[Kazan]

I want to see the US drawn up constitution - he could be rejecting it because it has something like the seperation of church and state - so he's pissed that he cannot enact sharia law

I don't put much stock in Al-Jazeera, they are to muslim fundamentalist as fox news is to christian fundamentalists


In a war, collateral damage happens - if a solider INTENTIONALLY killed unarmed civilians they get in trouble

What we expect them to do? Don't make themselves combatants - sometimes arrests are warranted.  Them behaving like that is kinda like psycho americans holding up on the top of a mountain with lots of guns

[Gank]

Sistanis objecting to the constitution because theres a clause in it which gives the Kurds a veto on anything. Afaik hes not actually for a theocracy, likewise most Iraqi muslims.

Al-Jazeera is more like the bbc of the mid-east, its staffed mainly by ex-bbc employees. Theres not much in the reporting to distinguish it from western news services most of the time, but then some people arent capable of looking past the arabic symbols and language.

As for soldiers killing people, the whole ill-feeling in fallujah started when 15 demonstraters were gunned down, or does protesting make you a combatant now?

As for them not resisting the warrent, they dont recognise the authority of the US to issue such warrents, why would they honor one?

[Bobboau]

you know I just looked over that article and it actualy doesn't seem overly biased, in the english print

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Gank
...or does protesting make you a combatant now?

It Depends.  If you protest violently enough that the soldiers feel their lives threatened, they are justified in taking action.  If they intentionally targeted the protesters, it's the other way around.  What you run into though is the previous acts of terrorism have heightened the soldiers awareness of potential threats.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Bobboau
you know I just looked over that article and it actualy doesn't seem overly biased, in the english print

We are in the west, we get the "western" documents. If we want the truth, we need to be in Iraq.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Lonestar


We are in the west, we get the "western" documents. If we want the truth, we need to be in Iraq.

You think the Iraqis get the truth?

I think the constitution gives the minority groups - Kurds and Sunnis* -  the veto, and doesn;'t distribute the power based on population (because that would massively favour the Shia majority).  Shias are pissed off at this - especially because it was the Sunnis that ruled the country and oppressed them during Saddams days.

*apologies if I got Sunnis and Shias mixed up

[Rictor]

They can't NOT get the truth, they're living it.

As for media coverage, if think that over in Iraq, they get even more pro-US bias due to the fact that the US monitors all media channels and censors the ones who are too explicitly anti-American.

However, while we rely only on media (well, most people for the most part), they have the advantage of being there. They talk to people on the streets, their friends and family and they gather and discuss and generally they can get first or second hand information much better (obviously) than we can. This is more valuable than any media source, since you can't spin reality.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Rictor
They can't NOT get the truth, they're living it.

As for media coverage, if think that over in Iraq, they get even more pro-US bias due to the fact that the US monitors all media channels and censors the ones who are too explicitly anti-American.

However, while we rely only on media (well, most people for the most part), they have the advantage of being there. They talk to people on the streets, their friends and family and they gather and discuss and generally they can get first or second hand information much better (obviously) than we can. This is more valuable than any media source, since you can't spin reality.

Ever heard of Chinese whispers?  

Iraq is a somewhat large and confused country, after all.... I find it hard to believe that the word on the street is any more grounded in reality than it would be in any other country.  After all, one of the militia attacks (on Spanish troops) was due to a (wrong) rumour that the Spaniards were holding someone prisoner.

[Bobboau]

it doesn't matter if they know the truth, they are the truth, if they are getting lies and confusion then lies and confusion is what's going on.

[Gank]

Nah the attack was just protesting thje fact that he'd been taken prisioner, not that the spanish had him.

Anyways 8 more US dead and 30 Iraqis, these guys arent doing badly for an untrained militia

[Kazan]

pointing a gun striaght and pulling the trigger is very easy

i would like to know the details of this "protest" that had US soldiers gunning down the protest -- there are a lot of things that get called protests, not all of those are peaceful

[Gank]

Iirc the Iraqis started lobbing stones. Try googling it Kazan, usuallly the best thing to do if you want to know something, rather than waiting for somebody to tell you.

[Kazan]

Gank: then the soldiers should have used _Rubber_ bullets - as those are often used in crowd control like that.  I will agree that lethal force was excessive

[Rictor]

Yeah, but with a major US army presence in most cities and daily shootings, attacks, mortar fire, arrests, searches and all that fun stuff, I doubt very many Iraqis have to rely on rumours and heresay. Look outside your window, and thats the news right there.

