[LtNarol]

Originally posted by venom2506
Lt Narol, her... It's Versailles please

sorry, never could spell that right

[CP5670]

vyper: I completely agree with your first post there; couldn't have said it any better. He doesn't know how to write but his views do make a lot of sense. (well, the first part anyway; the France bashing was just stupid)

the only decent thing this Michael Lindon can do is put his head in his arse and kick himself into the Sun.

just wondering, is it possible to kick oneself in the first place? That would already be quite a feat...

[Blue Lion]

Originally posted by an0n

2) America didn't even join the war until they were directly attacked. They didn't care that millions of Jews were being slaughtered.

We didn't join the European war until Germany declared war on us, on the 8th. Would we have joined the war in Europe if they hadn't? I dunno

(3) It was only Britains wanting to not slaughter civillians that made the war so long. If they had so wished they could have blanketed the skies with Window and levelled every single Germany city within a month or two. And they'd have been killing a few million Germans to ensure that they never again posed a threat to the some 6 billion peoples world wide.

Heh, pardon me....... bull****. Both sides were againest city bombing, Hitler himself stated no civilians were to be bombed. I'll say that again for the slow ones, Hitler had ordered that there be no bombing attacks on British civilian targets (ie cities). However one mission ****ed it up (The name of the plane escapes me at the moment) and a a plane bombed London againest Hitler's orders. But of course England bombed a German city in retaliation, and on it went. The bombing of London by mistake was one of the biggest ****ups of WW2.

4) If France had totally fallen and was beyond help, Britain would have withdrawn from the war and used it's VASTLY superior navy to butcher and German attempts at invasion. And without the need to further defend France, their supply lines would be only open to ground attacks which they were more than capable of defending against. The only threat would have come from the air, but with the entire British navy patrolling the waters packed with AA guns they'd have had no chance.

Vasty superior SURFACE navy, and no, German would have thrown the vast numbers (it had at the time, mind you) and overtaken, if Hitler had been smart and taken out Britland before attacking the USSR, woulda been a cake walk

5) If Britain had fallen, America would have been completely fine.......For about 6 years, then they'd have been massacred by the largest army, navy and airforce ever formed. Then they'd have launched thousands of nukes and destroyed the Earth.

You can't predict that. War is like a play, every nation has a part. Everyone relied on everyone to get them where they are today. Britland needs to thank the US, and vice versa And can I ask why people are discussing the possibilities of changes in a war over 50 years old? It's a different world today and coming up with different scenarios are pointless. No one could know what the world would be like now if it had been different. It could be exactly the same, completetely the opposite, or something no one could foresee (Swiss Superpower! ) I just like watching guys say "Oh yea, we didn't need you!" More than likely, they did. Now run along and go play games

[NegspectahDek]

Originally posted by Tiara


It has been proven that terrorists can cause havok in the heart of America so a government can also kill this guy "more efficient" than it has done now.

its funny here in america.  Unless you're muslim or arabic, you're not a terrorist, you're 'mis-guided' or 'brainwashed' or a 'militia-man,'  or my personal favorite, "Oklahoma City Bomber" instaed of terrorist.  Lifes funny that way

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by LtNarol
1. No, they didn't because they let Hitler attack nearby nations and only intervened after Poland was invaded.  Being harsher at the first sign would have detered Hitler.
2 The US was attacked by Japan, and did not have to enter the war in Europe; instead the US could have focused on the Pacific.
3. never heard of window, so I cant respond to that one.
4. You're forgetting the German U-boats and superior airforce, all the British had going for them was a determined (but vastly outnumbered) RAF and radar.
5. Not the case, Hitler would have gotten the the bombs at the first sign of becoming a problem for the US.

1. the war would have started earlier, that's all. The results may have been different but not by much. Unless Germany was crushed before it could attack the USSR,in whihc case Stalin would have tried too.

2. nope, you dodn't have to join. Germany would have bitten you in the arse though. Or maybe a scenario like in the movie 'Fatherland' would have unfolded.

3. ?? window??? What did Bill Gates do now?

