you Crizza, not going to happen.