Poll

Which higher power do you worship?

God and/or Jesus
29 (32.2%)
Allah
2 (2.2%)
Shiva, Vishnu and et al
0 (0%)
Buddah (doesn't really count as worship, I know)
5 (5.6%)
The State (communist/nazi idea IIRC)
0 (0%)
Science
6 (6.7%)
The Almighty Dollar
2 (2.2%)
I don't worship ANY invisible dude(s) in the sky - AKA atheist/agnostic
38 (42.2%)
Bill Gates
2 (2.2%)
Other
6 (6.7%)

Total Members Voted: 88

Voting closed: February 26, 2004, 10:54:00 am

Author Topic: Religion in the modern world  (Read 78690 times)

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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
ye-e-e-es... so do you mean when the world ends (whichever way that might happen, armageddon, big comet, nuke, whatever) because the result of all that evolution has now been extinguished, this causes a rise in entropy and therefore the second law is not violated?

so... does that mean the second law can be _temporarily_ violated?


Exactly.  I can stack up legos to create a beautiful model. I cannot make that model last for eternity.

Though in truth, its not a 'temporary violation'. If you think you see a violation, its because your test sample (ie, the duration over which you observe) is too small.
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Offline Kazan

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Quote
Originally posted by jdjtcagle
sorry to interrupted but I thought somewhere someone explained that evolution there as never been any evidence of a the (oooo...cant remember) I think it's called the third stage of evolution.:confused:

Edit: They have never found a middle species. Only
the species after it that was formed



you're talking about MACROevolution - everyone in their right mind will agree that MACROevolution is in a constant state of flux and nobody has resolved cohesive data in MACROevolution


MICROevolution is what darwin described and what we're talking about


---------
Quick reference in terms of best desribing theories - of facts if noted

Creation of Universe: Big Bang
Creation of Life (ie Life from non Life): Abiogenesis
How Life Changes: [micro]Evolution (ie what darwin describe - FACT)
History of how life has changed: macroevolution (which is in constant flux as new evidence comes as they are gather evidence as fast as possible)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 10:01:36 pm by 30 »
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Offline Stryke 9

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I think there might be a misrepresentation of entropy here. Entropy mostly takes place on the atomic scale- to use a simple example, say you have a dish of saturated solution, which slowly accretes into a crystal. That crystal is inarguably more ordered than the mix it came from, but entropy has still increased, because in the formation of that crystal energy of several varieties was used and dispersed. Water molecules vaporated, electrons broke free, chemical bonds were broken and reformed, little by little massive amounts of energy and matter were spread to the ambient atmosphere. It won't come back. For all intents and purposes, that energy is gone. And the universe is a less ordered place for it.

The same applies to evolution. It's actually debatable that many forms of life are more complex than nonlife here, but for the sake of the argument we'll say they're all far more ordered. Still, you've got vast amounts of physical, chemical, heat and electrical energy expended to yield each generation of life, on an inconcievable scale- far more order is destroyed on the atomic scale than is created on the larger scale.

Kaz: Um, are you sure there's a sound distinction between "macroevolution" and "microevolution"? I always had it that they were the same thing, and the distinction was entirely invented by creationists who wanted to disregard the observable factual basis of evolution. If there's a legitimate distinction made, that's another matter, but I've never heard one.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 10:06:12 pm by 262 »

 

Offline Setekh

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Abiogenesis. That's what I'm interested in. I have some reading to do... can you point to any good sources, Kaz?
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Offline jdjtcagle

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Micro still leads up to the same species in Macro it just descibes how it happens..Right?
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Offline icespeed

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although just because jdjtcagle isnt talking about the same thing doesnt mean its not relevant... and he is, isnt he? i mean, all that second law stuff is applying to macroevolution which is where the species become richer in complexity.

ok, thanks mik, that's definitely something to keep thinking about...

hm, i dont suppose any of you would know anything about receptors, ion channels, agonists and antagonists, would you. we had that in a lecture yesterday and i dont get it.
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Offline Bobboau

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hmm, htis thing is moveing faster than I thought

if we find a 'midlle species' you'll just want one that came between it and the next one, i.e. if we have species A and species E, if we find a link between them, species C, you would say that proves nothing, find  something that goes between species C and E, we later find species D the link between species C and E, there would still be a gap between D and E, unless we found every member of every generation of the liniage.

this sort of reasoning displays a fundimentaly flawed understanding of evolution, namely the whole 'stages' analogy, evolution generaly does not happen in stages, but rather it is a bit easier for us to understand it if we take crossections every few million years and describe the state of a species(s) as a stage, in reality every generation is the next stage in evolution, there are no jumps larger than that.
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Offline icespeed

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i think the usual example is, how come we don't find fossils of mammal-reptiloids or reptiloid-fish, etc? there's prob an explanation for that, but.
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When I graduate, I'm going to be a doctor, and people are going to come to me looking for treatment and prescription drugs, and I'm going to give it to them. Is anyone scared yet?