4. you're also forgetting that the Brits had sonar. They ma not have held you, but Germany's nose would hve been bloodied.

5. maybe, maybe not. Germany would have been able to strike at the US with their 3rd generation V-weapons (2 stage rocket, range: at least to New York). Theoretically, Germany could have developed the A-bomb (we know the were working on it but post-war research has shown they were no where near completing it, or being even on the right track) while alos having the long range strike capacity to hit you.

Yes, the US effort in WW2 was very important, but so was that of the Brits and tha tof the USSR. Without either one it would have been nigh-on-impossible to stop Nazi-Germany:

- without US: In the long run Britain would have either sued for peace or be conquered. The USSR might have been conquered, or the USSR might have conquered Europeon its own.

- without USSR: if the USSR had been knocked out of the war a whole lot of troops would have become available again, despite the fact that you need a lot of men to keep a territory as vast as the USSR under control. If the USSR hadn't been attacked: Stalin would have made move sometime soon (he tried making a serious move after the war: see Berlin Crisis)

- without Britain: no D-day, no Normandy and most likely no Operation Torch either. Britain was vital for the US as a staging ground and depot. The US had to place it's men somewhere before the invasion and Britain was the place.

So instead of calling WW2 an American victory (which is a lie and pisses everyone involved off), it should be called an Allied Victory, because that was what it was. Without any one of the big allies WW2 would have been so vastly different that you wouldn't recognise the alternate timeline.

[Zeronet]

LtNarol, like hell it would be, WE won the Battle of Britian, not the Americans, not the Russians but the Royal Air Force. Thus any attempted landings on the shores of britian could be blasted by the RAF. The Battle of Britian was the battle that decided britians fate and thank the lord we won it. No single factor won the war, it was everyone working together. I think we did pretty good considering we had 25% of the world to defend. Germans airforce was defeated, they took the most losses overall, even if they'd won the BOB, we were gonna gas them at Dover and we would never of surrendered, we'd of fought in the hills, in the streets, everywhere. Churchill made it very clear we'd never give in.

[an0n]

Window:
A countermeasure to recently developed German radar stations. Planes preceeded the Bombers and dropped massive clouds of aluminium (I think it was aluminium) dust and debris. The clouds confused the radar stations making them think that vast amounts of bombers where on the way. When the real bombers showed up a few minutes later the Germans couldn't make out which signals where real and which were the dust clouds. And in one instance I know of, a German pilot had a visual on a bomber wing and could pretty much have waved to the crew but was ordered not to fire because the Radar stations couldn't determine if they were actually bombers.

I think it's first deployment was Dresden or Hamburg. But by the time they reached Berlin the Germans had figured out some vague way of determining real targets from fake ones. Then the Berlin AA guns beat the crap outta the bombers.

[Kellan]

I can't be bothered to read all this point-counterpoint stuff, ut I sure as hell will add to it.

1. Appeasement - whilst a misguided strategy to begin wih (Hitler's armed forces were so small when he reoccupied the Rhineland for example, that only a small French force would have seen them off), later it was used to buy time for the Allies to remilitarize, and was thus essential.

2. The USSR - was the real power behind the Allies. The war was already 'won' in late 1941/2 to be honest. This was because Hitler had failed to capture Moscow in a lightning strike. Soviet reinforcements had been fully mobilized and the German soldiers were trapped in a bitter Russian winter with no winter gear. The failure to capture Stalingrad was another clear turning point, as it meant no access to the Caucasus oil fields and was another example of German troops being tied up in Russia.

In a pure war of attrition, numbers alone proved that the USSR was bound to win against Germany. The intervention of the US only expedited the end of the war, particularly in the Pacific. Britain was important early on as Hitler's attacks on it meant forgoing attacks on the USSR by breaking the Nazi-Soviet Pact earlier.

The sheer number of casualties sustained by the USSR show that it took the brunt of Wehrmacht attacks - estimates range from 27-50 million, though the high estimate probably includes the Purges as well.

===

Anyway, history 101 ends now. I'll see if I can find any other points to refute.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally posted by Top Gun
Was there an e-mail address supplied with the letter (my paper norally only prints e-mail letters)? So we can invite him over here and see what lies behind the mind of a moron.

