[Phantom Hoover]

Yep, what NGTM is missing is that the definition of 'win condition' in FS2 undergoes a sickening downwards spiral, from "eradicate the Shivans in their own space" eventually to "get as many civilians as we can out of one of our core systems before we blow the nodes" and finally "just... hope the Shivans don't come back and that we can maybe get back to Earth".

[General Battuta]

I think the last moment of FS2 is a brilliant formal touch because it even removes the one universal minimal win condition of forced fail missions past.

[Mara_uder]

Heya all.
Here is another angle:
After You finished FS1, how did You feel about it?.
I felt along the lines of: Cool game, I kind off knew its going to end up well. Bummer about homeworlds, but if they make another one, we will prolly get back to Earth.
If they don't make FS2, its ok, I will live.
And how did You felt after FS2?
I was , and after 15 years still em ( got FS2 in December 1999) dying to get the answers to so many questions. Game was finished, we survived, but WTF.
I can't f****ng wait for next one. ( They killed FS, You basterds ).
Did any other game made You feel even remotely same way?
My answer is FS2 , all da way, hands down, no contest, superior to FS1 just for that.
My favorite game of all times btw.

[Snarks]

Overall, I think FS2 had a better story than FS1. However, FS1 is getting more flak than it deserves IMO. While FS1's story was standard, it did do a few things right. Collapsing the jump node to Sol was a good move for setting up a sequel and for developing the story. The Shivans were executed properly; they came off as being terrifying. And it did give a sense of dread even if it followed a predictable plot setup. I'd love to see a "re-imaging" of the entire FS saga. Iron out some of the inconsistencies.

I'd start by retconning beam weapons and letting the Shivans have them from the start. There hasn't been any convincing argument for the first Shivan fleet to not have them.

[General Battuta]

I'd start by retconning beam weapons and letting the Shivans have them from the start. There hasn't been any convincing argument for the first Shivan fleet to not have them.

Totipotent threat response capability prioritized, yo

[Droid803]

I think the issue is more of that in FS2, everyone acts as if the Shivans always had beam weapons and all. No surprise, no concern, nothing. I mean, if beams were newly encountered would they still be so confident in "showing them what firepower is all about"? Because nothing in the FS2 texts implies that the Shivans have actually been observed to advance in technology between the FS1 and FS2 - the game seems to treat things (to me at least), as if that's how the Shivans always were like - flak, beams, etc. It's not explicitly stated by it's what the presentation seems to heavily imply.

In a complete aside, what exactly was this thread split from? 

[An4ximandros]

I'd change a load of things:

Would take place post year 10'000;
Would start before the Terran-Vasudan War;
Would talk about the spread of man among the stars;
Would then jump to focus on the miracle and burden of first contact with aliens;
Would have heavy "political drama" regarding the decadent and byzantine Vasudan Parliament and the events leading to the War;
Would go into more detail regarding the pre-Great War Shivan contacts GTI had;
Would then do a remake of the Great War. Casualties, realistically, would be in the billions. All those Civilian evac missions would be filled with panic transmissions when Shivan show up.
Lastly, I'd figure out how the heck do you do something like this subtly.

And loads of other changes. To the point I begin to wonder why I don't just make a story of my own and leave FS as is.

Also, the beam thing would be resolved by

[niffiwan]

In a complete aside, what exactly was this thread split from? 

IIRC it was a support thread for FS1

[AdmiralRalwood]

I think the issue is more of that in FS2, everyone acts as if the Shivans always had beam weapons and all. No surprise, no concern, nothing. I mean, if beams were newly encountered would they still be so confident in "showing them what firepower is all about"? Because nothing in the FS2 texts implies that the Shivans have actually been observed to advance in technology between the FS1 and FS2 - the game seems to treat things (to me at least), as if that's how the Shivans always were like - flak, beams, etc. It's not explicitly stated by it's what the presentation seems to heavily imply.

In a complete aside, what exactly was this thread split from? 

The Lucifer did have beams; they were implemented differently due to engine limitations, but the Lucifer's main weapons were always beam weapons.

