[NGTM-1R]

Except now we're into the tactical jumping fallacy, for which there's no precedent in FS. More probably it would just jump off and come back later.

[Bob-san]

Sizzler, i hope you calmed down. I try not to have ships take 'shortjumps' due to the fact there is no real information on it, other then the fact that it can happen....

[TrashMan]

There is no canon evidence to support short jumps. Aditionally, shivan ships have a tendency to fight till death and not run away.

The Orion vs. Sath example is not a guesswork of mine - I FREDed the mission and let them duke it out.
Note that I didn't plot paths for the ships - I just gave both of them the chase goal.

If the Orion starts off facing in the same direction as the Sath and right next to it, in 9 out of 10 cases it will destroy the Sath.

Even with fighters in the equation, the Orions fighter complement can hold off the shivan fighters long enough.

I havn't tested other starting positions much.

[NGTM-1R]

Even with fighters in the equation, the Orions fighter complement can hold off the shivan fighters long enough.

20 wings vs. 30+ wings? Why do I not believe that?

[karajorma]

The Orion vs. Sath example is not a guesswork of mine - I FREDed the mission and let them duke it out.
Note that I didn't plot paths for the ships - I just gave both of them the chase goal.

Remind me again. How long have you been FREDding?

Cause the first thing any FREDder learns when making capship battles (after figuring out how to make the beams work) is that ai-chase is absolutely useless when it comes to making a capship battle. The resultiing battle is in no way realistic. I've seen ships toss up and down as if they were on the ocean when doing that. It's just simply not the way to FRED a capship battle.

When you said you had FREDded a mission to show that the Orion could destroy a Sathanas I assumed that you had done it using waypoints because I didn't believe for a moment that you would do anything as monumentally amateurish as simply telling the two capships to chase each other.

For all the effort you put into making this a fair test you might as well have simply picked a winner out of a hat.

[TrashMan]

The Orion vs. Sath example is not a guesswork of mine - I FREDed the mission and let them duke it out.
Note that I didn't plot paths for the ships - I just gave both of them the chase goal.

Remind me again. How long have you been FREDding?

Cause the first thing any FREDder learns when making capship battles (after figuring out how to make the beams work) is that ai-chase is absolutely useless when it comes to making a capship battle. The resultiing battle is in no way realistic. I've seen ships toss up and down as if they were on the ocean when doing that. It's just simply not the way to FRED a capship battle.

When you said you had FREDded a mission to show that the Orion could destroy a Sathanas I assumed that you had done it using waypoints because I didn't believe for a moment that you would do anything as monumentally amateurish as simply telling the two capships to chase each other.

For all the effort you put into making this a fair test you might as well have simply picked a winner out of a hat.

Don't patronize me.

IF I was scripting their every move THEN it would be a unfair battle, as I could script it so that the Orion allways evades the Saths cannons.
This way there is a matter of chance, alltough I discovered that the Orion will practicly allways follow the above route. If it's next to the Sath, the Sath loses, and the Orion actually behaves unusually smart, trying to stay on the Sath right side all the time.

And while the Sath has more fighters, it can't launch them all instantly. And for some strange reason, the Terran/Vasudan fighters seems smarter than the shivan ones (even toguh I increased the strength of shivan weapons). In allmost all of my test the allied fighter force won, despite being outnumbered.

Go figure...

[aldo_14]

Don't patronize me.

IF I was scripting their every move THEN it would be a unfair battle, as I could script it so that the Orion allways evades the Saths cannons.
This way there is a matter of chance, alltough I discovered that the Orion will practicly allways follow the above route. If it's next to the Sath, the Sath loses, and the Orion actually behaves unusually smart, trying to stay on the Sath right side all the time.

And while the Sath has more fighters, it can't launch them all instantly. And for some strange reason, the Terran/Vasudan fighters seems smarter than the shivan ones (even toguh I increased the strength of shivan weapons). In allmost all of my test the allied fighter force won, despite being outnumbered.

Go figure...

It's not a matter of chance; it's well known that capship AI doesn't judge the best firing angles but simply tries to broadside (this reflecting most ships' in FS1 and - except the Shivans - in FS2 having broadside weaponry) the other ship.

Even I know that putting a ship against a Sath with purely AI-chase is ludicrous, because the game doesn't recognise all the Sath needs to do to win comfortably is turn to face the enemy.  And if you set it up so that the Orion and Sath are facing the same way - i.e. sitting at broadside - it is blatantly obvious that the Orion has a huge and engineered advantage.

 It's about as fair a test as sitting a Mjolnir and Cerberus side-by-side, and then declaring the Cerberus is the most effective weapon because its turret can turn and hit the Mjolnir whereas the Mjolnir can't hit it.

[karajorma]

Don't patronize me.

Every halfway competent FREDder knows that you script battles because ai-chase is only useful on fighters and bombers. I've seen people in the FRED Academy who are fresh from the walkthrough know that this is the case. Hell as Aldo has pointed out even people who aren't FREDders know that you simply don't do things that way.

If you're trying to present evidence that you're correct then do so. But this is not evidence. It's the exploitation of poor capship AI code and for you to assume that I know so little about FRED that I'd believe it was anything else is just as patronising.

IF I was scripting their every move THEN it would be a unfair battle, as I could script it so that the Orion allways evades the Saths cannons.

BOTH methods are unfair. If you bother to check up the thread I was pretty scathing of how bad a test scripting the mission in that way would be. It could probably be made fairer than this travesty though. 

The only really fair test would be to make a multiplayer mission and have both players control each ship a couple of times. That would be a fair test. Nothing else on this thread would be.

