Terrans seize control of it and finally blast those ugly zods to ends of the galaxy.
What if the Colossus had managed to jump out just before the Sathanas had destroyed it?The Shivans would have jumped another Sath on top of wherever the Colie ended up jumping to. Colossus gets blasted anyway. End of story.
What if the Colossus had managed to jump out just before the Sathanas had destroyed it?The Shivans would have jumped another Sath on top of wherever the Colie ended up jumping to. Colossus gets blasted anyway. End of story.
If I ever get to make that FS2 coop remake I plan to, this is how I planned Their Finest Hour to end anyway.
Unless the Colly managed to make a precision jump, very close to an outbound node, I doubt she ever would have been able to leave the system before it went nova, due to how slow she is in first place and due to the heavy damage she took from the Shivans.
You know, that would've been a decent addition to the FS2 ending, which is, thematically, about humanity's insignificance: escorting the crippled Colossus out of the system, inching towards the node...
...and then losing the Colossus when Capella went supernova because **** you
What if the Colossus had managed to jump out just before the Sathanas had destroyed it?The Shivans would have jumped another Sath on top of wherever the Colie ended up jumping to. Colossus gets blasted anyway. End of story.
If I ever get to make that FS2 coop remake I plan to, this is how I planned Their Finest Hour to end anyway.
Unless the Colly managed to make a precision jump, very close to an outbound node, I doubt she ever would have been able to leave the system before it went nova, due to how slow she is in first place and due to the heavy damage she took from the Shivans.
I am pretty sure it's hinted at that the colly uses fusion reactors or some other power source that uses deuterium, perhaps that mission where you are escorting the supply convoy through the NTF booby trapped asteroid field
The Colossus surviving FreeSpace 2 would have been similar to the Yamato defeating the big @$$ US Navy air strike that was meant to sink it and surviving WW II.
This would mean that battleships would still be seen serving alongside aircraft carriers.
The fact the Big C survived in this alternative history would pretty much prove supercaps are the way to go, being the only ship that blew up a Sathanas and managed to get away with it.
The real problem would be that there is only a single one of them, and that it barely made it out alive...
I would expect FS 3 to have a fleet of several SuperColossus class ships, complete with heat sinks designed to handle overpowered beams, the ability to fire at even longer ranges, and with the beams placed in a way to allow the use of all the "main gun" ones in a broadside (or head on), as well as giving wide fields of fire in case the Shivans managed to get better firing positions.
These superjuggernauts would also need some big hangars and lots of Flak guns, as it was proven in FS 2 that the Shivans have endless supplies of fighters and bombers.
The original Colossus might even be retired as soon as the first GTVA superjug entered service, or be used for propaganda while the new ones are stored in some far away world, waiting for the next Shivan invasion.
How this method would work against 80 SSJ Dante class ships (or whatever the Shivans come up with next) is anyone's guess.
it was a sath (another juggernaut) that killed the collie. maybe if 90 Iowas ( ;7 ) had killed the yamato your parallel would be relevant but even then it wouldn't prove the point you're making.
you seem to be confusing fs1 themes with fs2 things, it seems like. in fs1 you saw the rise of the fighter as a viable platform with things like shields and huge bombs. They go from pitiful little deathtraps to neigh invulnerable ships against capships. In fs2 capships can stave off defeat a bit longer with AAA beams and flak, but the message is the same as at the end of fs1.
Well the theme is that the Big C got destroyed, just as the Yamato did.
If the Yamato didn't get blown up, it would prove BB's have a future, but need to adapt to new, flying threats- same way the new GTVA superjugs would have to be able to shoot Shivan superjugs faster.
On the other hand- if it was battleships that sunk the Yamato, it would mean that the US Navy had rocket assisted, subcaliber, GPS guided shells back in '45. :p
Or that the Yamato defeated the US airstrikes and they had to sink it in a battleship slugfest.
If battleships could regularly defeat air attacks then that would imply they don't need to try any new strategy, contrary to what mr. tiger suggested.
You know, that would've been a decent addition to the FS2 ending, which is, thematically, about humanity's insignificance: escorting the crippled Colossus out of the system, inching towards the node...Haha that would have been awesome :nod:
...and then losing the Colossus when Capella went supernova because **** you
If battleships could regularly defeat air attacks then that would imply they don't need to try any new strategy, contrary to what mr. tiger suggested.
If the Colossus could have survived against SJ Sathanas juggernauts, than no new strategy would be needed, other than making more and better Big C's.
Because moar shivans and then Juggernauts bugged out before the GTVA announced more Collys.If battleships could regularly defeat air attacks then that would imply they don't need to try any new strategy, contrary to what mr. tiger suggested.
If the Colossus could have survived against SJ Sathanas juggernauts, than no new strategy would be needed, other than making more and better Big C's.
That assumes the GTVA economy can support the construction and maintenance of 80+ juggernauts and if that is the case why do the GTVA not have several already? after the colly beat the first sath why was there no grand announcement about building more in order to capitalise on the popularity boost?
Because moar shivans and then Juggernauts bugged out before the GTVA announced more Collys.If battleships could regularly defeat air attacks then that would imply they don't need to try any new strategy, contrary to what mr. tiger suggested.
If the Colossus could have survived against SJ Sathanas juggernauts, than no new strategy would be needed, other than making more and better Big C's.
That assumes the GTVA economy can support the construction and maintenance of 80+ juggernauts and if that is the case why do the GTVA not have several already? after the colly beat the first sath why was there no grand announcement about building more in order to capitalise on the popularity boost?
