Author Topic: Axem's HTL Charybdis  (Read 45833 times)

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Offline Kobrar44

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I think we all appreciate the effort some people are making to give us good-looking, upgraded models of old retail ships, but... If these are the maps that are going to be included in mediavps, I would like them to be totally redone. Not because I don't like them. I don't like them, that's a fact, but the reason is that they simply look bad and they don't look too FreeSpace. And it is not because there is no tilemap. It is because they are simply poor. I don't know how many filters have been used and lights in fact look awesome, but plating looks really cheap and artificial. Maybe that is because this is still WIP, but there is still style which is not correct. As someone already mentiond, it looks really 'bp' and it wouldn't be even bad if it wasn't a mediavps texture. But it is. Saab0o has his own style which isn't bad, but clearly differs from original FS2 style, which instead of being killed, should be rather preserved since it is FreeSpace Upgrade project.
Oh guys, use that [ url ][ img ][ /img ][ /url ] :/

 

Offline The E

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Look at these pictures, polish hate brigade (I think that's what I'm gonna call you from now on). LOOK AT THEM. Then point out how one isn't a clear upgrade over the other, or how it doesn't look FS-ish all of a sudden.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
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There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline Shivan Hunter

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Look, I can totally understand if you think these textures aren't "fs2-style". All it means is you didn't even look at the model. Here, why don't you look at it now:



See those sharply-defined gray tiles? That's about as "FS-style" as it gets without also being repetitive and low-res. Yes, it does also look high-tech, which it should seeing as how it's a top-of-the-line experimental cruiser by the time of FS2.

Stop acting like a bunch of unappreciative ingrates and make your own texture if it ruins FS so much.

 

Offline Droid803

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maybe making the grey less dark can make the cables thinner.
(´・ω・`)
=============================================================

 

Offline Sab0o

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I was beginning to wonder if Dragon had a point when I was reading these replies.
but then I

 

Offline Commander Zane

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Really the most significant change is the fins look like they can move, which doesn't even take away from it since it looks good.
Has anything been done as far as the blue inside the domes go?

 

Offline The E

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Yeah, they'll be all blue and glowy when it comes to release time.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Sab0o

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Looking at that comparison has gived me a few ideas actually. Thanks for making me post it.

Has anything been done as far as the blue inside the domes go?
We have a glowy animation that will be used when zacam finalizes it.

 

Offline TopAce

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I have no problem with the HTL version's textures. If you make the glowy blue part of the domes any well (and I assume you will), then I'll be 100% satisfied.
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Offline Kobrar44

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First of all, pattern on parts of the ship where there were unique textures have been changed for unknown reasons. To me they were kind of characteristic and now they are gone. Where there were tilemap there is much artistic freedom, but there are few things that I find noFS. First is the noise[??] on the plates. In original FreeSpace it was less chaotic, often lighter on one side and darker on the other, here it is... well. Chaotic :p Also, plating lines are too dark. In original freespace plating lines were more focused on reflections these lines caused than here. Here the lines are nearly the only thing present. When I look at it I also have an impression that plates are really sharp. I don't know how to describe it, but I think it is visible. I find FS plates smoother.
Oh guys, use that [ url ][ img ][ /img ][ /url ] :/

 

Offline Nyctaeus

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Look at these pictures, polish hate brigade (I think that's what I'm gonna call you from now on). LOOK AT THEM. Then point out how one isn't a clear upgrade over the other, or how it doesn't look FS-ish all of a sudden.
Awww... Polish hate brigade. I feel honored Mr. My-taste-is-only-good-taste-and-my-subjective-opinion-is-only-righteous-opinion

Now back to the ground.
If you think the Charybdises are silmilar, take a look at this:

THIS is something similar. Iceni is the best example. Textures are THE SAME as in retail Iceni, but UPGRADED. The same color scheme, the same textures layout the same details, the same armour plating, the same everything, but uvmapped and refreshed. This is quintessence of VA's texturing genius.
This is Freespace UPGRADE Project, not the Freespace Artistic Reimagination Project. Idea of FSU is upgrade everything, not add artistic inventions of the autors.
Open your eyes and look. You're trying to change the aiming of the FSU to your subjective tastes, and you don't care about everyone who think different than you. Keeping everything the same as in FS is the most important. Leave your artistic invention to mods. I won't continue this pointless discussion because I told you it so many times and it's starting to be boring. Kudos only for Sab0o, for having keenness to texturing all of these models.
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Offline Spoon

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This is the only thing going through my mind as I read these latest posts.


These new textures look so much better than that old random tilemapped brick wall texture its not even funny.  Polish hate brigade gonna hate.
Also that iceni is a terrible terrible example. That's not even an upgrade in any kind of shape or form. What the hell man  :blah:
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline The E

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Quote
Open your eyes and look. You're trying to change the aiming of the FSU to your subjective tastes, and you don't care about everyone who think different than you. Keeping everything the same as in FS is the most important. Leave your artistic invention to mods. I won't continue this pointless discussion because I told you it so many times and it's starting to be boring. Kudos only for Sab0o, for having keenness to texturing all of these models.