[Kazan]

acting on hersay with guns is a sure way to get yourself killed - if you act on hersay with guns you deserve to get yourself killed

[Gank]

Just read this article Kazan and thought it was relevant
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A50227-2004Apr4?language=printer

Got this one on there as well,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53059-2004Apr5.html
kinda sheds a bit of light on the renta-cop thing. Also found one of the guys that died in Fallujah, Michael Teague, was the former Aryan Nations security chief.

[Kazan]

Copy+paste second one please.. the first one came up, but the second one will not

[Gank]

Hmm, strange, gives me a reg screen nopw.

Private Guards Repel Attack on U.S. Headquarters

By Dana Priest
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, April 6, 2004; Page A01

An attack by hundreds of Iraqi militia members on the U.S. government's headquarters in Najaf on Sunday was repulsed not by the U.S. military, but by eight commandos from a private security firm, according to sources familiar with the incident.
   

Before U.S. reinforcements could arrive, the firm, Blackwater Security Consulting, sent in its own helicopters amid an intense firefight to resupply its commandos with ammunition and to ferry out a wounded Marine, the sources said.

The role of Blackwater's commandos in Sunday's fighting in Najaf illuminates the gray zone between their formal role as bodyguards and the realities of operating in an active war zone. Thousands of armed private security contractors are operating in Iraq in a wide variety of missions and exchanging fire with Iraqis every day, according to informal after-action reports from several companies.

In Sunday's fighting, Shiite militia forces barraged the Blackwater commandos, four MPs and a Marine gunner with rocket-propelled grenades and AK-47 fire for hours before U.S. Special Forces troops arrived. A sniper on a nearby roof apparently wounded three men. U.S. troops faced heavy fighting in several Iraqi cities that day.

The Blackwater commandos, most of whom are former Special Forces troops, are on contract to provide security for the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) in Najaf.

With their ammunition nearly gone, a wounded and badly bleeding Marine on the rooftop, and no reinforcement by the U.S. military in the immediate offing, the company sent in helicopters to drop ammunition and pick up the Marine.

The identity of the Marine and two other wounded men could not be established, but their blood was still fresh hours later, when the top U.S. commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, and spokesman Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt arrived to survey the battle zone.

Without commenting at a news conference yesterday on the role of the Blackwater guards, Kimmitt described what he saw after the fighting ended. "I know on a rooftop yesterday in An Najaf, with a small group of American soldiers and coalition soldiers . . . who had just been through about 3 1/2 hours of combat, I looked in their eyes, there was no crisis.

"They knew what they were here for," he continued. "They'd lost three wounded. We were sitting there among the bullet shells -- the bullet casings -- and, frankly, the blood of their comrades, and they were absolutely confident."

During the defense of the authority headquarters, thousands of rounds were fired and hundreds of 40mm grenades shot. Sources who asked not to be identified because of the sensitivity of Blackwater's work in Iraq reported an unspecified number of casualties among Iraqis.

A spokesman for Blackwater confirmed that the company has a contract to provide security to the CPA but would not describe the incident that unfolded Sunday.

A Defense Department spokesman said that there were no military reports about the opening hours of the siege on CPA headquarters in Najaf because there were no military personnel on the scene. The Defense Department often does not have a clear handle on the daily actions of security contractors because the contractors work directly for the coalition authority, which coordinates and communicates on a limited basis through the normal military chain of command.

The four men brutally slain Wednesday in Fallujah were also Blackwater employees and were operating in the Sunni triangle area under more hazardous conditions -- unarmored cars with no apparent backup -- than the U.S. military or the CIA permit.

One senior Blackwater manager has described those killings to U.S. government officials as the result of a "high-quality" attack as skilled as one that can be mounted by U.S. Special Forces, according to a copy of a report on the incident obtained by The Washington Post.

The four victims of that attack, according to Blackwater spokesman Chris Bertelli, were escorting trucks carrying either food or kitchen equipment for Regency Hotel and Hospitality. Regency is a subcontractor to Eurest Support Services (ESS), a division of the Compass Group, the world's largest food service company.

ESS provides food services to more than a dozen U.S. military dining facilities in Iraq, according to news accounts.

Blackwater, a security and training company based in Moyock, N.C., prides itself on the high caliber of its personnel, many of whom are former U.S. Navy SEALs. It has 450 employees in Iraq, many of them providing security to CPA employees, including the U.S. administrator, L. Paul Bremer, and to VIPs visiting Iraq.

Blackwater has applied to occupy a former MIG air base near Baghdad as a counterterrorism training facility for Iraqi forces. The training range will mirror the 6,000-acre Moyock site, which is frequented by U.S. law enforcement and military personnel.

And a pic of them posing on the roof

[Liberator]

That's hilarious!

[aldo_14]

NB: Apparently the SAS is facing up to losing a large number of it's troops as they go to the better paying private security firms / mercs.