I can't see the GTVA building more Colossus scale or larger ships after Capella, at least not without some very good reason to do so.
the initial plan (involving TAG and destroyers) was probably way better anyway
The Alliance can't outnumber nor outgun the Shivan Juggernauts. And they need to work within the available technology and budget. So they need to use something powerful and expendable to attack a Sathanas fleet. And they need to be able to mass produce it.
Hmmm... What about attaching an engine and a subspace drive into a Mjolnir RBC? About 10 to 15 of those should be enough to destroy a Sathanas in a reasonable time if they are properly escorted. They don't even need to be manned, since the GTVA already has drone technology.
The GTVA also has ETAK. They may be able to use it to tap into Shivan communications and even to disrupt them.the initial plan (involving TAG and destroyers) was probably way better anyway
The one that failed miserably? :confused:
the initial plan (involving TAG and destroyers) was probably way better anyway
The one that failed miserably? :confused:
are you sure you're not thinking of the ravana attack? i thought they never got to the point of attacking the sathanas with destroyers. (i don't remember TAG being involved in the plan either)
I actually don't remember TAG being involved in any FS2 retail missions aside from Game of TAG and being needlessly available in the loadout of some mishes.
probably thinking BP and the subspace missiles
Your reconnaissance of the Sathanas identified weak points in the Juggernaut's defenses. However, exploiting these weaknesses will require firepower that can be provided only by the main guns of our capital ships. The GVD Psamtik, the GTD Aquitaine, and the GVD Toeris are standing by. Your mission is to lure the Sathanas into position.
[...]exploiting these weaknesses will require firepower that can be provided only by the main guns of our capital ships. The GVD Psamtik, the GTD Aquitaine, and the GVD Toeris are standing by. Your mission is to lure the Sathanas into position.The Sathanas disregarded the GTVA and ran straight for the node.
"The Sathanas decimated our fleet at the Capella node.[...]"A fleet blockading the Capella node was destroyed. The exact size of said fleet is unknown in canon, but judging by the way the Phoenicia was considered absolutely expendable, as well as the presence of a large debris field, it's reasonable to assume the blockade consisted of several destroyers, and possibly smaller warships too.
"This is the Thebes. We have emerged within a large debris field, Command."
Long range torpedoes, fast, really really fast, stealth and with enough punch to pierce through the armour of any warship so it can deliver a couple of kilotons worth of explosives into the inner halls of the target.Untested technology. Besides, nothing in canon indicates such a weapon would be possible with Allied technology. And the Sathanas has AWACS capability.
By the way, has anyone considered my plan? Any opinions?
The GTVA also has ETAK. They may be able to use it to tap into Shivan communications and even to disrupt them.
Hmmm... What about attaching an engine and a subspace drive into a Mjolnir RBC? About 10 to 15 of those should be enough to destroy a Sathanas in a reasonable time if they are properly escorted. They don't even need to be manned, since the GTVA already has drone technology.
By the way, has anyone considered my plan? Any opinions?The GTVA also has ETAK. They may be able to use it to tap into Shivan communications and even to disrupt them.
One of the more intelligent suggestions made at a strategic level but has limited application at the tactical level
Mjolnir is very limited in keeping itself aliveThat's the point. With more hull plating and proper fighter escort, it could survive against Shivan fighters and bombers for long enough to destroy the Sathanas, and/or their escorting fleet. They're expendable, so if they are destroyed you just build more. You can't possibly expect to recover anything you throw at a Sathanas, so you have to plan keeping that in mind.
Mjolnir is very limited in keeping itself alive and is a situation which would be extremely difficult to resolve, strapping the drives to a torpedo would probably make more sense.But even the Helios is too weak for that. And it's costly as hell.
[...]The Helios is prohibitively expensive to produce, thus its deployment is severely restricted.
while the helios is a limited weapon a subspace missile would have looser restrictions on size because you dont have to fit it inside a bomber but a capital ship, meaning you can build it with a bigger motor and bigger warhead.This assumes the high cost and limitations of the Helios are due to its "miniaturization" and not to the very nature of the warhead. This may or may not be the case, we don't have enough canon information to know. But yeah, it's possible.
let's not fool ourselves though, whatever new doctrine gets thrown out there the shivans will be blowing the **** out of it in ~half a campaignSince the GTVA is unable to acquire intelligence regarding the Shivans' nature, their motives, their alliances, and the extent and organization of their forces, that's the only think we can do. As Sun Tzu said: "If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat."
here on hlp we specialize in planning to fight the last war
In BP, it was figured out how to jam beams.
If the GTVA could figure out how to jam Shivan beams without compromising their own, that would be an immense strategic/tactical advantage.
without the BFReds, the sath is just a huge carrier housing hundreds of very angry fighters and bombers, and that can still jump the f*** out and repair its beams somewhere out of reach.Fix0red.
i wrote my strategy based on the in-game demonstration that shivans will happily sit there and let you kill them without withdrawing. but you could disable the sath also with your supar bomber strike (i'm thinking hundreds here, not a few wings. like, the entire fleet's supply.)
a fleet has several destroyers. the friendly fire potential alone is crazy, not to mention the chance of collision and the fact that humans dont cope with environments with many quickly changing variables
a fleet has several destroyers. the friendly fire potential alone is crazy, not to mention the chance of collision and the fact that humans dont cope with environments with many quickly changing variables
This is a problem in the "future"?
unless you find a way to augment the human brain yes because it comes down to the human brain only being able to concentrate on a small number of things at once
unless you find a way to augment the human brain yes because it comes down to the human brain only being able to concentrate on a small number of things at once
We build a fire control tower upgrade on every destroyer :P
Because we don't know how the Shivans organize and coordinate their fleets?
with an additional bomber wing targeting the navigation subsystem the Sath would have been pinned in place for a short while while the shivs repaired the sath's jump capability.Wait... destroying the nav subsystem prevents a ship from jumping out? Are you telling me I've played heaven knows how many FS campaigns over more than a decade without ever noticing this...?
