[Grey Wolf]

First, the oldest active duty warship in the world (USS Constitution AKA Old Ironsides):


And second, the class of submarine my dad served on (Sturgeon-class):

[an0n]

Originally posted by Shrike
Of course in hindsight we can probably agree the Bismarck would have done more for the Nazi war effort if its metal had gone into making U-boats.

Only if you ignore the psychological aspect.

The Bismark was the AK-47 of the waves. It couldn't take out a serious collection of ordinance, but it could make the whole Merchant Navy keep its head down and had the firepower to destroy anyone who decided to be a hero.

[Nico]

Originally posted by Admiral Nelson
Note B turret in the drawing (based on the findings of the Cameron expedition and eyewitness testimony).Its too bad the drawing is so tiny, but the turret was knocked off the barbette. You can (barely) make out how askew it is in the image. I didn't mean entirely knocked off the ship. The second painting depicts the ship before its end state in the first pic; notice A turret still operational.

To me, knocked out meant "out of the ship", sorry for the misunderstanding. But you misanderstand me too: I didn't mean the turrets were intact, of course the barrels were crushed, etc. but at no point did a shell go through a turret and made a hole in it.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Tiara
Haha, your ignorance is too great Redmenace

And Venom *thumbs up*

Ignorance is bliss
               -The Matrix

[Splinter]

Originally posted by redmenace

Ignorance is bliss
               -The Matrix

I sincerily hope you dont actually belive that the matrix coined that.

however you seem pretty blissfull

[Fineus]

Theres so much that is funny here.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Splinter


I sincerily hope you dont actually belive that the matrix coined that.

however you seem pretty blissfull

well I am sure it originated else where. But, instead of getting into an argument with Tiara(probably end up comparing her to communists this week), I thought I would just rebuttle with a joke than something else. But, I still think that the sinking of the Bismarck was symbolic only. The U-Boats were far more effective in actually harming England by destroying shipments from the states than the Bismarck ever was or would have been. However, that set aside, the sinking of the Bismarck was probably severly demoralizing blow to the Nazi Germany Navy as well as the Nazi German Military in General.

[JarC]

Originally posted by redmenace
But, I still think that the sinking of the Bismarck was symbolic only. The U-Boats were far more effective in actually harming England by destroying shipments from the states than the Bismarck ever was or would have been. However, that set aside, the sinking of the Bismarck was probably severly demoralizing blow to the Nazi Germany Navy as well as the Nazi German Military in General.

You are correct in assuming that it was a demoralizing blow, but it sure as hell wasn't symbolic...the sinking of the Bismarck and her sistership the Tirpitz were vital to the Allied Fleet, if these ships ever had a chance to be used in full effect, things might have looked a whole lot different.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by JarC
You are correct in assuming that it was a demoralizing blow, but it sure as hell wasn't symbolic...the sinking of the Bismarck and her sistership the Tirpitz were vital to the Allied Fleet, if these ships ever had a chance to be used in full effect, things might have looked a whole lot different.

Yes if you wanted to bombard the coast of England, but I don't think they would have gotten close enough to England and not be bombed by the RAF. Maybe as a HQ center for U-boats it might be effective. But personally lots of smaller ships would be far more effective against shipping and the Royal Navy. Personally the Germans put their eggs all in one basket. I feel they should have built aircraft carriers instead. In WWII the Germans were concerned with the old technology and dogma of Bigger is Better. In forsight we see the evolution of naval warfare in the pacific, and realize that things were changing.

[Killfrenzy]

Germany had a massive naval building plan that was halted by WWII. If it had been compelted (around 1946) then Germany would have had a navy to rival the Royal Navy, along with a set of 16" gun Battleships.

Remember that as far as everyone was concerned, big bad battleships were the order of the day. Carriers had yet to prove themselves as viable alternatives as that had to wait until Midway.

Shrike, yes I know the NC was laid a year later than Bismarck, the point is that she's got 16" guns which is an unfair comparison. Besides, she's an American warship and the Kriegsmarine wasn't designed to deal with US warships. Germany designed their heavy units to raid merchant shipping and still be able to deal with heavy units of the Royal Navy. That meant essentially 15" guns for the Bismarck and Tirpitz as with both the QE class and the 'R' class, the RN had around 10 15" battleships sitting around that could be used.

