Author Topic: TBP 3.7.3 Released  (Read 10893 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Why would a font change alter anything?

By using a trick and calling it "1o Training wing" we could make sure that it appears at the top of the list like the "Achen Flying School" before. With the current font the number can hardly be noticed ;)!

See? Don't do that. Don't hack it. Don't rename the file to a silly name that will become really obvious if we ever change the font.

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This discussion started because "Achen Flying School" is listed as a campaign which it isn't. It's just a single mission which might confuse new players in regard of what a campaign is supposed to be! Also we have a real training campaign now, "Io Training Wing", and when 0rph3u5 suggested making single missions a seperate option in the main menu, my idea was to have a training mission in each of them. If everything stays like it is, we don't need any changes, but I would still prever "Achen Flying School" to be moved to the single mission menu.

Fine, but there is no reason to hack things to make them top of the list for the two or three players who might need it. Especially when hacks like that can cause major problems further down the line. For instance, what if the SCP decide to use the * as a special character to denote something else but we've followed your advice about naming missions using it? Just don't hack things! It's a really bad idea. As an SCP programmer you have no idea the number of times someone's dumb hack has prevented us from doing something cool. Just don't do it. You're borrowing trouble from tomorrow for a minor issue that next to no one will care about or notice today.
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Offline wesp5

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See? Don't do that. Don't hack it. Don't rename the file to a silly name that will become really obvious if we ever change the font.

Ah, now I understand! I didn't like that solution either which was why I proposed the other one.

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For instance, what if the SCP decide to use the * as a special character to denote something else but we've followed your advice about naming missions using it?

Then it would take about 1 minute to use another character instead of *, if that really happens...

 

Offline karajorma

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And then every single person has to download it. Assuming that there still is a TBP dev team at that point (there have been long periods when there basically wasn't).

Again, what benefit does this provide that makes it worth taking the (admittedly small) risk?
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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+1 for game_settings.tbl and just declaring a default campaign

Game_settings.tbl will also allow to add back the custom icon and "The Babylon Project"-header - https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Game_settings.tbl#.24Window_title:
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline wesp5

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+1 for game_settings.tbl and just declaring a default campaign

Okay, then I'm all for setting "Io Training Wing" the default campaign while moving "Achen Flying School" to single missions. It's the first mission there anyway :)!

 
I personally would rather see any efforts put toward actually coming up with new content.  No one is going to be thrown off by having the training missions the way they are and I don't want to have people downloading another release to fix something that is not broken.  For many years people have figured it out and I think they will do fine. 

Any new campaigns should be put out as addons to TBP.  With them they can make whatever changes to tables and screens that they want.  If was debated to do this for any of the updated campaigns but since all the ones I worked on used the default tables I decided it would be great to offer a single package for people to jump in and have plenty to play.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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I've done some voice work on this I think.....

 

Offline wesp5

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I personally would rather see any efforts put toward actually coming up with new content.

You mean all existing content should be integrated in TBP. I doubt that anybody at the moment is working on new stuff, or is there?

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Any new campaigns should be put out as addons to TBP.

I don't know how this would even be handled and would rather like to have everything inside of the main game. Also see above...

Anyway, I just started to play the Janus campaign and honestly I really dislike the new UI message and video popups! They are much too distracting, popping up right in the middle of the screen or taking too much room to the side which is really annoying during a fight. I think the original setup with having them small and located to the left side made much more sense and the mod should return to that setup!

 
Well you can change that in the config file to your personal taste.  This message setup is used in a lot of newer campaigns as well as other total conversions. 

You can't please everyone

 

Offline wesp5

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Well you can change that in the config file to your personal taste.  This message setup is used in a lot of newer campaigns as well as other total conversions. 

Cool, I didn't know that! I might play around with this a bit. With newer campaigns you mean other FS2 mods? Maybe the old TBP ones just use much more text...

P.S.: Are there similar files to adjust the rest of the hub? Cause the "Wingmen" windows is still cut off on the right side and it also overlaps with the "Monitoring" windows if more than two wings are active, the same goes for the "Video" window which overlaps with the "Directives" window. Everything looks crowed compared to the original...

