[Polpolion]

Ya' know what, I'm getting really pissed off at the stupidity of some of you. I'm just gonna try and avoid this thread from now on...

[BS403]

good idea

[karajorma]

The purpose of the missions is to show that the Orion can heavily damage/destroy a Sathanas IF it has a good starting position and a captain with some brains.

Of course the Sath will wipe the floor with it if it starts infront of it or if it just waltzes infront of it's cannons....Sheeesh.

You simply don't get it do you?

The point is that the Sathanas is constantly moving in order to give the Orion a broadside it doesn't have. That's the flaw in your mission.

You have claimed that an Orion can stay out of the reach of the Sathanas' guns and then made a mission in which the Sathanas itself will move in order to prevent its guns ever targetting the Orion. That is possibly the most idiotic test I have ever heard of in my life.

Of course the Orion will heavily damage the Sathanas if you exploit a bug in the game. I've explained this to you several times but you just don't seem capable of understanding it. Which is why I'm saying you should post the mission so I can take screenshots and show you how the Sathanas actually turns away from getting its guns into range. I could build a mission to show that in seconds but I know that you would simply claim that I've rigged the mission.

The gauntlet has been thrown down. If the best you can do is insult me rather than post your own best shot at proving your point even though it would take you all of 3 minutes to recreate I'll take that as a sign that you realise what a complete load of bollocks your argument actually was.

[BS403]

I know i said i'd stay out of this but...
All trashman is saying is that it is possible for an orion to heavily damage a sathanas even if the ai were smarter.  The orion would simply have to maneuver itself very carefully.
Now this has gotten out of hand

[karajorma]

All trashman is saying is that it is possible for an orion to heavily damage a sathanas even if the ai were smarter.  The orion would simply have to maneuver itself very carefully.

I never said that an Orion couldn't damage a Sathanas before it could turn around and bring its guns to bear but I certainly debate that something as slow and ponderous as an Orion could ever be fast enough to dance it way out of the Sathanas' beam cannons for that long.

 I certainly don't buy the assertion that an Orion could destroy a Sathanas. These sort of tests always assume that the Orion is able to stay behind the Sathanas but given the sheer amount of time it would take the Orion to do a 180 degree turn if the Sathanas chooses to rotate in the opposite direction to the one the Sathanas was heading in I don't buy it.

And that's before you consider the fact that the Sathanas is actually faster than the Orion which means that it can simply outrun the Orion until it has enough of a head start on it to flip round and bring its guns to bear before the Orion can hide from it. Circle strafing is not an effective manouver against an opponent who can simply run away faster than you can circle him.

[Mobius]

That is possibly the most idiotic test I have ever heard of in my life.

Repeat:You are posting the same things I have already posted,there's no businness.

[TrashMan]

All trashman is saying is that it is possible for an orion to heavily damage a sathanas even if the ai were smarter.  The orion would simply have to maneuver itself very carefully.

I never said that an Orion couldn't damage a Sathanas before it could turn around and bring its guns to bear but I certainly debate that something as slow and ponderous as an Orion could ever be fast enough to dance it way out of the Sathanas' beam cannons for that long.

 I certainly don't buy the assertion that an Orion could destroy a Sathanas. These sort of tests always assume that the Orion is able to stay behind the Sathanas but given the sheer amount of time it would take the Orion to do a 180 degree turn if the Sathanas chooses to rotate in the opposite direction to the one the Sathanas was heading in I don't buy it.

And that's before you consider the fact that the Sathanas is actually faster than the Orion which means that it can simply outrun the Orion until it has enough of a head start on it to flip round and bring its guns to bear before the Orion can hide from it. Circle strafing is not an effective manouver against an opponent who can simply run away faster than you can circle him.

It all depends on positioning.
IF the Orion jumps in within spitting distance of the Saths flak (or jumps a bit further but manages to spil in while the Sath is distracted with something else), then the Sathanas CAN'T turn to face the Orion and blast it - it would collide with it.


What it can do is try to use it's superior speed to pull out, gain enough distance so it can turn without problem. It however takes time during which the Orion can give it a nice pounding.
The AI is stupid here as it stars to turn too soon and the Orion catches up.

[Hippo]

Trashman is losing this thread.

[Mobius]

Make a multiplayer mission.Karajorma takes control of the Sathanas while TrashMan controls the Orion(it's possible with a MOD,isn't it?).No stupid AI.

[Axem]

I would like to see a captain sane enough to make that jump. Not only are you jumping in under 1km to the Sath, but you have to come out at just the right time so that you are then moving with it when you slow down, and at that very angle for a full broadside.

And why wouldn't the Sath turn to ram it? The collision would probably severly damage the Sath, but the Orion wouldn't survive.

Also what's stopping the Sath from retreating? If I got caught in my blind spot, I'd turn tail for a bit to eliminate the disadvantage.

