[ionia23]

Originally posted by Kalfireth
You should practice what you preach - or not preach at all. Even school children pick up on the fact that if an adult does something (despite them telling the child not to do it) then the child might gingerly try it as well.

Govern the world when you can govern yourselves. A moment before and you go from knowing adult to playground bully. If the human race is to survive the next ten years they'll have to realise a few hard to deal with truths.

We do practice what we preach as best we can.  Sometimes we **** up royally, but it's easy to recognize those.  It's harder to recognize when we do something right.

And we govern ourselves quite well.  If we truly wanted legendary retaliation, we'd do it.  We haven't.  I'm hoping someone will acknowledge that.

[Fineus]

I could stab my neighbour for running over my dog... I should be congratulated that I haven't.

Right?

(BTW, not trying to pick on you with this... just trying to point out that you - as a country - are not as right as you think you are. I'm not saying England is right either - it's not.)

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Kalfireth
I could stab my neighbour for running over my dog... I should be congratulated that I haven't.

Right?

(BTW, not trying to pick on you with this... just trying to point out that you - as a country - are not as right as you think you are. I'm not saying England is right either - it's not.)

naw, I don't take it personally.  See your PM box for a response on this.

[Rictor]

So tell me, how would you differentiate someone who is generally good, but ****s up every now and then, from someone who is generally bad, but does some good now and then? What is the defining quality?

[.::Tin Can::.]

I find a death as gruesome as this, and then saying you did it in the name of your religion thinking you have done something RIGHT, makes me wonder what the hell these guys smoke to keep them going. If you've seen the video hes alive when they do it and they cleave his head right off. Nasty... terrible.

I find anyone who does something as sick as this should be hunted down and shot on sight. They would do the same to you first chance they got.

[Flipside]

That's the problem Tin Can, would you say the same of the American Soldiers who tortured people to death in Iraq? They may not have done it on camera, but they still did it.

This man is sick, and I suspect that Bin Laden will be very displeased with his lieutenant to be honest, it's actually served to distract people from the whole torture affair.

[Grey Wolf]

Time for some random perspective: The western nations have done far worse.

For example, the execution used in England for the crime of treason was to be hung, disembowled, beheaded, and torn apart by four horses (this practice was abolished in 1821).

For another example, take a look at the Spanish Inquisition.

Not that any of this was right, but it does provide perspective.

[Rictor]

If you want worse actions by Western nations, no need to go back hundreds of years. Vietnam, Korea. Hell, just take a look at US military stations in foreign lands. Go back to the beggining of the century (the last one, not the 21st) and it gets worse. Colonialism, thats the name of the game.

Not that others haven't done worse that this. But it is absurd to judge someone based on the worst offences of someone else.

[mikhael]

I'll be glad to come to conclusions about the things you say any time you'd like, Rictor. You might not agree with my conclusions, but hey, they are based on what YOU say.

I mean, after all, you seem to come to random, baseless off the wall conclusions of what I believe from what I say (usually in direct contradiction to what I've actually said, but no matter).

[.::Tin Can::.]

I know there are soldiers who are complete bastards and if I found out under my command that some of them were torturing or raping someone I would have them court marshaled, and if I cant find a transport fast enough I would tie him up, gag him, and throw him in an APC along with the rest of his filth and then move on. The military of America doesnt reflect the people of America. Most people think that if the miilitary is evil sons a *****es, all the American Citizens are JUST as bad.

[mikhael]

The military is not full of evil sons of *****es. It has its bad apples, to be sure, but it is NOT full of them.

[Grey Wolf]

I'm assuming it is roughly reflective of world society as a whole. Hence, you get people from all walks of life, and all sorts of personal defects, such as the ones exhibited here.

Most people don't seem to understand this concept, as shown by Tin Can's comments, and also a good deal of the comments posted on this board during the Catholic Church's recent scandal.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Some people seem to live in fantasy worlds. I can guarantee that no matter how hard you hope and pray, in war, some people will NOT play by the rules. It happens everywhere, whether you hear it or not, every military will and most likely has done it, and to think otherwise is to bull**** yourself. The people who do it are sick, violent bastards but, as sad as it is, I expect this crap to happen.