Ooooooh! Now me understands el castellano... :pBecause we don't know how the Shivans organize and coordinate their fleets?
Signals intelligence is effectively peering into the future; that's the thing that makes it useful. The enemy announces what he will do next. Tactical signals intelligence, while still useful, has less lead time to react in and isn't as valuable as strategic signals intelligence.
At the ultimate tactical level, ship to ship and fighter to fighter, it's more useful to keep the peons from talking to each other and their commanders than it is to hear what they're saying. Face to face, jamming is king. Fleet to fleet, reading the other guy's mail is.
also note that the harbinger from FS1 does about 10 times as much subsystem damage as the Helios so that could be readily used to disable the sathanas if any such torpedoes still exist; if not, those could possibly be manufactured too.I know. The Harbinger is right below the Apollo in my list of "Things the Alliance phased out with absolutely no good reason".
Wait... destroying the nav subsystem prevents a ship from jumping out? Are you telling me I've played heaven knows how many FS campaigns over more than a decade without ever noticing this...?
Regarding the Meson Bombs, the freespace wiki states that only 17 of them have been produced so far.Before I go do something I may regret, where in canon is this stated?
Don't know. As I said, that's what the wiki states. I just assumed whoever wrote that had a way to prove it, and it was reliable information.Regarding the Meson Bombs, the freespace wiki states that only 17 of them have been produced so far.Before I go do something I may regret, where in canon is this stated?
I know. The Harbinger is right below the Apollo in my list of "Things the Alliance phased out with absolutely no good reason".You need to get another look at your tables. The Perseus is essentially an Apollo MkII in regard of every single entry of the ships.tbl, aside maybe for the pitch and roll time, which are better by 0.1 sec for the old Ap', but this is compensated by, well, everything else.
Going to guess from memory that it's because they claimed all the remaining meson bombs were being used in the Bastion and Nereid and that you can count the number of bombs packed into these ships in the CB
I think one of the FS1 bombs had fluff text along those lines.Wasn't that the Stiletto's defensive shield?
No. The Promethus in FS1 would scan the target and adjust the power of the weapon itself accordingly. Wasn't from any bomb.Oh, right.
a mobile mjolnir is cannon fodder, no matter what is providing the engines. it would require so much cover to be effective that you'd be better off sending a warship.Fine. Then let's mount that same beam in a cheap cruiser. And then let's hope hundreds of thousands of humans/vasudans will be "patriotic enough" to man them. On the other hand, it's not like the Fenris was able to defend itself, and yet the Alliance used it even in the frontlines.
Mass production of Meson Bombs would likely be the solution, but not as a form of conventional attack, they'd be put in mothballed destroyers in every system ready to seal off any node that Shivans were coming through as quickly as possible, or the system itself from the rest of GTVA space if it is overrun. Of course, this idea doesn't make for very fun campaigns.The GTVA considered sealing off systems as just a temporary measure. I mean, you just can't run from the universal bully every single time he comes looking for a fight. You will end up with no systems whatsoever. Not to talk about what the economy will look like after 3 or 4 systems are cut off.
If for some reason, they could not figure out the location of your fleet or your home planets, then you could eventually whittle them down if you found a tactic that they could not defeat.Are you talking about guerrilla tactics in my Freespace? :p
You need to get another look at your tables. The Perseus is essentially an Apollo MkII in regard of every single entry of the ships.tbl, aside maybe for the pitch and roll time, which are better by 0.1 sec for the old Ap', but this is compensated by, well, everything else.Hmmm... I don't know. There's something in the Perseus that just doesn't cut it for me. I'm not sure if it's that I miss the Apollo's thin profile, or if it's just that I loathe the Perseus missile hardpoints and their "shuffle" when using Tempests.
The GTVA decommissioned the Ap just a little early, but we've got a more than excellent replacement for it right there.
Gimme railguns firing smaller meson projectiles :)GIMME LAZORS FIRIN' LAZORS!!!!!!!1
The only way it'd work is if the Knossos had some way to actively close a node.
the basic attack plan would be something like:-
- Knossos the node you want to enter shivan space through, eg one of the Capella nodes.
- Deploy a small recon force to scout the system to try an ascertain local Shivan forces, and in the case of a unexplored systems locate jump nodes.
- deploy some means of collapsing nodes from systems not controlled by the GTVA, eg a meson packed destroyers.
- Start combat operations to secure the system
- Use the Knossos to seal the node if things go bad
- Should the system be secured rebuild the GTVA's forces and start again
Not canon.The only way it'd work is if the Knossos had some way to actively close a node.
It's not clear this isn't actually a function they're capable of. More than one person has proposed the Knossos' initial state before the Trinity turned it on was equivalent to a door that was deliberately closed.
Not canon.The only way it'd work is if the Knossos had some way to actively close a node.
It's not clear this isn't actually a function they're capable of. More than one person has proposed the Knossos' initial state before the Trinity turned it on was equivalent to a door that was deliberately closed.
The problem there is that, as we learned with the Gamma Draconis Knossos, running one of those things for a little while seems to leave the node at least temporarily stable, even if the Knossos is switched off or destroyed. The only way it'd work is if the Knossos had some way to actively close a node.
the basic attack plan would be something like:-
- Knossos the node you want to enter shivan space through, eg one of the Capella nodes.
