[CT27]

In the mission where the Colossus got destroyed, Command first ordered the Colossus to get out of there before it got destroyed by the Sathanas.

Sometimes the Colossus was marked as disabled, but sometimes it wasn't.  For the sake of argument and for the sake of this thread, let's assume the Colossus would have been able to jump out if it wanted.



Should the CO of the Colossus have jumped out when Command ordered him to...or did he make the right decision in staying behind (his argument was he was trying to buy time for the Bastion to get through)?

[Trivial Psychic]

They should've pulled a 'Holden' maneuver, and kamikaze-jumped into the Sathanas.

[Shivan Hunter]

The main thing that needs to be mentioned here - and I've just replayed the mission to make sure - is that all the dialogue is written as if the Sathanas destroyed the Collie in minutes (Petrarch specifically says this), when in actuality the Collie gets destroyed in seconds. Just like with the Pheonicia, the sacrifice doesn't/wouldn't buy much time at all, and it feels like both sets of dialogue were written by someone who didn't realize just how quickly the Sath could kill things (possible rebalance during development?)

[Mobius]

I agree with SH here - dialogues and text just don't match the actual power of BFRed beams as they are shown ingame. Also, the fact that it was disabled isn't even mentioned, IIRC.

The main issue here is that wanted the Colossus to die at that point as a sign that hope was fading away. It should have definitely jumped out and joined other GTVA forces trying to cover the retreat. In fact, what the CO did (we don't even know his name) is questionable.

[Mongoose]

IIRC, there's a whole waypoint path and associated events for the Colossus in the mission file that never play out because it's disabled. It feels like something wasn't working right and disabled it as a last-second fix.

[Kie99]

Where to?  Capella's going to be cut off from GTVA space imminently.

There are three jump nodes out of Capella

Gamma Draconis - a node to Shivan controlled space, which is about to be cut off along with Capella.

Epsilon Pegasi - The node the Bastion is about to go into.  If the Shivans decide to send another Sathanas to finish the job then the Bastion doesn't stand a chance

Vega - The node where the evacuation of civilians is taking place.  If the Sathanas follows it here it's an absolute massacre of civilians.

I suppose it could jump out to some random spot in Capella, hope the Sathanas doesn't follow, then head to Vega after the evacuation's done and immediately before the Nereid's due to deploy.

[Novachen]

In the original mission, the Colossus is going down before all communication messages were sent completely .

As far as time specifications are concerned, FreeSpace 2 is extremely unfortunate in my view anyway. I mean, the game also gives the impression that the entire campaign takes place within a few days rather than a few weeks or even months.
That's why I think you have to look at time outside of how it's presented in the game.
When I think of "High Noon", then surely more than just a handful of fighters will have been involved than is shown in the game. And I generally think that the battle probably goes on much longer than the few minutes you spend in that mission.

Of course, the way it's presented in the game, the sacrifice makes no sense and is totally worthless. But if you look at it in a differentiated way, that the game only shows everything extremely compressed in terms of time, then perhaps the Bastion has been given more time.
On the other hand, it may still have been a pointless sacrifice, because the Shivans could easily have sent another Sathanas... or even some other capital ship like a Demon, Ravana (SD Nebiros) or similar after the Bastion. But in the final version of "Clash of the Titans II" there are only remnants of events in the mission file that point to a potential shivan capital ship, but there is none present.
So judging by what happens in the mission after the destruction of the Colossus... it would have been better to pull back.

[Mobius]

On a slightly unrelated note, this thread inspired me to add some Wiki trivia on the number 17. The number used by to designate the Sathanas that wiped out the Colossus may have not been a coincidence. 

[Mito [PL]]

[Iain Baker]

Most instances in FS where cap ships fight to the bitter end are pretty pointless. The extra seconds they buy achieve nothing.

Far better to jump out once hull integrity falls below say 25% so the ship can be repaired (or at least cannibalised for parts and its surviving crew re-deployed).

IMO the only times a cap ship shouldn’t be jumping out when it’s getting badly damaged are:

A: If it can’t because it’s disabled or it’s navigation system has been compromised.

2: If it can’t because it’s jump drive hasn’t re-charged yet.

3: It it can’t because of gravity wells, subspace inhibition fields, or other plot-specific shenanigans.

