[Polpolion]

Which is fine, except Mass Effect and TES games start with a male archetype, even for female characters.  It's not jarring for men to play, because we're used to the male archetype.  Get a female friend of yours to play, though, and see if she is satisfied with those characters as believable females.  Your dialogue options are constrained, remember.

Actually, I found that TES: Morrowind has a nice selection of dialogue options. I think you could play a fairly believable female character if you chose to. Other TES games either don't give the player character any characterization at all (Arena and Dagerfall, you can hardly talk about archetypes when about the only thing you can do is ask for directions or quests) or almost completely railroad him/her (Oblivion) in each quest. I don't know about Skyrim, haven't gotten to it yet. Also, Morrowind is interesting in that if features at least one awkward moment regardless of your character's gender. If you're female, then an ancient hero comes off as a transsexual, if you're male, one character comes off as bisexual. Also, in neither case it's jarring, let's say that this kind of thing could be expected form both of them. Also, Shivering Isles (Oblivion's expansion) seems to assume you're female in some minor dialogue, though this might as well be a bug.
Agreed about ME, since it does give Shepard much more characterization, though I can't say I haven't met women who would act like that.

I don't think the nice/jerk dichotomy constitutes believable difference in gender behaviors, which is generally the extent of dialogue options you have in these games. Granted, it's been a while since I've bothered with any of these games so my memory may be off and/or my views may not represent the modern industry (though reading this thread I wouldn't count on it).

[Phantom Hoover]

morrowind... barely had characters at all, let alone male and female ones. also don't forget, vivec's a hermaphrodite!

[Ghostavo]

To me, the eye opener for sexism in games / players is possibly the last part of the original metroid.

You watch the character take her suit off and you are surprised to find she's female. The creators made it on purpose so you'd be surprised, and you actually are surprised and now you'll probably feel bad about it because of the implicit assumption that the strong character had to be a male one.

[karajorma]

I'd say Morrigan from the first Dragon Age came off as a believable female. She had an agenda of her own rather than simply wanting to do whatever the player wanted to do. She didn't fall into any of the tropes mentioned, she was never the damsel in distress or guy with boobs.

Of course the game designers ruined it by sticking her in a costume with her boobs hanging out, but seeing as the first thing you'll probably do is upgrade her to a better set of wizards robes, even that isn't an issue for long.

[MatthTheGeek]

How about Alyx Vance.

[General Battuta]

Alyx is sort of interesting but would be a lot better if she weren't written as a prop for the player's ego.

[BritishShivans]

Or if Gordon Freeman was an actual character. Rendering the player character a mute means you lose a fair bit of interaction NPC's could have with the player. Sure, not all of it; but you still lose a fair bit.

[NGTM-1R]

I don't think the nice/jerk dichotomy constitutes believable difference in gender behaviors, which is generally the extent of dialogue options you have in these games. Granted, it's been a while since I've bothered with any of these games so my memory may be off and/or my views may not represent the modern industry (though reading this thread I wouldn't count on it).

Given that the male and female characters in something like Mass Effect emerge from identical backgrounds and progress through identical stories, I'd find it even less believable if they behaved radically different.

A truly sustainable case for this issue is probably best built around the in-game romances and how they're written as they mark the major separation of gender within the context of the game's world. (It will still be uncomplimentary I expect but I haven't exactly sat down and played in awhile either, so.)

[deathfun]

I just said I cannot think of any games I've played with believable female characters of depth

...Uh... I know...
That's why I'm asking you to elaborate on what you believe to be something that is believable (to you)
I don't want to presume to know what you think is all

Get a female friend of yours to play, though, and see if she is satisfied with those characters as believable females

Funny you say that, but a female friend of mine adores this game
Several actually
Haven't asked about believable females though, but what's believable in a world that isn't ours? Yeah there's a lot of games that take place within our Universe (that is to say Earth) but as with things changing as they do culture wise, who is to say what is and what isn't believable at that time?

But that's just arguing semantics

Carry on

[The E]

Games with good female characters, well....

Dragon Age 2 and Red Dead Redemption would top the list for me. I would love to include Mirror's Edge in this as well, but Faith's and her sister's characters are rather ill-defined as it is.

[Phantom Hoover]

I don't think the nice/jerk dichotomy constitutes believable difference in gender behaviors, which is generally the extent of dialogue options you have in these games. Granted, it's been a while since I've bothered with any of these games so my memory may be off and/or my views may not represent the modern industry (though reading this thread I wouldn't count on it).

Given that the male and female characters in something like Mass Effect emerge from identical backgrounds and progress through identical stories, I'd find it even less believable if they behaved radically different.