- Deploy a small recon force to scout the system to try an ascertain local Shivan forces, and in the case of a unexplored systems locate jump nodes.
- deploy some means of collapsing nodes from systems not controlled by the GTVA, eg a meson packed destroyers.
- Start combat operations to secure the system
- Use the Knossos to seal the node if things go bad
- Should the system be secured rebuild the GTVA's forces and start again
It would go off like this:
- GTVA opens the node.
- Sath fleet jumps in.
- They blow up your Knossos.
- You suddenly feel an urge to regain your faith in your religion of choice.
Firstly assumption you make there is that Shivan forces are on top of the node on reactivation which is not forced to be the case. Also we don't know how much time passed between the Trinity activating the knossos and the Rakshasa entering GD and killing the Vigilant.Since we're talking about the universal destroyers with an almost-unstoppable fleet, I'd rather not tempt luck.
Secondly evidence from the destruction of the Vigilant and the events in GD is that the Shivans send a small recon force through first, cruisers and fighters, and deploy the big stuff later on.Same answer as above.
Thirdly the shivans are never seen attacking the Knossos, seemingly preferring to take the structure intact, I presume because it is a structure that aids subspace transit which FS1 indicates is of more importance to the shivans than planets and physical resources, though again that is speculation in FS canon and might be as a result of the FS1 fleet's roll rather than as a species preference.Granted.
Lastly, the mission briefing for the final mission of FS1 proves it is possible to communicate with ships in transit between nodes from normal space meaning the recon force can warn the GTVA if Shivans pass the other way allowing some warning to ake steps towards sealing the node again.Granted.
Which only proves the Knossos can reopen closed nodes. It doesn't necessarily proves it can close nodes that are already open (and if it can, why didn't the Alliance just closed the first Knossos instead of destroying it?)Not canon.The only way it'd work is if the Knossos had some way to actively close a node.
It's not clear this isn't actually a function they're capable of. More than one person has proposed the Knossos' initial state before the Trinity turned it on was equivalent to a door that was deliberately closed.
Typically i'll try to avoid posting around this time (because my posts' quality is close to spam when i'm tired), but I do believe a command briefing in the FS2 main campaign mentions the Knossos being something along the lines of inactive before the Trinity unleashed some really angry Shivans.
Anyway...
Forgive me if i'm out of line for saying this, as i'm fairly new around here, but I think that we should keep this on topic, this is "Colossus what if?", not "Knossos what if?". :)
Forgive me if i'm out of line for saying this, as i'm fairly new around here, but I think that we should keep this on topic, this is "Colossus what if?", not "Knossos what if?". :)
Firstly assumption you make there is that Shivan forces are on top of the node on reactivation which is not forced to be the case. Also we don't know how much time passed between the Trinity activating the knossos and the Rakshasa entering GD and killing the Vigilant.Since we're talking about the universal destroyers with an almost-unstoppable fleet, I'd rather not tempt luck.
dittoQuote from: headdieSecondly evidence from the destruction of the Vigilant and the events in GD is that the Shivans send a small recon force through first, cruisers and fighters, and deploy the big stuff later on.Same answer as above.
Typically i'll try to avoid posting around this time (because my posts' quality is close to spam when i'm tired), but I do believe a command briefing in the FS2 main campaign mentions the Knossos being something along the lines of inactive before the Trinity unleashed some really angry Shivans.Which only proves the Knossos can reopen closed nodes. It doesn't necessarily proves it can close nodes that are already open (and if it can, why didn't the Alliance just closed the first Knossos instead of destroying it?)
Anyway...
Forgive me if i'm out of line for saying this, as i'm fairly new around here, but I think that we should keep this on topic, this is "Colossus what if?", not "Knossos what if?". :)
Back on topic, I'll risk the conclusion that, since we don't know what the GTVA would have become anyway, the answer to the original question is simply "we can't know".
If I have to speculate, it would have been left active for a few months, just in case the Shivans decided to show up again. Then it would have been decommissioned and put in reserve, since there's no sense in keeping that resource-devouring monstrosity in active service when there are no wars.
Mass production of Meson Bombs would likely be the solution, but not as a form of conventional attack, they'd be put in mothballed destroyers in every system ready to seal off any node that Shivans were coming through as quickly as possible, or the system itself from the rest of GTVA space if it is overrun. Of course, this idea doesn't make for very fun campaigns.The GTVA considered sealing off systems as just a temporary measure. I mean, you just can't run from the universal bully every single time he comes looking for a fight. You will end up with no systems whatsoever. Not to talk about what the economy will look like after 3 or 4 systems are cut off.
There's also a technical impossibility: Systems may have uncharted nodes.
Of course if there's a canon intel intrey somewhere that specifically says 17, then my theory is bust.I looked through the FS2 briefings, and nowhere does it say that the Nereid and the Bastion used all the Meson bombs, so there may be leftovers anyway.
Of course if there's a canon intel intrey somewhere that specifically says 17, then my theory is bust.I looked through the FS2 briefings, and nowhere does it say that the Nereid and the Bastion used all the Meson bombs, so there may be leftovers anyway.
That is possible, though I always had the impression that the node most likely went inactive by itself over the millennia that the Knossos was turned off. In that scenario, the Ancients would have disabled the Knossos, but the residual node stability would have allowed the Shivan invasion to continue. If there was a way to actively "turn off" the node, you'd think that the Ancients would have done so before the Shivans reached their core systems.The only way it'd work is if the Knossos had some way to actively close a node.
It's not clear this isn't actually a function they're capable of. More than one person has proposed the Knossos' initial state before the Trinity turned it on was equivalent to a door that was deliberately closed.