Even I know that putting a ship against a Sath with purely AI-chase is ludicrous, because the game doesn't recognise all the Sath needs to do to win comfortably is turn to face the enemy.  And if you set it up so that the Orion and Sath are facing the same way - i.e. sitting at broadside - it is blatantly obvious that the Orion has a huge and engineered advantage.

Exactly. That's one of the main reasons I found it so ridiculous that Trashman was presenting this as any kind of fair test. It's a situation where the Sathanas will actually turn in order to make none of its weapons able to fire. Even giving the Sathanas orders to stay still would probably result in more wins.

[TrashMan]

It's not a matter of chance; it's well known that capship AI doesn't judge the best firing angles but simply tries to broadside (this reflecting most ships' in FS1 and - except the Shivans - in FS2 having broadside weaponry) the other ship.

Even I know that putting a ship against a Sath with purely AI-chase is ludicrous, because the game doesn't recognise all the Sath needs to do to win comfortably is turn to face the enemy.  And if you set it up so that the Orion and Sath are facing the same way - i.e. sitting at broadside - it is blatantly obvious that the Orion has a huge and engineered advantage.

 It's about as fair a test as sitting a Mjolnir and Cerberus side-by-side, and then declaring the Cerberus is the most effective weapon because its turret can turn and hit the Mjolnir whereas the Mjolnir can't hit it.

You don't get it do you?
I didn't need to script this battle as the chase AI will actually work as I want it to in this case.

As for the Sath turning - it can only do that if the Orion isn't right next to it (which it was), or it will collide with it.
But I do agree that there is no "fair" test.

If we start from the assumption that both the Orion and the Saths captains are competent (not unlike the AI ) then the Sath has a clear advantage.
If hte Orion is far out then it is toase - the Sath wil lturn and vaporize it.
But there are situations where a Orion could do terrible damage to it - if the captain has some brains.

Flying so close to the sath that you're allmost scratching it and mimicking it's moves should work..in theory at least.

[Polpolion]

There is no canon evidence to support short jumps. Aditionally, shivan ships have a tendency to fight till death and not run away.

WTH? Whats preventing the Shivans from jumping to somewhere 5K away? And anyway, the Shivans arn't that stupid.

[Mobius]

Shortjumps or..nanojumps?!?
An Orion behind the Sathanas Takes the Juggernaut down.The Sathanas tries to move so its most powerful beams can do their job,but the Orion(which should be more meneuverable) evades it.The AI couldn't do this perfectly,the Orion will be shootable and then pulverized...the AI...but we know that the player can pilot some warship with some special mods,so he can make this possible.

Do you remember the Maahes?What was the Sobek doing?

What's the problem?Why you're discussing so actively for this SathOrion confrontation?The Shivans are Shivans.They're not stupid,but they cannot work alone.They're like the ants,they can be eliminated easily if you use good tactics,but you'll never win because their number if far superior.The design of most Shivan warships suggest it:take the Ravana,the Rakshasa and the Sathanas.They have all their powerful beams pointing straight,while most TV warships are different,having small beams almost everywhere so they can hit targets at 360%.Thay have a particular "Battle Philosophy".
     
          "If the target is where our beams can pulverize it,ok.If not,we'll die,there are so many of us ready to fight...."

Something like this.the Shivans are powerful because they can be sacrificated(exists?).The Phoenicia escapes.The Beast is destroyed.Got it?

[TrashMan]

In both FS1 and FS2 no short jumps (or tactical jump) were ever seen, nor the possibility for them mentioned.

It would have surely be very usefull in may of the mission from the main campaigns, yet we don't see it.

Whenever a ship jumps, its WAAY outside of your sensor range (millions of klicks), as tehy usually jump to the other end of the system.

And the shivans do seem to have no regard for their own losses.

Even the Sathanas didn't yoump out when it was being pulverized by the colossuss... Nor did the Ravana.... nad they both had ample time to re-charge thier drives.

[Mobius]

It's what I said before
Another thing in common with TrashMan!!!

I was talking about Inferno's Nanojump,it isn't canon,ok,but when we think about the Post Capella period we all think about INF and nothing more,so...

[NGTM-1R]

we all think about INF and nothing more,so...

You think about INF and nothing more.

[karajorma]

You don't get it do you?
I didn't need to script this battle as the chase AI will actually work as I want it to in this case.

Cause you want the Sath to lose.

Post the damn mission. I'll show you the flaws in seconds.

[Mobius]

we all think about INF and nothing more,so...

You think about INF and nothing more.

And what you think instead of INF?

[TrashMan]

You don't get it do you?
I didn't need to script this battle as the chase AI will actually work as I want it to in this case.

Cause you want the Sath to lose.

Post the damn mission. I'll show you the flaws in seconds.

What? You're brain damaged or something? (no offense)

The purpose of the missions is to show that the Orion can heavily damage/destroy a Sathanas IF it has a good starting position and a captain with some brains.

Of course the Sath will wipe the floor with it if it starts infront of it or if it just waltzes infront of it's cannons....Sheeesh.

[Mobius]

You don't get it do you?
I didn't need to script this battle as the chase AI will actually work as I want it to in this case.

Cause you want the Sath to lose.

Post the damn mission. I'll show you the flaws in seconds.

What? You're brain damaged or something? (no offense)

karajorma brain damaged

We are repeating the same things using different words...enough now...

[Kie99]

If the Captain of the Sathanas (AI) was competent he would outpace the Orion then destroy it with the LRed on it's back end.

And I'm sure no-one would take offense at someone assuming they're brain damaged.

[NGTM-1R]

we all think about INF and nothing more,so...

You think about INF and nothing more.

And what you think instead of INF?

BWO, my own (planned) campaign, Scroll of Atankharzim, Twisted Infinities. Inferno has a place too, of course. (Might have included Machina Terra too, if they had any content worth a damn...)