It's horrifying when civilians are punished because militaries cant follow simple instructions and treat people humanely (i.e. not torture and kill them) but I think the guys who would do something as sadistic as hack a persons head off, videotape it, and post it on the internet are worse, ESPECIALLY if they try and excuse it with the 'religion card'

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Flipside
That's the problem Tin Can, would you say the same of the American Soldiers who tortured people to death in Iraq?

When?  Where?  I see lots of accusations, but little evidence.  Where is the supposed torture?

Just so you know(Merriam-Webster definition):

Torture: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

So a few dudes were forced to get naked and be subservient to a woman.  BIG @^#%#*@(#&$^ DEAL!  They are killing US servicemen and MURDERING innocent bystanders who have committed no crime greater than trying to help put the G$% D@&^@# F*&(*&ING COUNTRY BACK TOGETHER.  Let's get some perspaective here folks.

Do I support what happened at Abu Grayib(or however the hell it's spelled), not in the least.  But those MFs are alive and will likely live a long time.  The Sons of *****es are killing people in retaliation over some kind of perceived insult.  We(the Coalition) need to take a lesson from the Israelis for dealing with the bastard Militants.(Notice the distinction, I didn't say Islamics, only their Militant Bastard cousins they secretly support when they think we aren't looking.)

[Bobboau]

the thing is, from the photos it truely looks like they were affording sadistic pleasure from what they were doing, wich is how it can be classified as Torture, it wasn't so much that they wer humiliated but that it was (at least aperas) simply done for the sport of it.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Liberator
Do I support what happened at Abu Grayib(or however the hell it's spelled), not in the least.  But those MFs are alive and will likely live a long time.  The Sons of *****es are killing people in retaliation over some kind of perceived insult.  We(the Coalition) need to take a lesson from the Israelis for dealing with the bastard Militants.(Notice the distinction, I didn't say Islamics, only their Militant Bastard cousins they secretly support when they think we aren't looking.)

Percieved insult? Invading their country, bombing their cities, locking up civilians without due process, murdering innocents by the thosands? Those are just percieved grievanced right? They have a right to fight an occupying power, its THEIR god damn country.

Let me ask you, if Russia suddenly invaded the US, I take it you would welcome them with open arms. And if their started killing and detaining Americans, you twidle your thumbs and do nothing? Don't think so.

The military isn't exactly known for their honesty and openness. Thats why the Taguba report had to be leaked, thats why the photos had to be leaked, thats why the Red Cross report was kept hushed. Even after the story was all over the news, US military personnel were told it would be illegal to read the Taguba report and not to visit Fox News (ha, thats a first). Can you honestly believe that the army would have come clean had the story not been leaked, being the nice chaps thats they are? I am being asked to take their good word on the claim that this was isoated and not systemic, which I just can not do.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by mikhael
The military is not full of evil sons of *****es. It has its bad apples, to be sure, but it is NOT full of them.

Damn you, I just had to go and dig this up. You took 5 minutes of my life and want them baaaaack.

Liberator, let me tell you a little story about US Soldiers and how 'honorable' we are. See, I was stationed, among other places, in Japan. Whilst I was there, three marines kidnapped, raped, and murdered a twelve year old girl. Whilst I was there, two sailors stabbed their wives to death. One airman drowned his child, intentionally, at the base pool. American servicemen stole cars from japanese parking lots and sold them to japanese chopshops. US sailors on one base beat two guys from the JMSDF (Japanese maritime self defense forcE) so badly that one ended up in a coma (he eventually recovered) and both were returned to civilian life on medical discharges. At the same air base, more than 120 sailors were put out of the navy and remanded to civilian authorities for making and selling crystal meth.

EVERYONE illegally sold food and clothing on the black market. See, food at the base commisary and clothing at the base exchange were sold at US prices. The japanese have to import the same stuff from the US and it gets taxed by the japanese government. We could sell a $50 pair of Levi's for $300 easy. Rice? Man we got 25lb bags of rice for $4.50. The japanese paid $55 for the same bag. Cigarettes and alcohol were likewise excellent items.

All of that happened in peace time, away from anything remotely like a danger zone. If we soldiers and sailors do that kind of **** in a friendly country, I don't think we'd hesitate to do far worse in a hostile land to anyone who got in the way.