That is possible, though I always had the impression that the node most likely went inactive by itself over the millennia that the Knossos was turned off. In that scenario, the Ancients would have disabled the Knossos, but the residual node stability would have allowed the Shivan invasion to continue. If there was a way to actively "turn off" the node, you'd think that the Ancients would have done so before the Shivans reached their core systems.The only way it'd work is if the Knossos had some way to actively close a node.
It's not clear this isn't actually a function they're capable of. More than one person has proposed the Knossos' initial state before the Trinity turned it on was equivalent to a door that was deliberately closed.
Not canon.
If there was a way to actively "turn off" the node, you'd think that the Ancients would have done so before the Shivans reached their core systems.
Hmmm... What about attaching an engine and a subspace drive into a Mjolnir RBC? About 10 to 15 of those should be enough to destroy a Sathanas in a reasonable time if they are properly escorted. They don't even need to be manned, since the GTVA already has drone technology.
Hahaha.
No.
Been discussed long ago, Colossus would just be Durga and Vajra meat. Piss-poor point defenses, outdated green beams, requires probably at least as much logistic as a whole battlegroup on his own. Just a huge mobile target you can't miss.
Hahaha.
No.
Been discussed long ago, Colossus would just be Durga and Vajra meat. Piss-poor point defenses, outdated green beams, requires probably at least as much logistic as a whole battlegroup on his own. Just a huge mobile target you can't miss.
Besides, the simple truth is that the Colossus is a linebreaker and the task in Sol is a system control job. Jamming the square peg in the round hole.
Besides, the simple truth is that the Colossus is a linebreaker and the task in Sol is a system control job. Jamming the square peg in the round hole.
I would have to disagree there, Sath and Ravana are line breakers, their firepower is concentrated up front so they can hit the blockade hard as soon as they arrive. Colly is more distributed and better suited as a general purpose destroyer killer
Sure, but this is what you need if you're emerging from a fixed point into a prepared and distributed enemy, and moving among them as you engage.
Ahem. If you put your blockade right in front of the exit vector, you're doing it awfully wrong.Besides, the simple truth is that the Colossus is a linebreaker and the task in Sol is a system control job. Jamming the square peg in the round hole.
I would have to disagree there, Sath and Ravana are line breakers, their firepower is concentrated up front so they can hit the blockade hard as soon as they arrive. Colly is more distributed and better suited as a general purpose destroyer killer
As for the BP tangent, be honest. We already know you can't just trade green beams for blue beams. Which means a Raynor easily outguns your Coly. The only thing the Coly has for itself is it's amount of HP. Which, again, is ideal for blockade runs. Which don't happen in the Sol theater.
Why on Earth would the GTVA develop a technology that's completely incompatible with its biggest, most powerful warship, not to mention the entire ****ing fleet?
I'd say it would be cheaper to make an "ugly" out of a Deimos and a blue beam Mjolnir than building Raynors...
And the Colossus had an insane volume which implies lots of room for remodeling, or even making some simple upgrades to allow its BGreens to work as LRBGreens for extended periods of time.
Why on Earth would the GTVA develop a technology that's completely incompatible with its biggest, most powerful warship, not to mention the entire ****ing fleet?
The Threat Exigency Initiative next-generation beam systems from the Aurora Wake onward rely on dedicated meson reactor systems that are incompatible on numerous levels with existing power grids. Refitting existing combatants with these new beam systems would have required labor-intensive, keel-up rebuilds -- at an unacceptable cost in fleet readiness. (Consider these toothing problems analogous to those suffered by the beam-refit Typhons.) They're also extraordinarily expensive and time-consuming to produce and a significant burden on the struggling postwar economy, so the available production runs were slated for new hulls rather than any notional rebuild projects.
I'd say it would be cheaper to make an "ugly" out of a Deimos and a blue beam Mjolnir than building Raynors...
With a limited supply of blue beams available, would you rather slap them on ineffective uglies and risk another Typhon debacle, or use them on brand new spaceframes with the jump drives needed to enact the GTVA's new shock-jump tactical doctrine? Well it doesn't matter what you'd rather, because the GTVA had a pretty strong preference! ;7QuoteAnd the Colossus had an insane volume which implies lots of room for remodeling, or even making some simple upgrades to allow its BGreens to work as LRBGreens for extended periods of time.
Tearing a ship's entire reactor and power system out is an enormous undertaking. Beam overloads with improved heatsinks are a much better solution (and one that was actually implemented in BP for all the ships still using the older Crypt Hammer series beams.)
This is all besides the point because the Colossus is not a useful ship against the Shivans.
Why on Earth would the GTVA develop a technology that's completely incompatible with its biggest, most powerful warship, not to mention the entire ****ing fleet?
The Threat Exigency Initiative next-generation beam systems from the Aurora Wake onward rely on dedicated meson reactor systems that are incompatible on numerous levels with existing power grids. Refitting existing combatants with these new beam systems would have required labor-intensive, keel-up rebuilds -- at an unacceptable cost in fleet readiness. (Consider these toothing problems analogous to those suffered by the beam-refit Typhons.) They're also extraordinarily expensive and time-consuming to produce and a significant burden on the struggling postwar economy, so the available production runs were slated for new hulls rather than any notional rebuild projects.
And you doubt they would've cared if they couldn't use it in the Colossus? How long after FS2 does BP take place, anyway?
As far as we know, the Colossus could have huge maintenance shafts, so moving huge things inside of the ship shouldn't be much of an issue.
Funny thing: No ship has the abilty to eject its reactors into space if they go nuts...