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Offline Kazan

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jdjcagle: microevolution describes what happens with individual mutations - ie their propagation and what not.  This propagation eventually leads to new species being created.


Macroevolution is looking at the fossil record to find what we can of the history of these changes, there are going to be gaps where we cannot find preserved specimens and it's always changing exactly what it says in light of finding new specimens [this is an example of the honesty of science - oops! we found something that contradicts what we said before, toss out what we had before and find up a new explaination]


==================

Abiogenesis:

first thing on google
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html
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Offline Setekh

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Agreed on the stages explanation, Bob; to think of stages already misses the fact that evolution is carried out on a micro-scale first, nothing that would totally justify a 'stage' description.

However, I want to know where eyes came from, personally. (This is the irreducible complexity thing again, I know, but it still puzzles me.)
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Offline Stryke 9

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Eyes are easy. Photosensitive areas have been around since the first plants, after all, and if you look at planaria and so on you can see how very rudimentary eyes formed. Over time they just got more and more complex- there was no point at which they weren't useful, or improving.

What I don't get is how the dinosaurs grew wings. If you've ever seen the pictures of some of the things between dinosaur and bird, they're just wierd, and they've got what looks like this totally unnecessary flap of skin...

 

Offline Kazan

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Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
Kaz: Um, are you sure there's a sound distinction between "macroevolution" and "microevolution"? I always had it that they were the same thing, and the distinction was entirely invented by creationists who wanted to disregard the observable factual basis of evolution. If there's a legitimate distinction made, that's another matter, but I've never heard one.


when needed the distinction can be made and hence why they both have names
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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
I think there might be a misrepresentation of entropy here.


Yes, I was misrepresenting entropy in order to break it down in terms that the average person can understand. Lego stacking is hardly a rigorous scientific approach to thermodynamics, but it does cast the problem into terms that my mother can understand.
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Offline Setekh

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Photosensitivity, sure. But when does that feed into actual vision and mental comprehension? And the 'more and more complex' assertion doesn't seem to hold enough water to argue for the complexity of eyes in animals now, and the examples we've found from ancient times. Increased complexity seems to have made stages when it comes to the eye, just what Bob has already said does not really happen.

As for the flappy things, maybe they were useful for attracting mates. That's really the only reason I can think of for the formation of initially useless stuff like that.
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Offline Bobboau

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[edit]GOTAMIT this thing is moveing to damned fast!
origonaly posted after Setekh's inital eye question[/edit]

eyes came from nerve endings that were sinsitive to light (as many are sinsitive to other forms of energy)

your next question will be were did light sinsitive nerve endings comde from, well I'm just going to end the cycle before it gets started. one thing leads to another, if you look at all the animals of the world you will find that all of them share many common features, the features are simply in diferent proportions, this is how the vast amount of mutaion/evolution works, very small changes that build up over time and generations.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 10:26:22 pm by 57 »
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Offline icespeed

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or maybe the flappy things had something to do with temperature regulation? oh wait, that goes back to whether dinosaurs were warm-blooded or not doesnt it.

eyes have... lenses, fluids, photoreceptor thingies, optic nerve connection, outer casing, muscle arrangements to change things. these developed from photosensitive areas?
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Offline Bobboau

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yes

"oh wait, that goes back to whether dinosaurs were warm-blooded or not doesnt it."
not realy, weather your hot or cold blodded you'll still need a way to shead exess heat, not that I think that's a particularly good explanation for were wings came from, but at least your thinking along the right track now (not saying thats a totaly daft idea though)
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Offline Kazan

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icespeed: small steps along the way - some molecules change properties when exposed to light/undergo chemical reactions, etc

that would have been the first "eye" and complexity just stepped from there when it happened to help an organism
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Offline icespeed

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but i dont understand where the lenses come in.

(i still think evolution is a stupid idea, but hey, stupider ideas have occurred in reality.)
$quot;Let your light shine before men...$quot;
Matthew 5:16

When I graduate, I'm going to be a doctor, and people are going to come to me looking for treatment and prescription drugs, and I'm going to give it to them. Is anyone scared yet?

$quot;If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.$quot; Romans 10:9

 

Offline Bobboau

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I could step you through it, but I'll have to ask for a starting point, as if I go from eye to were it came from, you'll never allow me to come to an end

how about a worm that has a simple nervus system and some nerve receptors capable of detecting light
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