Author Topic: Fallujah, Fecal Matter, and the fan  (Read 28529 times)

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Offline ionia23

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The conspiracy theories regarding that are pretty obvious in nature.  Yet one more thing to talk smack about America over, nothing more.
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Offline Rictor

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If there was such a thing, I would very much like to have a look at it. Voting records are about the most objective proof of a politician's idealogy available.

 

Offline Rictor

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Also, once you bring up the word conpiracy theory, you instantly discredit whatever cause you applied the word to. It doesn't matter it there is evidence or not, once you say "conspiracy theory" everyone just closes their minds and thinks "yeah right buddy, put on your tinfoil hat". You could say that there are a lot of cons[iracy theories that I went to the store to buy some milk, and once they hear those magic words people would not believe it, no matter what evidence was given. Whether you are doing it intentionaly or not, thats what you're doing so please just shut up about it.

You have seen no evidence that did not come from highly biased sources. There is tons of proof that no genocide occured, from Western journlists, organizations etc, and yet you intentionally don't want to hear it. Your positions is to belive the official sotry regardless of say, past experience, and anyone who deviates 1 degree is a crackpot. With people like that, there is no need to propaganda, you police yourselves quite well.

There is no "consipracy theory". From the beggining of the civil war in 1990, Serbia has been the whipping boy simply because a whipping boy was needed. Bosnia and Croatia commited the same acts that Serbia did during the civil war, and yet no one thinks of laying the blame at their feet. The KLA was (in '99) and is today linked to various Islamic fundementalist groups including, you guessed it, al Queda. Where do you think they got their oney from? Support from Islamic fundamentalis and the heroin trade.

A few weeks ago, the KLA began expelling non-Albanians from Kosovo. This has been well documted by the UN officials on the ground, though the way CNN & Co tell it, people get the impressin that its a 2-sided battle. The Serbs aren't fighting back because the moment the Serb army crossed into Kosovo to protect the Serbs and other living their, everyone would be screming genocide again.


And just for future reference, Yugoslavia under Tito was not weak or unimportant. It was at the head of the Non-Aligned movement, while such a thing existed, and it was of immense importance to both the US and the Soviets. It was on the border between Eastern and Western Europe, and a strategicly valuable spot.

 

Offline Rictor

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THE SPECTATOR (UK), Saturday, November 20, 1999
"I Was Right About Kosovo"
John Laughland



"The guy's a complete asshole." Spectator readers, who are simple souls, may be unfamiliar with the sophisticated legal terminology and carefully weighed judicial arguments employed by the Spokesman for the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, the body upon which all future international law and civilisation is to be based. Yet this was how Paul Risley described your correspondent when confronted with a recent article in this magazine on the low body count in Kosovo. In it, I alleged that the number of Albanians massacred by Serbs had been inflated by Nato propaganda and that the International Criminal Tribunal is so deep inside Nato's pockets as to make kangaroo courts look like models of due process.

Last week, the Tribunal's Prosecutor, Carla del Ponte, made a statement to the United Nations in New York to counter the article's allegations. She claimed that the findings of the forensic investigators were helping to establish both the total number of dead and the overall pattern of the killing. In fact what the report establishes is both the overall pattern - and indeed the detail - of the deception practised by the leading Nato governments.

In May 1999, at the height of the attacks on Yugoslavia, the US State Department published a detailed report entitled "Erasing History, Ethnic Cleansing in Kosovo." Its political impact was immense, contributing to the indictment of Slobodan Milosevic and the other Yugoslav leaders. The report is still available on the State Department's web site, suggesting that it remains authoritative. But what the Tribunal's findings now prove is that the report contained little but the wild imaginings - or deliberate lies - of the men and women whose fingers are on the buttons of the world's most powerful military alliance.

[...]The total body count reported by the Tribunal is 2,108.

Even if one assumes that all these people are Albanians murdered for ethnic reasons by Serbs, this is 1/5 of the number alleged by the Foreign Office in June; 1/50 of the number alleged by William Cohen in May; and 1/250 of the number suggested by the State Department in April. However, even this assumption is unjustified.

First, in the vast majority of cases, the bodies were buried in individual, not mass graves.