But intersting how every theme seems to drift towards blue planet^^
Inferno is doing well internally and I hope to see everyone talking about it just like this in a year.
It's been said here that the Colossus wouldn't survive probably against the UEF.
However, with an upgrade, I think the Colossus would have done okay against the EA in Inferno had it survived FS2.
i'm pretty sure that after the entire pacific war defined itself by air power the survival of one battleship wouldn't have made battleships as a whole any less dinosaur...ic
It was a dinosaur of a design that would have been utter dead weight against the Shivans post-Capella.
As proven through the WiH campaign itself and my own little experiment. Pre-Capella era ships don't stand a chance against the UEF. With that said, if we faced the UEF instead of the Shivans in Freespace 2. The GTVA probably would of lost.
And then the Colossus takes the field, and it's game over.
QuoteAnd then the Colossus takes the field, and it's game over.
Yes. For the Colossus. Given how good UEF ships are at subsystem sniping, the Colly itself can be rather quickly neutralized as a threat.
Speaking of which the beam jamming always seemed like a silyl concpet to me. How DO you jam a friggin energy beam?The current technobabble is, disrupting the magnetic bottle that keeps the plasma on target.
Or rather doesn't have to make any sense. You can always come up with a different technofluff than BP that still enables for beam jamming if you wish.
Played a campaign once, were a second Colossus was build, which was a crossbreed between what we have now, a logistic ship on its own, plus a mobile berth, able to build ships up to the Aeolus...so a mobile foundry...
In (1), GTVA wins thoroughly, but likely takes major casualties in the early stages of the war, mainly in its fighter corps. If the war lasts longer than a short period, then the GTVA will effectively adapt its fighter tactics and take greater advantage of their capital ship superiority. The UEF fighter forces are seriously lacking in terms of mobility--aside from the three Solaris destroyers, none of their ships can carry a decent fighter complement; most operate from local bases in Sol. Ferrying replacements back to the front lines is a risky, lengthy, and complicated process.And the UEF has the logistical infrastructure to pull it off anyway. They've had it since before the Terran-Vasudan war. The Colossus, on the other hand, requires a small fleet just to keep it supplied and the GTVA has to route everything through a single node.
The UEF will not be able to come up with an effective means of countering beam weapons; it has no AWACS, nor science vessels advanced enough or specialized enough for the task, and converting the few ships up to the task will take significant time. After all, they have to invent the whole process, software, and hardware from scratch. The UEF doesn't have 18 months.The UEF had Paveways, Archers, and torpedoes with twice the range of anything on the Colossus from the onset of the war. It would be disarmed before it even fired a shot.
And then the Colossus takes the field, and it's game over.As already stated, for the Colossus, it is. Even if it survived to BP it would be a resource-hogging relic suited for defense at the Delta Serpentis side of the node at best.
The issue with a colossus refit is the need to strip out and replace both the reactors and power grids with Meson based systems to power the blue beams hence why few FS2 era ships are armed with them. you could probably get close to building a new one in the time it takes.
As for battlegroup, I have not a clue, probably 4-5 corvettes for strike actions and same again cruisers for point defense of the colly.
The issue with a colossus refit is the need to strip out and replace both the reactors and power grids with Meson based systems to power the blue beams hence why few FS2 era ships are armed with them. you could probably get close to building a new one in the time it takes.This point I never understood...if the new beam cannons need meson powered reactors...didn't the Deimos has them or do I mix them up with vasudan reactors?
QuoteThe issue with a colossus refit is the need to strip out and replace both the reactors and power grids with Meson based systems to power the blue beams hence why few FS2 era ships are armed with them. you could probably get close to building a new one in the time it takes.
This would not help. By the time the post-capella GTVA fleet is modernized (or built) to use Blue Beams the Shivans would have, I don't know, purple beams and we would be just as disadvantaged. And by the time we have purple beams the Shivans will have pink beams. (when we have pink beams they will have teal beams, yellow, silver, etc until out of colors)
blue planet is non-canon. looking at the differences between FS1 shivans and FS2 shivans I'd say the shivans are plenty capable of improving their technology.
blue planet is non-canon.
Not to mention the AoA Shivans never fought a second Incursion so it's surprising they're even packing that much heat
Which in turn makes several other assumptions about the Shivans as a society and the nature of the Shivan forces encountered...
We can go around in circles for hours with this, ultimately just about anything can be justified.
On a more general note: if the Colossus had survived, would the GTVA have kept it as is, or would they have tried to put some blue beams on it?
I am not so sure. In AoA we have shivans, all be it from another dimension, which are still operating Capella era tech so that would be a grey area whether they would have more powerful technology on hand.The Shivans in AoA had never fought beam-wielding Terrans before and were caught off guard by the sudden appearance of ships capable of challenging even the Lucifer in one-on-one combat. The BP techroom also notes that the reason weapons like the Kayser seem to outperform the Shivan weapons upon which they are based is that the Shivans only ever seem to be operating at a fraction of their full power. They'll be upgraded if and when they appear in BP again.
On a more general note: if the Colossus had survived, would the GTVA have kept it as is, or would they have tried to put some blue beams on it?
I'm pretty sure that it'd just be immediately mothballed, or else turned it into a space station.
The Collie was already due for several months of drydock repairs after the first Sathanas engagement. After the SD Beast and Sathanas 17, and in the post-Capella context, there would probably be a question of whether it's even worth bringing back to active duty. It would be cool if it got turned into an installation, though, like the Typhon from Derelict or the city from Diebuster.On a more general note: if the Colossus had survived, would the GTVA have kept it as is, or would they have tried to put some blue beams on it?