No, sorry. Only have the city: Syracuse, NY. Don't insult the city though, I'm from near there....

[Martinus]

I'm not at all familiar with the history of WW2,  I was wondering do people still regard the americans as simply showing up when the war was almost won in an attempt to grab some of the glory?

I read this somewhere, it may be entirely false, I'm not sure.

[CP5670]

I can't be bothered to read all this point-counterpoint stuff, ut I sure as hell will add to it.

I agree with that stuff; the war was mainly won by the Russian winters and Hitler's stupidity in military strategy.

[Mr. Vega]

Originally posted by an0n
1) Britain did everything it could to avert war but Hitler was intent on conquering the globe. He attacked Poland and Britain declared war.
2) America didn't even join the war until they were directly attacked. They didn't care that millions of Jews were being slaughtered.
3) It was only Britains wanting to not slaughter civillians that made the war so long. If they had so wished they could have blanketed the skies with Window and levelled every single Germany city within a month or two. And they'd have been killing a few million Germans to ensure that they never again posed a threat to the some 6 billion peoples world wide.
4) If France had totally fallen and was beyond help, Britain would have withdrawn from the war and used it's VASTLY superior navy to butcher and German attempts at invasion. And without the need to further defend France, their supply lines would be only open to ground attacks which they were more than capable of defending against. The only threat would have come from the air, but with the entire British navy patrolling the waters packed with AA guns they'd have had no chance.
5) If Britain had fallen, America would have been completely fine.......For about 6 years, then they'd have been massacred by the largest army, navy and airforce ever formed. Then they'd have launched thousands of nukes and destroyed the Earth.

1.Britan (or at least Britan's leaders) was afraid of another war and didn't do anything until they realized what Hitler intended to do.
2a. Point. We were isolationist lazy people until we got pissed. I stiil think FDR was a good president.
2b. All we knew was that Jews were were being persecuted. We had no idea of the scale or brutality until we liberated the camps.

have to go, finish this later

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by Mr. Vega


1.Britan (or at least Britan's leaders) was afraid of another war and didn't do anything until they realized what Hitler intended to do.

Wouldn't you try to prevent a war if you lost millions of men (Europewide) in a war less than 30 years before?

As you know WW1 was burned deep into the British (and into the western European) psyche. It is not for nothing that WW1 is still called 'the Great War' in these parts of the world, even with WW2: the Sequel.

[Grey Wolf]

Oh no, I started a history debate.
This won't end well....

[an0n]

Oh and if America had stayed out of the war then not only would Britain be screwed (or maybe even conquered) but America would have been nuked to ****. The only thing that got the American nukes before Hitlers little alliance was war-panic. It'd've been: Britain goes boom. Britain steals nuke plans and forces stalemate with Hitler. Britain tell America to take a flying **** regarding nuke plans. Hitler attack US and demands surrender. America says no. America dies. Britain realise that in future they should share intel.

[Blue Lion]

One flaw in your plan...

Originally posted by an0n
Britain steals nuke plans and forces stalemate with Hitler.

[an0n]

How so. British intelligence managed to find out about Pearl Harbour ages before the attack. And that was just as big as nuke development. Hell, they even stole an advanced prototype Russian tank somehow. Blueprints is easy.

[Blue Lion]

Not finding it, but forcing Hitler to a stalemate.

[an0n]

I dunno. After a few weeks of decimation on both sides I think no-one would be in any shape to attempt non-nuclear counter-strikes nor would they want to start nuking again.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Hitler wasn't even close to making a nuke. that rumour was thourougly investigated after the war, even until a few years ago untill they found that lost shipment of 'heavy water'

Mad Dolphies real weapon of terror was the rocket. And for all that matters: Germany was the only nation to have rocket that could reach so far as they did. And like I already said: von Braun was very close to making a rocket that could reach New York.

Considering it took both the US and USSR German rockets and rocket-scientists to make their own missil-programs after the war... this teaches me that both superpowers had a lot of catching up to do on that front.