P.S.: All of the above is valid for the default resolution of 1024x768 and it does get better if you increase the resolution, but I think it should look good in every resolution!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 06:26:47 am by wesp5 »

 

Offline wesp5

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Can someone please at least answer or better even take a look at the new HUD at the default resolution? I get more overlapping of damage windows and message windows or special messages like in the Vorlon campaign with everything else. And of course the backlog gets cut off all the time. Has anyone even tested the new HUD on lower resolutions? I'm pretty sure all of us have large monitors, but at default setting it looks like a complete mess and this is where new players will probabyl start!

Also what is the command to disable the HUD inside of a mission because I now get the Starfury HUD during cutscenes of the Vorlon campaign and I can't remember seeing this before. Has this been changed? Last not least during the Janus campaign the progression was not saved and I noticed some textual mismatches with the Babylon 5 universe that are not part of the missions, but stored in some tables or elsewhere. Like "Subspace drive engaged" when it should be "Jumpgate triggered" or similar as I don't think you ever play as a ship that can open it's own jumppoint. And "Return to base" which basically means jump to subspace in FS2, but again should be "Reach nearest jumpgate" or similar in TBP. And "Engine failure, can not engage warp drive" which should be "Can't jump without jumpgate" or similar. I guess this is all in strings.tbl, so how it can be edited in the easiest way?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 01:33:53 pm by wesp5 »

 
First off what Vorlon campaign are you talking about (what is the exact name)?

The new hug table was developed for 1920X1080.  If you run a lower resolution than that you will have to go in and make the changes you want. 

You can make changes to position and font sizes in:

hud_gauges.tbl

fonts.tbl

axmessage.cfg   for instance

"Position": {
    "Origin": [
      0.5,
      0.65
    ],

will move the message box to below the recticle.



As for changes in missions you will have to take that up with Karajoma or Orph3u5 as I am not up to speed to fix missions.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 02:41:39 pm by OverDhill »

 

Offline wesp5

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First off what Vorlon campaign are you talking about (what is the exact name)?

That's "Guardian of Light". A Vorlon talks to you during the missions which is basically displayed where the messages are displayed right now! So we might have a problem with the new HUD in any mission where authors assumed the original setup...

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The new hud table was developed for 1920X1080.  If you run a lower resolution than that you will have to go in and make the changes you want.

Huh, that was a little bit naive, wasn't it? I mean if you adjust everything at default 1024x768 it will look great at any higher resolution. If you do it the other way around, it looks good at 1920x1080 and probably messy at any other lower resolution!

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You can make changes to position and font sizes in:

hud_gauges.tbl

fonts.tbl

So what tool would I use to edit these tables?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 03:35:45 pm by wesp5 »

 
You can use Notepad++ to edit the files.


You could always revert back to the old setup.  Just see what files need to be deleted and replace the font table with the old one.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 05:55:00 pm by OverDhill »

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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I personally would rather see any efforts put toward actually coming up with new content.

You mean all existing content should be integrated in TBP. I doubt that anybody at the moment is working on new stuff, or is there?

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Any new campaigns should be put out as addons to TBP.

I don't know how this would even be handled and would rather like to have everything inside of the main game. Also see above...

*raises hand*
I am working on a campaign, currently I am in a phase which involves stuff that is technical minutae to non-FREDers (I was able to change to tracks to work on another project because some of the execution is based on shared principles - its very synergetic). The nature and lenght of the campaign means its also hard to really show stuff, not mention that a lot will be filled placeholder graphics.

Integrating all content is going to be difficult going forward. Some of the fancier systems acutally rely on addon tables and having multiple of those are going to cause conflicts, and it is not always practical to intregrate those into the main install. A prime example is iff_defs.tbl which handles the "teams" during a mission (e.g. Friendly, Hostile, Non-Combatant). The limit on possible IFFs is 8, and it is a very useful category for mission design as you can run distance checks and arrival anchors of e.g. <any hostile>.

However, making a seperate release on Knossos that uses TBP as a dependency is really easy. It's two easy to do steps which are required part of making new mod on Knossos anyway: 1) Inputting that the Mod is dependency of TBP and 2) setting a compatible version of TBP for the mod you are creating. After that you can go hogwild in your own little corner without worry if you are going to break the main TBP install.



re: Training Messages

To be fair, the Training Messages were never actually meant to be used that way they are used in many old campaigns - they were meant for the tutorial missions only. But with limited ressources they were frequently approriated to display stage directions or hints. Today, you would either use the show-subtitle-text SEXP or a custom HUD gauge - but both were either underdeveloped or non-existent back then. (I think we had the old, hard-to-handle show-subtitle SEXP back when 3.4b released)

I remember that I did move them for my own work, but until I have the custom Detector and Timer gauges up and running for TBP, I don't have any results to share. I moved them unter the reticle and above the radar.
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline wesp5

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You can use Notepad++ to edit the files.

