Author Topic: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.  (Read 59319 times)

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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Time to make a bug report for SCP.
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Offline Cobra

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Had the same problem with Aftermath 2, most likely not a problem with the mod.

What mission is it? Would it happen to be a red alert mission?
To consider the Earth as the only populated world in infinite space is as absurd as to assert that in an entire field of millet, only one grain will grow. - Metrodorus of Chios
I wept. Mysterious forces beyond my ken had reached into my beautiful mission and energized its pilots with inhuman bomb-firing abilities. I could only imagine the GTVA warriors giving a mighty KIAAIIIIIII shout as they worked their triggers, their biceps bulging with sinew after years of Ivan Drago-esque steroid therapy and weight training. - General Battuta

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
The Intro cutscene of AF2. Another problem I had was that the "infinite weapon/energy" cheat causes a CTD.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
The Intro cutscene of AF2. Another problem I had was that the "infinite weapon/energy" cheat causes a CTD.

Have you reported that bug to SCP? I'm gonna harp on this until people get it. You gotta make tickets on the github (link in the top under Reporting Bugs) if you want these things to be fixed.
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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Not yet.

  

Offline General Battuta

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
I really don't like this whole mess of untested updates to support unstable builds...I wish we were on a known stable build. (This is not a criticism of the SCP, just of our release practices.)

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Hello,

After a decade away from Freespace, I have returned to the series -- and have started from the "beginning".  I have completed FS1 and am about to complete Silent Threat: Reborn (which is *fantastic* -- thanks to everyone who created it).

Next up:  Freespace 2.

Question:  is a good summary / review already available (or is someone willing to offer one now) of FS2 vs. FS2 Blue and the pros / cons / watch-outs (technical and otherwise)?

Also, is it correct that FS2 and FS2 Blue use the same MediaVPs (this is all assuming Knossos is used) and therefore there is no difference in that specific regard?

Thank You,
Spectata

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
New MVPs have been released about 11 days ago and FSBlue hasn't been updated for those yet. You can still force the newest version but it might result in unforseen breakage.

As for the differences it's mainly down to the fact that FSBlue uses the BP mopack, therefore the ship and weapon rebalances done for AoA are carried over to FS2. So you get the buffs for underused ships like the Myrm, the Bakha rework, and the weapon energy buffs for bombers and heavy fighters(because in retail the Erinyes has the same weapon energy as a Perseus at 150 while bombers are even lower at 100).

You also get the rebalanced weapons which should be more competitive with the prom S so you don't end up only using it. So the new Circe with massive shield damage, Lamprey actually using electronics so it acts like the FS1 D-missile and can disable cruisers, Morning Star rework into a flak-like antifighter weapon with reasonable energy drain(unlike the retail version which has Kayser like energy drain for crap damage), and some other minor changes.

For missions some of them have been reworked like Slaying Ravana, others have had additional dialogue enabled like Their Finest Hour. This dialogue was always in the FS2 files but was either unused or set up so it was extremely unlikely to ever be heard(you'd need like 6 beam misses in a row to hear Psamtik's full dialogue). Missions after "A game of TAG" have also had proper TAG support since that has to be SEXP'd in mission otherwise TAGs do nothing. Now they actually work and are one of the better options for the lategame.


As for the cons, you get more guaranteed stability with MediaVPs as there are no possible dependency conflicts. You also get an experience closer to classic FS2 so if you don't want more radical rebalancing then obviously you should play that.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Thanks, FrikgFeek.

In the context of my not being technically sophisticated:

My Knossos is set to use stable builds.  Does that setting apply to builds of *each of* (1) FSO (2) MediaVPs and (3) mods?

And does that necessarily result in Knossos automatically using the "right" / compatible version of MediaVPs for the particular mod being run at any given time, such that there will not be "dependency conflicts"?  For example, right now would Knossos have FS2 use one set of (the newest) MediaVPs and FS2 Blue use a *different* (older?) set, to avoid dependency conflicts?  Or would Knossos force every mod to use the latest stable version of MediaVPs it has downloaded, regardless of dependency conflicts?