I'm not saying all soldiers and sailors are animals, but enough of us have impulse control problems, that I have absolutley no doubt that, training or no, religion or no, laws or no, they'll do absolutely EVERYTHING described by Mr. Kerry. Combat, especially the kind of combat seen in Vietnam, does terrible things to a man's sense of self and sense of civilization.

Incidentally, I asked my father, a vietnam veteran who doesn't like to discuss his time there, if any of what Mr. Kerry said was true. Like Mr. Kerry, my father has a purple heart, only his has several stars on it. He just looked at me when I asked, and said of it was. He won't tell me which parts though. He's never been keen about talking about the stuff he saw in the jungle.

[Nico]

Originally posted by Liberator
Balala

They rapped women. You do know what happens to rapped women in muslim countries, right?
Also, you do know that psychological torture exists?
No, what would you know, all comfy in your house. You have no idea how hard this would be, living 24/24 in some dirty room, with soldiers insulting you all day long, and every once in a while, they come and take you to takes pics of you being humiliated.
Sure, BIG @^#%#*@(#&$^ DEAL!

"They are killing US servicemen and MURDERING innocent bystanders who have committed no crime greater than trying to help put the G$% D@&^@# F*&(*&ING COUNTRY BACK TOGETHER. Let's get some perspaective here folks."

Aren't we full of ourselves. You were there to kick Saddam out, right? You have Saddam, right? So what the **** are you still doing there? They don't WANT your help. ****ing pack up and go back home. You know, your militaries, your government knows perfectly well how mentality is in middle west countries. By staying there, they are ASKING for it.
Pssst, a little tip about why France still won't go: coz like for Vietnam, we can say "been there, done that", way before you, in Algeria: the war, oh, easy, a real slaughter, we crushed them. Then the war was "over" and, funnily, it went much less smoothly. What did we hear about then? Tortures on both sides, civilians slaughtered, retributions, etc. Wait, where have I heard of that before?
The outcome was obvious, much like it was in Vietnam.
You should save face before it's too late, pack, and leave. Coz you're gonna leave, the amount of time you spend there will only change one factor: the number of coffins you'll bring back with you.

[Janos]

Originally posted by Deepblue
You realize of couse, that when they say it was because of Abu Gharib or whatever there lying? They killed him because he was american.

Whoa, I'm late. Maybe I still should contribute.
Most likely, but what happened in Abu Ghraib is a huge deal to muslims. To them it's worse than death. To them it's like making you eat your own **** or sodomize your kid (I may be exaggerating, but I am short of comparisons. Western people are accustomed to anything, we have no such large taboos as Muslims have with nudity and honour.)

The fact is that even though they propably killed him because he was American, they now can just point at Abu Ghraib and sprout out some stupid ****. There are excuses for everything, and the prison scandal gives an excellent one.

Also, US and British (also Australians wtf mate^^? ) psychologically torturing prisoners - an act also prohibited by Geneva Convention, btw - is a bit different thing than random proud reprazentas of allah akbar crew decapitating an American. Switching reasons to go to war is bad enough. Finally sticking to humanitarian reasons and then acting more like Sonderkommando Sturmbannführer is pretty much digging your own hole - USA is losing it's stance of morality and dignity, some things they hold dear and make people like Liberator sprout their retarded **** without any idea how world works outside whereever they are. Granted, this is not solely an American problem, but while representing a world's number one economical, military and cultural power one-eyed thinking looks just pretty goddamn stupid.

BTW: "OMG they're savages, let's nuke [insert token city] back into stone age" ^the extreme

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ionia23
Obviously we don't do a good enough job of that, seeing as we're expected to be perfect, omnipotent, infallible gods, so why not simply exceed everyone else's expectations and "do as they do", but on a signifigantly larger scale?

Cause christians claim that their God tells them not to "do as they do". You can't have it both ways. If you want everyone else to live by those commandments you should be seen trying to live by them first.

The simple fact is that Liberators comments have revealed that he isn't really a christian. Mearly someone dressed up in the retoric of one. A real christian would have listened to Jesus's message and wouldn't be advocating the deaths of thousends of men, women and children who've done nothing wrong other than be born in the proximity of terrorists.

It's really getting bad when an atheist like myself understands the message of the bible better than a self proclaimed christian