Do not underestimate the Warspite - she certainly smacked the crap out of Italian ships in the mediterranean, hitting the Guilio Cesare at 21km in 1940. Also, she fought at Jutland and had her steering jammed resulting in her circling the German fleet as a target! However, thanks to her excellent construction she suffered little actual damage.

Warspite vs Bismarck is a comparable matchup because of the fact that Bismarck was designed to deal with ships like Warspite and not the North Carolina.

It would have been a different story if the 'H' class had ever been built.....

[pyro-manic]

Originally posted by Killfrenzy
Germany had a massive naval building plan that was halted by WWII. If it had been compelted (around 1946) then Germany would have had a navy to rival the Royal Navy, along with a set of 16" gun Battleships.

Heheh - did you ever hear about Hitler's "super-battleship"? She was never built, never named, I don't even think the design was ever finished. All I know is, she was meant to have something like 9 21" guns, and have a displacement of over 100,000 tonnes.... Now that would be worth seeing. I heard about her in some documentary about battleships. Mentioned about how there were meant to be 10 Tirpitz-size battleships built, etc, and said about this monster.

Also, there were plans for a German carrier, but it was either scrapped on the slipway, or converted to something else. Can't remember exactly...

EDIT: Ah, the German one was the H44 - 20" guns, 140,000 tonnes displacement. Found a site about 'em here .

[CmdKewin]

Well well An interesting thread.

My personal favourite




JIN - Tone Class




Have a look here too: http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

[Shrike]

Originally posted by an0n
Only if you ignore the psychological aspect.

The Bismark was the AK-47 of the waves. It couldn't take out a serious collection of ordinance, but it could make the whole Merchant Navy keep its head down and had the firepower to destroy anyone who decided to be a hero.

40 or 50 extra U-Boats (if you scrapped the Tirpitz as well) would have gone a lot further towards closing the Atlantic to merchant shipping.  That would probably have been an increase of 50% in the number of front-line U-Boats in 41.  That's more than worth any psychological factor the Bismarck may have had going for it.

Or to put it another way, the Royal Navy had a large number of warships specifically designed to destroy other surface ships - Germany had almost none.  Why play the RN's game?

[Nico]

It's not like they would have been able to make those 40 U-boats if they didn't make the Bismarck, so this statement is quite futile, don't you think?

[pyro-manic]

Ooh, another favourite of mine - HMS Vanguard. Commissioned in 1946, just too late for the war. All-round kick-ass ship. It's "weakness" was considered to be it's 8 15" guns (!!) - the same as the Bismarck and Tirpitz.

Pictures here - not great quality, but they're good enough to see what she looked like.

[Killfrenzy]

Originally posted by pyro-manic


Heheh - did you ever hear about Hitler's "super-battleship"? She was never built, never named, I don't even think the design was ever finished. All I know is, she was meant to have something like 9 21" guns, and have a displacement of over 100,000 tonnes.... Now that would be worth seeing. I heard about her in some documentary about battleships. Mentioned about how there were meant to be 10 Tirpitz-size battleships built, etc, and said about this monster.

Also, there were plans for a German carrier, but it was either scrapped on the slipway, or converted to something else. Can't remember exactly...

The 'super battleship' was the 'H' class I mentioned. The final plans were to have been a set of 16" guns, and there were to be five of them.

The German carrier was the Graf Zeppelin. She was completed but was never used.

Useful information about the 'Z Plan' can be found here: http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/zplan/index.html

[Shrike]

Originally posted by Nico
It's not like they would have been able to make those 40 U-boats if they didn't make the Bismarck, so this statement is quite futile, don't you think?

Why not?  Put the resources spent on building the Bismarck into building U-Boats.

[vyper]

HMS Warrior

[Nico]

Originally posted by Shrike
Why not?  Put the resources spent on building the Bismarck into building U-Boats.

Because you need the drydocks, the people ( it's not like you can atke all the people working on the Bismarck and put them working on a submarine, need more engine specialists on 40 subs than on one ship, whatever its size, for exemple, there's domains of expertise, not numbers alone ), coz it's probably not that easy to build a sub ( nothing prooves it'd be faster to build 40 subs than one cruiser ), coz you need to have the crew to man those 40 subs ( and that's a way different league ), and probably for many other reasons I could not think of. That's not a RTS, it's not at easy than just deciding where you're gonna put credits an waiting for the order to come out of factory, fully equiped and in running order.

[Petrarch of the VBB]

That said, the Bismarck had a crew of what, 1600?
Divide that by 40 and you get 40, which was the crew of most U-Boats, iirc, if not more.