Related question / from a different angle:  When set to "stable", does Knossos download / use one and *only* one set of MediaVPs at any one time?  Or does it sometimes have / use multiple versions of (older) stable releases to avoid dependency conflicts for circumstances such as when "New MVPs have been released about 11 days ago and FSBlue hasn't been updated for those yet."?

Thank you.

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
The new Morning Star as I mentioned a few posts back also allows you and the Aquitaine to FINALLY kill that #$*@ Moloch in Proving Grounds.

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Setting it to stable makes it use stable FSO builds and doesn't affect any mods. MediaVPs is still a mod so it doesn't affect it either.

Knossos downloads MVPs as it needs them. So if a mod like BPC specifies an MVPs version Knossos will download it and use it with BPC. If no version is specified modside it will use the most recent version. What this means for BPC is that you don't get all the new graphical upgrades released with the latest MVPs version unless you force it to use the latest one, which it won't do by default.

[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline DefCynodont119

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
The new Morning Star as I mentioned a few posts back also allows you and the Aquitaine to FINALLY kill that #$*@ Moloch in Proving Grounds.

 :wtf: The Aquitaine always kills it on it's own tho. . .

(assuming we are thinking of the same mission) I've never seen that Moloch escape the Aquitaine's beam salvos.

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Offline SypheDMar

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
I think it's more common in lower difficulty. Especially if you disable the Abaddon, in which case the Aquitaine will continue out of range of the corvette and until she jumps away.

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
The new Morning Star as I mentioned a few posts back also allows you and the Aquitaine to FINALLY kill that #$*@ Moloch in Proving Grounds.

 :wtf: The Aquitaine always kills it on it's own tho. . .

(assuming we are thinking of the same mission) I've never seen that Moloch escape the Aquitaine's beam salvos.



I generally play on Medium and it survives nearly everytime on vanilla, even when staying near it and ambushing the Maras that go after the main gun. I've tried cranking it up to insane just to see, and I still couldn't get a consistent kill until FSBlue.

 

Offline DefCynodont119

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
I play on medium as well, I think it's because I'm usually near the Moloch right as it jumps in, so the Aquitaine fires on it immediately.

I think that's the reason at least, I should do some thorough runs of it later.
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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
As for the differences it's mainly down to the fact that FSBlue uses the BP mopack, therefore the ship and weapon rebalances done for AoA are carried over to FS2. So you get the buffs for underused ships like the Myrm, the Bakha rework, and the weapon energy buffs for bombers and heavy fighters(because in retail the Erinyes has the same weapon energy as a Perseus at 150 while bombers are even lower at 100).

Were the original weapon energy imbalances intentional / a mistake / an oversight, etc.?

If actually intentional, what was the rationale?

 
Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Most of them are just down to :v: tabling weapons and ships by the seat of their pants. Most modern mods will have spreadsheets for weapons and ships so they can easily compare all the values and get decently balanced numbers, :v: almost certainly didn't have anything of the sort so they just plopped in random numbers that "looked okay" and called it done.

Just look at the Myrm, it's a random hodge-podge of stats with turn times worse than a herc II and more comparable to a bomber, yet relatively low shields and health like a light fighter. And it has Helios compatibility but doesn't have the Harpoon.

For the weapons certain effects are vastly overestimated and the weapon has **** stats to accommodate a rather useless effect. The Lamprey and Morningstar are good examples, their effects aren't useful enough to run a weapon with very high energy draw and low damage. The Prometheus R is probably the only weapon that is intentionally useless as it's used very often by NTF ships so it was probably made as bad as the Shivan weapons. In both FS1 and FS2 the weapons the player gets are much better than enemy weapons so the Prom R was balanced around hostiles having it, making it useless for the player.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Actually, FS1 and FS2 operate on a system of planned obsolecence - which makes very different from modern games, outside the RPG genre, have widely stepped away from that kind of design and so have modders. Remember that there is completely different set of PvP weapons in retail, which is evidence that issues from the progression of the single player was to side-stepped in competetive play.