So... you're not writing believable female characters if they're the same as the male ones; but you're also not writing believable female characters if they're different from the male ones?

[Gray113]

Games with good female characters, well....

Hecuba from Nox was pretty freaking amazing....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qP5ici6B5g

Edit I was cheering when she killed Horrendus even though I had played as a warrior first time (Note to anyone who plays this game the warrior path sucks)

[NGTM-1R]

So... you're not writing believable female characters if they're the same as the male ones; but you're also not writing believable female characters if they're different from the male ones?

I should really just call you a dumb troll and move on, because I never actually espoused the second half of that anywhere in the thread, or perhaps play this for comedy like Battman did with a similar situation. Or I could mock you for not understanding that I'm very deliberately making a referent to only one Mass Effect character and possibly anyone who comes from a similar background.

But I'll do you the courtesy of a serious reply.

N7 is painted on Shepard's armor. It is an open statement of a lifetime spent in military service of a very intensive, very invasive variety. That N7 will result in a uniformity of thought and behavior well beyond the norm, one that will flatten the range of possible responses hugely. Writing Shepard very differently based on gender would probably be a mistake.

(As for the other characters the only one I thought it really openly mattered they were female was Samara's post-killing-Morinith period, but that's not the same thing as the others being well or badly written; I 'd have to play the games again to offer an opinion on the other characters.)

[Ghostavo]

Games with good female characters, well....

Hecuba from Nox was pretty freaking amazing....

Play the Wizard's path and say that again...

[Phantom Hoover]

So... you're not writing believable female characters if they're the same as the male ones; but you're also not writing believable female characters if they're different from the male ones?

I should really just call you a dumb troll and move on, because I never actually espoused the second half of that anywhere in the thread, or perhaps play this for comedy like Battman did with a similar situation. Or I could mock you for not understanding that I'm very deliberately making a referent to only one Mass Effect character and possibly anyone who comes from a similar background.

But I'll do you the courtesy of a serious reply.

You needn't have bothered, if you feel the need to be this smugly disingenuous.

[Gray113]

The endings in Nox were all a bit ambiguous. For the wizard path she lost her memories and seamed to have lost her powers but that doesn't mean anything with regards to sexism. In the game itself she was portrayed as an unmatched supervillan concentrating more on the fact that she was a evil necromancer rather than a female. Although her tendency to slaughter male dominated societies (warriors/wizards) did seam to me to be making a bit of a feminist statement

[NGTM-1R]

You needn't have bothered, if you feel the need to be this smugly disingenuous.

I thought you'd appreciate that sort of thing. It's basically your schtick.

[Phantom Hoover]

????? I make one post commenting on an apparent inconsistency in your evaluation of the portrayal of female characters in games (which I think is probably right, on the whole) and suddenly you have this burning personal hatred of me?

[Hammer of HLP 0wnage]

Since neither of you can remain polite, you're both getting all your posts moderated for the next couple of days.

[Lorric]

Wait a minute please, Mr. Hammer. I don't see anything wrong on the part of PhantomHoover in these posts, unless there's something from another thread. He seems perfectly reasonable to me, especially under the circumstances.

Don't hit me please, Mr. Hammer!

morrowind... barely had characters at all, let alone male and female ones. also don't forget, vivec's a hermaphrodite!

I don't think the nice/jerk dichotomy constitutes believable difference in gender behaviors, which is generally the extent of dialogue options you have in these games. Granted, it's been a while since I've bothered with any of these games so my memory may be off and/or my views may not represent the modern industry (though reading this thread I wouldn't count on it).

Given that the male and female characters in something like Mass Effect emerge from identical backgrounds and progress through identical stories, I'd find it even less believable if they behaved radically different.

So... you're not writing believable female characters if they're the same as the male ones; but you're also not writing believable female characters if they're different from the male ones?

So... you're not writing believable female characters if they're the same as the male ones; but you're also not writing believable female characters if they're different from the male ones?

I should really just call you a dumb troll and move on, because I never actually espoused the second half of that anywhere in the thread, or perhaps play this for comedy like Battman did with a similar situation. Or I could mock you for not understanding that I'm very deliberately making a referent to only one Mass Effect character and possibly anyone who comes from a similar background.

But I'll do you the courtesy of a serious reply.

You needn't have bothered, if you feel the need to be this smugly disingenuous.

????? I make one post commenting on an apparent inconsistency in your evaluation of the portrayal of female characters in games (which I think is probably right, on the whole) and suddenly you have this burning personal hatred of me?