That is decidedly untrue. I am not "changing the aims of FSU". I am not influencing people to change models according to my tastes. However, unlike you, I know how to give proper feedback.

Oh, and let me get back to this statement of yours: "Keeping everything the same as in FS is the most important. Leave your artistic invention to mods."
You just basically said that our work here is meaningless and misguided. Good job on that. Now get out there and make your own version of these models, present them to the public, and then we'll have this conversation again.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Shivan Hunter

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This is the Freespace UPGRADE project. It makes **** BETTER.

You could if you so desire play FS with completely unchanged textures, models and effect. YOU COULD PLAY RETAIL FS. Hell you could play without the FSO if you want. In fact why don't you go do that and leave the rest of us- who actually want good-looking models- alone.

This is the only logical conclusion you can possibly come to. If you really do want nothing changed then play retail FS, since by your own definition it's better than any awesome work the FSU could possibly create.

 
Total lurker adding my 2 cents.  The upgraded Charybdis is incredible, and totally retains the feel of the original (if some people want the lighter gray colorization, fine, whatever).  That upgraded Iceni is *yawn* by comparison, although I suspect it's an older HTL at this point, so comparison to a brand new HTL is perhaps unfair.  Why tilemap when the author made such beautiful custom paneling on the new HTL?

As an outsider, I feel if someone puts in the effort to remap a model, and does it as well as it's been done in this thread, some minor changes in colorization and plating are more than allowable.  Particularly in this case, where care was made to make the Charybdis look cutting edge, as it is described.

GREAT JOB!

 

Offline Rodo

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oh my, 3WW broke here.
el hombre vicio...

 

Offline Flipside

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Firstly, at the moment I consider this a heated discussion, but just be aware that it's moving at times towards a dowright row, and I'd prefer it if people didn't do that :)

Secondly, I like the model, the defining factor, as far as I can tell, for FSU models is that they resemble the original and they do not break single- or multiplay experience compared to the original, The colour of glowy bits etc is entirely in the hands of the person who took the trouble to make the model and is not really a factor in the functional acceptability of the model.

People can argue over aesthetics, that's fine, so long as it remains civilised, but the final decision lay in the hands of the creator for details and the FSU team for functionality and are primarily based on the above conditions.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Ok, what I see going on here is as follows:

The original model is a very simple one. Axem extrapolated some detail into it while keeping with the general design of the ship, and did so very well.


The tile patterns in the old textures just don't happen to fit very well with most of the changes made to the ship. Where there were flat planes (where simple paneling made mostly of rectangles) worked for the original model, it wouldn't exactly fit in well with the new model. Sab0o's textures are made for the new model, and they complement each other wonderfully, while still making it obvious that it's the Charybdis that we all know.

If the modeler had wanted to stick to the "details" present in the original textures, there would have been precious few changes he could have made to the model, because there simply wasn't much to work from on the textures. Artistic freedom in adding detail that fits into the design would still have to have been used, while sticking to original texture tile patterns would have limited that process.


As it is, we have a wonderful model, with extremely high-quality textures, that isn't yet finished (seriously, it'll look much more like the charybdis once the domes glow blue), and people are complaining because not all the patterns from original texture tiles are replicated.


Why should they be replicated when the model now has detail of its own? Tile mapping was, at the time of making of FS2, pretty much a cheap way to make flat planes on a model look like they had some details on the surface. We've been doing texture upgrades and normal maps for them to increase that illusion of detail for retail models, but by far a new, detailed model is always a better solution.


The fact of the matter is that this looks much better than the original charybdis and, most importantly, fits in quality-wise with other upgraded assets, so it'll most definitely go in. If someone has an objection, they're free to re-texture the ship with textures that more closely resemble original tiled patterns, but I can pretty much tell the results won't look better than this because of the aforementioned reason: The model has changed, and the tiles were designed for flat planes.

Feel free to try, and we encourage all the attempts at improving things. If you make a different texture, and if majority of the community deems it superior to this version, then by all means we'll make use of it. However I am highly doubtful on how and why replicating the tile patterns would make the texturing better. I suppose it could be possible to trace panel lines from the tiles, but they are pretty dull to begin with and there are no guarantees they will work at all with the new model, but like said - feel free to try.


Now, since this is turning into a cable thickness debate, I propose we put it on hold until we see how the ship actually looks in finalized form, with the glowy domes and all.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Col. Fishguts

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The retail models for both the Charybdis and the Iceni are prime examples for :v:'s sloppy modeling/texturing work for FS2.. i.e. some random geometry with some tile map slapped on it. This always made me cringe when thinking that they made fully UV-mapped cruisers for FS1, but resorted to this rush job for FS2... and that style is in my opinion totally not worth of preserving :ick:

So, any deviation of the (FS2) retail look can only be better in my book.
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Offline Mongoose

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The only really little thing I'd personally like to see tweaked would be to make those orange windows a bit more yellow-ish, since that's more in keeping with the "FS2 window color" look that most of the ships use.  Other than that, I think the haters are pretty crazy.  This is hot stuff.

Honestly, besides the cool rotating domes, the retail Charybdis is easily one of the ugliest ships in the game.  Anything's an improvement.