Second, the Tribunal will not say what sex or age the alleged victims are, let alone what nationality. There were many causes of violent death in the province: over 100 Serb and Albanian civilians have been killed in terrorist attacks by the Albanian KLA since its insurrection began in 1998; 462 Serb soldiers and 114 Serb Interior Ministry police were killed during the war; the KLA, which had tens of thousands of men under arms, also sustained casualties, as death notices in Kosovo towns announcing Albanian men killed in combat testify; and finally, hundreds of Serb and Albanian civilians were killed by the Nato bombing. (For that matter, over 200 hundred people have also been killed since the war by stepping on unexploded Nato cluster bombs.) Many of the excavations have been carried out in what are obviously Christian cemeteries (with gravestones rather than posts) while several corpses have been wearing blue (i.e. Serb police) uniforms.

The Prosecutor insists that this figure is not a final body count nor even a full census of the dead. As she says with remarkable candour, her office's first priority has been "to gather evidence relevant to the criminal charges against President Milosevic and other leaders" - in other words to look the other way if atrocities are committed by Albanians against Serbs or gypsies. (To underline the organic connection between the Tribunal and Nato, indeed, the former's web page has a link to the latter's.) Instead, she implies that the final body count may be higher when examinations of the remaining "crime scenes" resume in the spring. Paul Risley claims the exhumations have been shelved "because the ground is frozen". However, there has been no frost in Kosovo and the ground is not frozen: on the day this article was written (15th November) it was raining heavily in the province and the temperature was 10 degrees Centigrade. The exhumations must, therefore, have been interrupted for some other reason and the suspicion must be that the winter break is an attempt to kick the embarrassing question of the low body count into touch for a few months, in the hope that people will soon forget about it.

The pattern which is emerging, in other words, is not so much of a systematic attack on the Albanian population as such - Nato's declared casus belli - but rather of a low-level civil war with casualties on both sides, a situation greatly aggravated by Nato's attacks. The fighting was of an utterly different scale from that in either Bosnia or Croatia. Yes, crimes were committed by Serbs during the war, as they indisputably have been by Albanians before and after it. But the most accurate depiction of the nature of the Kosovo conflict is probably that given by a series of court rulings in Germany between January and March of this year, when a series of applications for political asylum by Kosovar Albanians were rejected because political persecution could not be proven. On 12th January 1999, for instance, the German Foreign Ministry gave the following opinion to the Administrative Court in Trier: "An explicit political persecution of the Albanian population cannot be established, even in Kosovo. The actions of the security forces are not directed against Kosovo Albanians as an ethnically defined group but instead against military opponents and their real or supposed supporters." Now, that's what I call legal reasoning.

 

Offline Bobboau

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I was talking about Yugoslavia at the time we bombed it,
and the only people I've heard evedence that there was no genocide were ether Serbs themselves or had some huge 'I hate America and look for anyhting I can to make a piss storm about it' thing going on.
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Offline Rictor

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Truly, everyone who disagrees with you is anti-American and can thus not be trusted. I'm not going to waste my breath on this. You don't want to believe what you don't want to believe and nothing I say or do or any evidence I present can change your mind.

I sincerely hope that someday, you will be subject to grave injustice and be unable to prove it. I hope with all my heart that you are accused to something horrible, and will live the rest of your life with the knowledge that you are innocent, and yet no one will believe you.

But thats wishful thinking, eh? History is writen by the victors.

Those of you with any interest in the subject; feel free do PM me. I'm not going to fight this in thread after thread after thread, because its simply not worth it.

Cheers

 

Offline Bobboau

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I didn't even want to go here, becase my felings are the same about you
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline 01010

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Pff. I have a solution to everything, I'm going to kill every last ****er on the planet and dance on your bodies.

Or, I may kill myself, that might be quicker.
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
Well, that made...no sense at all.

And Woolie, I think you have it the wrong way around. These guys aren't YOUR foes, you're THEIR foes. Remeber, its their country, and they have more right to defend it than you have to invade it. Don't mistake right by force for right by justice.