[Droid803]

And that would be enough for nobody to question the sudden appearance of beams on everything else right down to the lowly Cain cruiser? (and flak guns? and AAA beams, which just appeared out of nowhere/developed at the same time (!) as the GTVA?)

[Luis Dias]

That's the kind of thing best left out from the rational analysis and be dismissed as "rule of cool" thingy.

[General Battuta]

NEVER~

[Rga_Noris]

And that would be enough for nobody to question the sudden appearance of beams on everything else right down to the lowly Cain cruiser? (and flak guns? and AAA beams, which just appeared out of nowhere/developed at the same time (!) as the GTVA?)

I've accepted this as an intentional oversight for game play. Command does mention new fighters and cruisers specifically in a briefing, just not their weapons.

There really is no logical/believable explanation for the Shivans developing flak and AA beams suddenly, yet V had to do something to add to the gameplay, so they sorta lumped it in with fighters traveling through space at the speed of cars... Just ignore it, cuz it's fun.

[General Battuta]

There are logical and believable reasons. They just require some infrastructure.

[Lt. Spanks]

Shivans had "beams" in FS1. Just on the Lucifer though.

I do think it a little bit weird that after 32 years of no contact the two species would have THIS much in common in their technology development.
I mean maybe what should have happened is a mission where the Terrans capture a Shivan warship after taking hits from flak guns and AAA guns and then reverse engineer em up into their own ships. Could have made a few missions of it.

I always looked at the Shivans as way more technologically advanced than the Terrans (They blow up stars for win!) but I could be wrong of course.

Overall I would have to say that FS2 has the better story. My experience with FS1 was awesome of course, but the voice acting, writing, and plot just aren't as refined as they are in FS2.
When I finished FS2 I could have cried just because it was over.

[Rga_Noris]

There are logical and believable reasons. They just require some infrastructure.

Which, unless I missed something, we aren't really provided with.

[General Battuta]

Which is where mods with extensively developed Shivan backstories come in!

[Rga_Noris]

Which is where mods with extensively developed Shivan backstories come in!

Machaka!

[Megawolf492]

There are many differences between the two fleets:
1. No beams(except for Lucifer) or flak guns on Lucifer fleet.
2. New ships in the Sathanas fleet.
3. Old ships in the Lucifer fleet not used in the Sathanas fleet (Scorpions, a few bombers (I think), and the Lucifer of course).
4. Apparent size of the fleet.
5. Apparent goal of the fleet (destroying civilizations vs. destroying stars).
6. Entry point into T/V space.

So there seems to be enough evidence to say that the two fleets were isolated from each other for some reason. Maybe the Lucifer fleet was trapped in this region of space (which still extended far beyond T/V space). The only way to reconnect with the other Shivans was to activate the Knossos, which they didn't know how (or maybe didn't care) to do. So the Sathanas fleet could have had access to some R&D while the Lucifer fleet didn't. The Lucifer could have been a prototype sun crusher, but then the Shivans developed the Sathanas which was better at crushing suns. To put beams back on FS1 Shivan capital ships would completely ruin the balance of power in individual missions and overall. I mean, good luck getting through Clash of the Titans with a beamed Tantalus.

[Snarks]

There's evidence that suggests that the fleets were separate from each other, but little that makes much sense for the technological gap between the two Shivan fleets.

The Shivans have apparently been around for milleniums. For the technology gap between the two fleet to be ~20-40 GTVA years (based on how long it took the GTVA to develop beams/flaks) suggests an incredible alignment of technological progression. This Lucifer fleet which has been around long enough to destroy the Ancients and probably other civilizations before it was apparently splintered off from the main (FS2) Shivan fleet just before beams/flaks became standard. The Shivans being stagnant in technology and new Shivan tech is simply stuff we haven't seen makes it all the more believable as it would otherwise imply that the Shivans have a really weird technological progression rate, one that matches the GTVA to an incredible extent at some time frame seemingly without contact. It makes more sense if take the notion that A) there's some other entity that's giving the Terran and Vasudans a fighting chance or B)  didn't have the resources to implement beams and flak at the time of FS1, implying that they should have been there the entire time. The latter seems much more likely to be believable.

On this note though, I'd be curious to play some campaigns that attempt to rectify these discrepancies. Any suggestions?