4: If it gets gutted so quickly that it’s dead before it gets a chance to react (such as being shock jumped by a Sath - which as we know is pretty much an insta-kill for anything smaller than the colly).


Just my two cents of course, feel free to disagree 👍🙂

[BengalTiger]

The Iceni had a talent of jumping away multiple times, so it's not like it was impossible to do so in a pitched battle.
I think the Big C should have ran for it.

There was so much learned since its first action against the Shivans, that it could have become an effective weapon against them if it got out and got modified.

New heat sinks for its beams.
New armor plating. It had a combination of different materials on its outer shell, I'm sure they'd know which ones get burned through the slowest.
New subspace drive. The Iceni had some tech to reveal for sure.

OR...
Uninstall most of its direct combat weapons and add 3 or 4 more giant hangar bays.
Fill those with a fleet of bombers.

OR...
Uninstall most of its direct combat weapons and replace them with subspace drive equipped meson bomb launchers.
Then a single stealth fighter with a targeting dart can call strikes on Sathanases provided the Big C is anywhere in the system.
That would show 'em.

[Colonol Dekker]

Develop the freespace equivalent of the infinite imporbability drive....the FRED (flexible reality entanglement drive) and just have it turn the shivans (all the shivans) spontaneously into tins of soup.

[BengalTiger]

This is getting into JAD territory...

[xenocartographer]

Most instances in FS where cap ships fight to the bitter end are pretty pointless. The extra seconds they buy achieve nothing.

Far better to jump out once hull integrity falls below say 25% so the ship can be repaired (or at least cannibalised for parts and its surviving crew re-deployed).

IMO the only times a cap ship shouldn’t be jumping out when it’s getting badly damaged are:

A: If it can’t because it’s disabled or it’s navigation system has been compromised.
2: If it can’t because it’s jump drive hasn’t re-charged yet.
3: It it can’t because of gravity wells, subspace inhibition fields, or other plot-specific shenanigans.
4: If it gets gutted so quickly that it’s dead before it gets a chance to react (such as being shock jumped by a Sath - which as we know is pretty much an insta-kill for anything smaller than the colly).


Just my two cents of course, feel free to disagree 👍🙂

E: The enemy can track its jump and is in a position to give chase, and moving or splitting the battle won't accomplish anything.

Interestingly, whether that's an argument for or against retreating depends on how you resolve the ludonarrative dissonance. If you take the dialogue as canon over the gameplay, then it's an argument for sticking around; if you take the gameplay as canon over the dialogue, it's an argument for withdrawing.

[Kie99]

Both sides' tactics in this mission leave a lot to be desired.

The GTVA don't seem to have anticipated that after the Shivans send a Cain, then Lilith, then a Moloch, then a Ravana, one of the 80+ juggernauts they have in system might hop over. 

I don't see why the Colossus was there at all.  If the aim was to draw bombers away from the Bastion surely you want things that bombers can be useful against - send the Aquitaine, the Memphis, maybe even just the few cruisers they did send.  In fact scatter lots of little battlegroups around harassing Shivan positions.  By putting the Colossus there you're practically begging them send a Sathanas.

Then of course there's the real problem with the GTVA strategy - why are they sending the Bastion through Capella, a contested system where the Shivans hold a massive advantage?  Surely it makes more sense to send the Bastion through GTVA space to Epsilon Pegasi the long way round.  It's 5 jumps.  I know they want to get the job done quickly, but the risk if they don't make it is insanely high.

The Shivans on the other hand, send several ships to their deaths facing overwhelming firepower when they've got 80+ juggernauts in system.  The Beast obviously stands no chance against the Colossus, it's just cannon fodder.

Narratively I don't think it works that well either, the purpose of the sacrifice isn't well communicated, it's clearly supposed to be this heroic sacrifice to buy the Bastion time, but it's never really explained how they're helping the Bastion.

If I were rewriting it I'd have the Colossus be in one of those evacuation missions towards the end of the game.  It's hanging around at the jump node deploying fighters.  A Ravana comes in and starts decimating the convoy, the Colossus is ordered to jump out of system, Command notes that there are 80 juggernauts in system, Shivan activity is rising.  It refuses and turns back to attack the Ravana.  It's victorious, the survivors are leaving, but as the Ravana's going down, three juggernauts warp in and obliterate it.  At least then it's actually obvious what it's dying for.