I'm pretty sure that it'd just be immediately mothballed, or else turned it into a space station.
Keep in mind that quite a bit of time has passed between Capella and AoA, so not so sure about immediately.
QuoteAnd then the Colossus takes the field, and it's game over.
Yes. For the Colossus. Given how good UEF ships are at subsystem sniping, the Colly itself can be rather quickly neutralized as a threat. Sure, she'll still have that 1 million hitpoints that the UEF can't really deal with quickly, but her main armament is a lot less threatening.
Also, you are making several assumptions not backed up by anything. One is that beam jamming would be unavailable. Two, that the UEF actually would go on a full on offensive without logistical preparations. Three, that the raw in-game stats as seen in the tables tell the full story.
The Colossus isn't anywhere near that vulnerable. Even if you factor out the psychological and morale factors, the remnants of the UEF fleet are being engaged by two destroyers, at least several corvettes, and at least a dozen cruisers, along with dozens of fighters and bombers.If the GTVA was willing to commit that many forces in a single engagement the war would have been over ages ago. Have fun speculating what would happen in bpmassivebattle3.fs2 though.
BGreens, especially if overdriven, are horrifyingly powerful against UEF ships (with the sole possible exception of a Solaris). Add in supporting fire from slash beams, bombers, and the damage they took previously, and it's a one-sided fight.It takes 30 seconds to recharge an LRBGreen, three shots to kill a Karuna, and another month of repairs to the Collie for every shot. TerSlash lacks range. GTVA bombers are a joke in BP.
Factor the morale and psychological aspects back in, and things would go downhill for the UEF very quickly in that situation.You seem to keep mentioning this psychology and morale like the Feds are going to soil their pants and discard their training and rational philosophy rather than make dick jokes about it
The Colossus has 240 craft to defend its subsystems, intercept enemy craft, and even disable/destroy enemy ships. And its point defense systems aren't lacking, either. UEF ship weaponry is slow to damage unless a ship's forward-fixed gauss and mass driver cannons can be brought to bear, though it's questionable whether or not they'd make it that far, or succeed in time.And the UEF has far superior fighter craft, superior anti-fighter screens on their warships, anti-subsystem missiles that can't be shot down, fighter-mounted railguns, and enough saturating fire to overwhelm intercept efforts. Furthermore, the Colossus can't launch all its fighters at once, provided it can at all; it has a track record of having a broken fighter bay in critical engagements and a single well-placed warhead would do it all over again.
I've looked at quite a bit of raw stats, and these are the impressions I get; the UEF is not that good at fighting a war, especially an offensive one, while the GTVA shows rather incredible ability to adapt, plan ahead, and be prepared for many scenarios. The UEF also lacks much meaningful combat experience; the GTVA has plenty of it.The only reason the GTVA didn't get kicked out of Sol after the First Battle of Neptune is that the Elders wouldn't allow an operation to secure the node. You're seriously underestimating the UEF.
The only reason the GTVA didn't get kicked out of Sol after the First Battle of Neptune is that the Elders wouldn't allow an operation to secure the node. You're seriously underestimating the UEF.
-snip-
The Colossus has 240 craft to defend its subsystems, intercept enemy craft, and even disable/destroy enemy ships. And its point defense systems aren't lacking, either. UEF ship weaponry is slow to damage unless a ship's forward-fixed gauss and mass driver cannons can be brought to bear, though it's questionable whether or not they'd make it that far, or succeed in time.
In the "Balance of Power" fiction on the BP site. The admirals wanted to assault the beachhead while the Tevs were vulnerable and bloody, the Elders wouldn't let them.QuoteThe only reason the GTVA didn't get kicked out of Sol after the First Battle of Neptune is that the Elders wouldn't allow an operation to secure the node. You're seriously underestimating the UEF.
Wait, where did it say that?
The problem is that the only solid, detailed, proven and accepted post-Capella technobabble is BP's. We seriously lack comparison materials here.
The problem of most of those campaigns is that's they're that, campaigns.
The problem of most of those campaigns is that's they're that, campaigns.
I deliberately did not use the word campaigns.
I said "visions" because lord knows I've released only two campaigns, but I and others have babbled endlessly about the Post Capella possibilities in this very subforum. Again, it reflects poorly on your memory and reading. Not playing.
Endless babble is just that, endless babble. I'm just saying that, IMHO, you can hardly have a constructive discussion without anything tangible to base yourself on. And twelve years after release, there's nothing from FS2 that hasn't be overdiscussed to death.
Instead of being confrontational, you could always post links to some of those conversations, it might clear up the situation without making unpleasant implications about people?
I would hope there are reasons to talk about BP other than intellectual laziness. We just want to avoid talking about BP exclusively. Though it does have the advantage of presenting a clear, coherent vision with all its material in a few easily accessible and cited venues - more people should do that!
Also I don't think it's really necessary to introduce personal attacks on the level of 'intellectual laziness' into a discussion of speculative future history about a video game
But scrapping the Colossus if it did survive would also be negative psychologically for the GTVA. The Colossus had taken 14 years to construct, and was a powerful symbol for the unity of the Terran and Vasudan governments. If it survived Capella, I'm sure the GTVA would parade it around as the "ship that saved us from the Shivans".Or it might have the opposite effect. The Colossus was supposed to be the expensive but absolute solution to the Shivans; Capella turned it into expensive cannon fodder. There's a good chance the public would rather not spend a ton of resources continuing to maintain it over traditional warships, especially with the economic fallout of a flood of refugees from a lost system.