Sometimes we need the force to get the justice. It's not like these guys will turn themselves in. We'll only use deadly force if they resist our attempts to bring them to justice and restore order to the city. The only reason we're even using soldiers is that police don't quite cut the mustard when faced with such a powerful and dangerous foe.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline Kazan

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Rictor: you know what - i personally know some serbs that would argue against you - serbs from families that didn't move to another country before the supposed atrocities takes place

if bobboau and I don't trust you that generally means something - I am one of the most objective americans you're ever going to meet - you are making extraordinary claims and accusations and yet have nothing to back it up other than opinions by other people who could easil have a bias.


When you make extraordinary claims you need extraordinary evidence - bobboau and I are not the kind of people who instantly call someone anti-american for disagreeing, being able to disagree is _very_ american - it is gauranteed by our constitution, though some of our countrymen forget this.  No, when bobboau or I call someone antiamerican it's because that person is displaying a slavering-at-the-mouth-bias
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Offline Kazan

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"They're not your foes! you're there foes!" that idoesn't make sense - because it takes too people to be foes

sometimes violence is neccesary - these people are CHOOSING to become combatants when they could wit another two months and have their government handed back over to them, they could wait until then to see if it's just going to be a puppet government or if we're being honest, like we can be from time to time.  

**** is sticking to his June 30th date- but I must ask myself why he's doing this. There is a simple answer: if we're not in the process of pulling out by the time the election rolls around he is in grave danger of iraq becoming his 'political Vietnam' - but if he pulls out too soon he's going to have all the major generals protesting.  So no matter what at this point **** is screwed - we should all rejoice for that -- maybe we can get someone in office that will go back to being civil with the other nations of the world
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Basically, the situation in Fallujah boils down to this: if people just live their lives and not make trouble, we'll stay out of their way. If they incite or commit acts of violence, the hammer goes down. The terrorists and Ba'athist supporters in Fallujah have refused to play nice, so now they get the ultimate time-out. If they still don't get the message, we'll give them one hell of a "spanking". Psychologists and parents call it "behavior modification". And it's been proven throughout history to work.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline Rictor

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Woolie, American soldiers in Iraq are more criminal than tje resistance fighters killing them. Its simple, you don't have a right to be there.

If Iraqis killed four Americans while IN America, it would be a different story, but you're in Iraq. They not commiting crimes, they're fighting the invaders. Every country on Earth has the right to fight invaders.

_______

As I said, the handover in June is only a clever charade. Americans have made certain "laws" which the new government is powerless to overturn. Add that to the fact that the US will stay in control of the Iraqi military, and that the new government will be appointed not elected, and you've got yourself a nice 'ol puppet regime.

Did you know, for example, that an old Saddam era law banning unions is being kept in place by the US. This is one of those "edicts" which cannot be overturned by the new government. Let me say that again, unions are illegal in Iraq. Champions of freedom, eh?

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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We did them a huge favor by throwing off Saddam's regime. The resistance movement is a very small percentage of the Iraqi population and almost entirely concentrated within the Sunni Triangle. Most of Iraq WANTS these murderers gone.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline Rictor

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Yes, but they want you gone even more. My enemie's enemy is my friend. Why do you think that the Iraqi people are hiding the insurgents, supporting them, joining them and generally being very helpful to their cause.

Because they wan't the US out. Thats their first priority.

And, no, its not just the Sunnis anymore. The Shia are getting into the fight bigtime, via al Sadr and his followers. Check the bodycount in the past few days. You'll notice that it is consistant with a great many new people joining the fight against America.

 

Offline karajorma

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Rictor do you claim that the Serbians never commited any form of genocide or ethnic cleansing in Bosnia too or just in Kosovo?
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline Woolie Wool

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
And, no, its not just the Sunnis anymore. The Shia are getting into the fight bigtime, via al Sadr and his followers. Check the bodycount in the past few days. You'll notice that it is consistant with a great many new people joining the fight against America.


Al-Sadr is an Iranian puppet. There are a LOT of vested interests involved in the Shi'a rebellion.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline vyper

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Someone's really gotta get this government sorted out. Acting in British interests? My arse. Fekin pretend moderate socialist is Blair. Arse arse arse arseeeee!

Okay so I'm pissed off.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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What the hell does your rant have to do with Iraq, Fallujah, and the uprising there?
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline vyper

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Because my country has troops involved because of that arse called Tony Blair. Thats why.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14