[Polpolion]

*Disregaurds my last post

Stupid AI is a fluke. In the game, the Shivans and terrans are both are intlligent beings (hence the massive warships they produce). And seeing how the AI can only be so good (AI can not be all powerful in this game), and that the AI isn't very good (as Trashman stated), so we are forced to assume that the AI is not proportinal portrayals of what they would be like if FS2 was reality. We then must figure that the Shivans are at least as smart as us FS2 players, plus a lot more. For all we know, the Sathanas could pull some crazy-ass manuver and take both Orions out with one beam. Doubtlessly, command probably tried to engage the Sathanas' weak points when it engaged the fleet, but since the battle wasn't a playable mission, we know that poor AI or glitches in the game did not prevent the Sathanas from decimating the fleet. Also, in the Nebulea stealth mission where you scan the subsytems of the Sathanas, the Sobek corvette was engaging from the Sathanas' blind spot. "HAHA!! CHECKMATE!! YOU LOSE1!!!" you're saying right now, but we can assume that the Sathanas was on a mission of significant mission of importantce, as it did not turn to engage one measly corvette. It didn't even stop to finish off the GTVA fleet it had blown straight through or had circumnavigated. So with that in mind we think that the Sathanas didn't want to delay it's mission to destroy an already doomed corvette. After all, the Shivans could send a destroyer to kill it later, or even a Lilith. There, and to wrap it all up the "Sathanas > orion" team wins.



*ENDS DESCUSSION*

*DESCUSSION OVER*

*NO MORE POSTING*


 

[Nuclear1]

What it can do is try to use it's superior speed to pull out, gain enough distance so it can turn without problem. It however takes time during which the Orion can give it a nice pounding.
The AI is stupid here as it stars to turn too soon and the Orion catches up.

Yeah, but again, the Sathanas has a nice LRed situated in the back, and since the Orion has very little offensive firepower on its starboard side, the Sathanas could very well easily tear up Orion 2 in that pic while its bombers disarm Orion 3's offensive port. At that short range, it's not terribly difficult for the Shivan bombers to launch, and, under cover of the Sath's AAA weaponry, disarm Orion 3. The bombers continue to damage Orion 3's engine, allowing the Sath to pull out even faster without risking colliding with Orion 3. The Sath crosses the T with Orion 2, fires, and then takes position to wipe Orion 3 out.

[TrashMan]

I would like to see a captain sane enough to make that jump. Not only are you jumping in under 1km to the Sath, but you have to come out at just the right time so that you are then moving with it when you slow down, and at that very angle for a full broadside.

And why wouldn't the Sath turn to ram it? The collision would probably severly damage the Sath, but the Orion wouldn't survive.

Also what's stopping the Sath from retreating? If I got caught in my blind spot, I'd turn tail for a bit to eliminate the disadvantage.

1. If you world and whole species is about to get destroyed, jumping close to a sath (or even ramming it9 doesn't sound that insane anymore.

2. If the Sath turns around (in game) the Orion won't blow up...they will just push eachother around liek glues while slowly losing thier hull integrity.. and the Orion would still shoot.
In RL the Orion would blow up, the Sath would be heavily damaged or destroyed - either way a risk worth taking for a terran commander.

3. What's stoping any ship in the game from retreating after 1-2 minutes (the time it takes to charge the jump drives)? Nothing. Most of them don't.
The Shivans due to their hive frame of mind, the terrans becouse of their stupidity and sometimes inabiltiy to fall back (they have to protect something)

[Mobius]

fire-beam
one BGreen or two on that turret,or let the player do this.

I had one Orion not being hit by the LRed as it attacked the Sathanas both in its right side and behind it in two different misisons,while the destroyer could use its BGreens.

*ENDS DESCUSSION*

*DESCUSSION OVER*

*NO MORE POSTING*

[Polpolion]

fire-beam
one BGreen or two on that turret,or let the player do this.

I had one Orion not being hit by the LRed as it attacked the Sathanas both in its right side and behind it in two different misisons,while the destroyer could use its BGreens.

What? Use different words, then see if it makes sense.

[TrashMan]

What? Use different words, then see if it makes sense.

I think he means that the Sath missied the Orion with all 4 beams...

[Mobius]

Uhm,I try it.
1)The Orion can destroy the turret housing this LRed firing one or two BGreens on it;
2)In my campaign one Orion attacks the SJ ******** first jumping in its right side in the first mission,the behind it in the second one.In both missions,the Orion fires it beams without any trace of this LRed=the Shivan turret is useless against the Orion.

Understood?When someone has difficulties writing in English,just use your brain to understand
Mr Think then post

[Mobius]

What? Use different words, then see if it makes sense.

I think he means that the Sath missied the Orion with all 4 beams...

That's not definitely what I said....

[Bob-san]

You might like my way of stopping the Sathanas... but it's highly classified until the release of my campaign...

Two ships going head-to-head, with the SJ losing.

[Axem]

1. If you world and whole species is about to get destroyed, jumping close to a sath (or even ramming it9 doesn't sound that insane anymore.

Fair enough. But there are still things that can go wrong during transit that would mess up everything.

2. If the Sath turns around (in game) the Orion won't blow up...they will just push eachother around liek glues while slowly losing thier hull integrity.. and the Orion would still shoot.
In RL the Orion would blow up, the Sath would be heavily damaged or destroyed - either way a risk worth taking for a terran commander.

It might look stupid but the Sath would eventually get the Orion in its firing arc. And in real life, the Sath can face the Orion without changing its velocity.

3. What's stoping any ship in the game from retreating after 1-2 minutes (the time it takes to charge the jump drives)? Nothing. Most of them don't.
The Shivans due to their hive frame of mind, the terrans becouse of their stupidity and sometimes inabiltiy to fall back (they have to protect something)

What does a hive mind have to do with not retreating? It might place a lower value on their kind, but it doesn't mean they will just let it die. And I cannot believe Terrans don't jump out because they are too stupid.