But scrapping the Colossus if it did survive would also be negative psychologically for the GTVA. The Colossus had taken 14 years to construct, and was a powerful symbol for the unity of the Terran and Vasudan governments. If it survived Capella, I'm sure the GTVA would parade it around as the "ship that saved us from the Shivans".Or it might have the opposite effect. The Colossus was supposed to be the expensive but absolute solution to the Shivans; Capella turned it into expensive cannon fodder. There's a good chance the public would rather not spend a ton of resources continuing to maintain it over traditional warships, especially with the economic fallout of a flood of refugees from a lost system.
Logistically, the loss of Capella is going to devastate the GTVA's economy and the ships that escaped are going to be too busy ferrying food and clothing for refugees to toss the military a screwdriver.
What gives you that impression? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just don't get what information you're thinking of. That, and I don't think they NEED to toss the military a screwdriver; the war with the Shivans is over (for now/a while) and the NTF has been thoroughly defeated.
Logistically, the loss of Capella is going to devastate the GTVA's economy and the ships that escaped are going to be too busy ferrying food and clothing for refugees to toss the military a screwdriver.
If the GTVA was willing to commit that many forces in a single engagement the war would have been over ages ago. Have fun speculating what would happen in bpmassivebattle3.fs2 though.The GTVA would be completely willing to commit that many forces in a single engagement--the UEF is invading them, and the GTVA has a proven trump-card up their sleeves--along with the element of surprise with regards to that trump card--making a single huge engagement very much in their favor. The GTVA also hugely outnumbers the UEF forces--sure, they will probably keep a good number of them back for defense in case of Shivans, but I imagine the UEF would not commit the sum of its fleets to this invasion, meaning that you won't have all 3 Solaris destroyers in the field, at the least.
It takes 30 seconds to recharge an LRBGreen, three shots to kill a Karuna, and another month of repairs to the Collie for every shot. TerSlash lacks range. GTVA bombers are a joke in BP....and 3 shots could be brought to bear at once, maybe even from a single Orion. Besides, UEF ships do near-constant damage over time, but it takes a while for that damage to reach critical levels (usually).
Factor the morale and psychological aspects back in, and things would go downhill for the UEF very quickly in that situation.You seem to keep mentioning this psychology and morale like the Feds are going to soil their pants and discard their training and rational philosophy rather than make dick jokes about it
And the UEF has far superior fighter craft, superior anti-fighter screens on their warships, anti-subsystem missiles that can't be shot down, fighter-mounted railguns, and enough saturating fire to overwhelm intercept efforts. Furthermore, the Colossus can't launch all its fighters at once, provided it can at all; it has a track record of having a broken fighter bay in critical engagements and a single well-placed warhead would do it all over again.We're looking at 2 potential scenarios here. One of them does not give the UEF as much of a craft advantage. The other means that the UEF doesn't have beam jamming in the first place, making the likelihood of this scenario occurring very small to begin with.
The only reason the GTVA didn't get kicked out of Sol after the First Battle of Neptune is that the Elders wouldn't allow an operation to secure the node. You're seriously underestimating the UEF.
2) They are midrange to developed worlds that DID contribute a lot to the GTVA economy. Too valuable to simply abandon, but not valuable enough to support themselves. In this case the situation looks really bad in the short term, but maybe stonger in the long term. Look at Epsilon Pegasi on the node map. That system is a businessman's dream, it's the lynchpin for the entire sector. With Capella gone, it would no longer be cheaper products to be shipped in from the established core world economies, and instead some real industrial metal would start to develop in EP (over time). I think in the long term that actually helps the economy become more diverse and independent then it might have been before. Some dangers to national unity within the GTVA certainly, it might develop a kind of galactic north-south divide in identity much like the east-west economic divide in Canada. This *could* be exaggerated by the fact that the GTVA would need to keep heavy garrisons in the area in light of the recent NTF uprising.
Awesome! Someone should make a campaign about that! :PahCwatUdidthar
QuoteThe only reason the GTVA didn't get kicked out of Sol after the First Battle of Neptune is that the Elders wouldn't allow an operation to secure the node. You're seriously underestimating the UEF.
...what? Erm...what? The First Battle of Neptune, IIRC, was a victory for the UEF in that they held off the GTVA attack and inflicted significant ship losses, but they took major ship losses of their own, and the GTVA destroyer got away. The GTVA still had a sizable force at the node, and was capable of sending in major reinforcements in an emergency.
[...]
I think you're seriously overestimating the UEF. Especially in a situation in which they're launching a massive invasion into enemy territory--something in which their military is totally ill-suited for.
Because massive refugee movements are always a strain on an economy. You've got a bunch of people who no longer have homes, jobs, or money, and you have to provide them with food and clothing and shelter, and move them places and help them reestablish themselves, and so forth. And you have to do it without the resources or manufacturing of their old home. And in the GTVA's case, you have to do it with a tattered fleet and an existing refugee problem from the NTF's genocide of Vasudans. Bad situation all around.Logistically, the loss of Capella is going to devastate the GTVA's economy and the ships that escaped are going to be too busy ferrying food and clothing for refugees to toss the military a screwdriver.What gives you that impression? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just don't get what information you're thinking of. That, and I don't think they NEED to toss the military a screwdriver; the war with the Shivans is over (for now/a while) and the NTF has been thoroughly defeated.
Awesome! Someone should make a campaign about that! :PahCwatUdidthar
The Procyon Insurgency (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Pi), campaign set about the situation in Adhara and Procyon post-Capella. Go play it.
Twisted Infinities I have not played though, so I will do that haha.
Twisted Infinities I have not played though, so I will do that haha.
You will be waiting some time.