Indeed, they are normal text files :). And here I was thinking they are packed or something. I will start on the text issues right now!

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You could always revert back to the old setup.  Just see what files need to be deleted and replace the font table with the old one.

I will do some experiments! Maybe it is possible to keep the new font and just move the elements around to fit lower resolutions...
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 04:29:34 am by wesp5 »

 

Offline wesp5

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I am working on a campaign, currently I am in a phase which involves stuff that is technical minutae to non-FREDers (I was able to change to tracks to work on another project because some of the execution is based on shared principles - its very synergetic).

Cool! But you are already working in the core mod development too, so maybe you can find a way to merge your changes so we don't need TBP mods?

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To be fair, the Training Messages were never actually meant to be used that way they are used in many old campaigns - they were meant for the tutorial missions only.

I wasn't aware these were Training Messages, thanks for the tip :)! I have now moved them to be above the new message window and below the damage window, which I moved up a bit too. I also adjusted all other elements that were overlapping so they look good at the default resolution! Exceptions will still happen if missions have too many directives or monitor too many ships, in that case we could only fix these missions instead because there just is no room. Of course the updated HUD works as fine as before in higher resolutions! I will send the archive to OverDhill to integrate in an upcoming TBP 3.7.2 if possible.

Now that I know that the tables are simple text files ;), I also replaced all string references of "subspace" with "hyperspace" and "warp" with "jump". I set "Io Training Wing" as the default campaign and the default Centauri beam color to yellow as shown in the TV show! I know these last changes might be disputable, but I think they would make sense as well. Last not least I have one request that we should discuss openly because it's a rather personal matter:

I really hate the default mission loading screen which shows the Excalibur from Crusade. I think this ship is absolutely not typical for Babylon 5 in being a design and technical absurdity and should therefore not be that prominent in TBP! It's not called "The Crusade Project" after all and I would suggest to replace it with the new logo which at the moment is only visible if you select TBP details in Knossos.

 
Orph3u5 new campaign will be an addon as he has very custom tables. An addon can overwrite a default table so he can make as many changes as he wants. 

I am going over the tweaks you sent me and I have started a 3.7.2 release candidate.  I will make what adjustments I see fit for higher resolutions but still not have an impact on your extremely low rez.  There is just a lot of stuff on the screen to try and run it that low.  I would be curious in this day and age as to what resolutions people are using. 

Of coarse you can always run your own tweaks

I am going to modify the The new axmessage box so that it can be centered on the screen but not interfere with the items on each side (again there is a not a lot of real state to work wiith at 1024X768. The way you tweaked it has it off center which at a higher rez looks bad. 

Stay tuned
 

 

Offline wesp5

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I am going over the tweaks you sent me and I have started a 3.7.2 release candidate.

Thanks! Of course many people use higher resolutions today, but when you install TBP it defaults to 1024x768 which is why I discovered the mess in the first place when I made a clean Knossos 0.14 and TBP 3.7.0 installation. Also as it's not easy finding where to change the resolution in Knossos, the first impression thus might be bad...

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Of coarse you can always run your own tweaks.

I may update my Unofficial Patch if the difference is too large, but I would rather see everything in the core game!

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I am going to modify the The new axmessage box so that it can be centered on the screen but not interfere with the items on each side (again there is a not a lot of real state to work wiith at 1024X768. The way you tweaked it has it off center which at a higher rez looks bad.

I didn't like this myself and it could be easily fixed if it could be make thinner which I didn't manage to do though...

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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But you are already working in the core mod development too, so maybe you can find a way to merge your changes so we don't need TBP mods?

While it is technically possible to merge my changes into the core at this stage, it would not be good practice as they are highly specific and for the most part hardly applicable to anything else. The mod support for FS_Open was designed for the just such a scenario and Knossos was programmed to enable its use to the fullest.

There are issue with having mods via Knossos, and that's just with the current development stage of Knossos: the lack of a Sort or Category functions in the Explore-tab. But I've been working around that little hurdle too:


I've to clear that with the Knossos dev staff, as that's a bit of a hack, but one task at a time.
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."