The Myrmidon is an example case because it is clearly meant to be replaced by more specialized fighters as you progress, outside of "Endgame" no mission after the introductory arc requires you to fly it. It clear move from a "jack of all trades, master of none" to the "master craft" for each particular role.

With the bombers, the low primary energy capacity, is a clear move to push the use of secondaries for the bomber role.
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Remember that there is completely different set of PvP weapons in retail, which is evidence that issues from the progression of the single player was to side-stepped in competetive play.
Except this set of weapons is also hilariously unbalanced. Look up the stats for the Mekhu HL7-D, it's the best MP weapon by far. Not to mention that not all multiplayer modes use "Dogfight" weapons. Then look at the UD-D Kayser and see how incredibly bad it is. The Kayser does lower damage than the Subach while costing literally 10 times more energy to sustain. The Subach HL7-D while not as stupidly overpowered as the Mekhu is still vastly superior to all other options, having the 2nd highest DPS and the lowest energy drain. Only the Mekhu's honestly idiotic damage beats it(it has better hull AND shield DPS than the singleplayer Kayser while costing the same energy as the singleplayer Mekhu).


The Myrmidon is most definitely not a jack of all trades. Nothing about it makes it more versatile than the Perseus. It has 3 secondary banks but they're small and the compatibility is bad so you can't get much versatility out of them. The 4-2 primary configuration might offer some versatility... if the compatibility wasn't so bad again. It can't mount the maxim so you don't have good utility options for the 2-bank. It isn't very durable so it can't act as an assault fighter. You might think it's somewhat tough because of its massive size and the "Average" armour but in reality it's only very slightly tougher than the Loki(it has 10 less shields but 40 more hull).

The Mrym isn't bad because other more specialised ships perform each role better, it's bad because its stats are terrible across the board. The Perseus is better for every type of mission. Unless you want to claim the Helios compatibility is intentional despite those never appearing together.


With the bombers, the low primary energy capacity, is a clear move to push the use of secondaries for the bomber role.
Except this doesn't matter because their high shields grant them high shield regen which then lets them tap shields for weapon energy with 0 ETS on weapons.



And the biggest problem with this "planned obsolescence" theory is that the vast majority of weapons suck even if they're introduced later. The Subach becomes obsolete after you get the prom S, this is planned obsolescence. The Mornginstar is always useless, so is the Circe, so it the Lamprey, so is the Prom R. They all come later in the campaign yet they're all far worse than your starter weapon, the Subach.
With secondary weapons this is mostly true as they're obviously better balanced to offer a progression of power. The major exception being the Tempest which does the most retarded damage and is the first missile you have access to.

Aside from that you go from the Rockeye to the Harpoon, an objective improvement then from the Harpoon to the Tornado, another improvement, and then to the Trebuchet which is the best homing missile in the game and comes in later in the campaign. This is what primary progression would look like if it was actually balanced for planned obsolescence. But instead you sit on the Subach until you get the Prom S, and then add in the maxim for anti-subsystem work. The only weapons that get "improved on" are the Maxim being an improved Akethon and the Prom S being a better overall weapon than the Subach.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 03:26:54 am by FrikgFeek »
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
The Myrmidon is most definitely not a jack of all trades.

How about you don't misquote me? - I said the Myrm is a "jack of all trades, master of none"

If you are unfamiliar: While calling someone is a "jack of all trades" is a compliment of their versitility, adding the qualifier "master of none" is to turn the compliment into a complaint. The person describes as such is said to have failed in the persuit of versitility and instead of achieving proficientcy failed to acquire any skill they were hoping to achive.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 12:23:16 pm by 0rph3u5 »
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."