[Herra Tohtori]

Nope, i'm not seeing any changes what-so-ever.. 

I see a change. The height map works.

The cockpit glass, however, is screwed up (you probably knew that already, but whatever).

[Scooby_Doo]

Still nope, which build should I be using or is there a problem with the 8800 drivers?  Also what you mean the glass is screwed up?

[Herra Tohtori]

Two shots from same angle, same zoom, only disabling height map in the former and enabling it for the latter.

Without heightmap:



With heightmap:




Cockpit glass rendering order screw-up:

[Cobra]

Eureka! I think I got it!

[Scooby_Doo]

Whoooo somethings really messed up with the cockpit 

Oh wait.... the cockpit and frame textures weren't included, they're part of the additional.vp package i put commonly used textures in. Ignore the cockpit.

And this is what i see:
with:


without:


be back latter.. gotta run.

[Herra Tohtori]

Okay, that would explain the cockpit.

About the height maps... check that you have -height stuffed somewhere in your cmdline string.

[Scooby_Doo]

Okay, that would explain the cockpit.

About the height maps... check that you have -height stuffed somewhere in your cmdline string.

That did the trick! I thought height was automatically included with -normal  (There is no checkbox for height mapping)

[spartan_0214]

Is this a command line for FSO or for whatever 3D modeling program you are running? If it's FSO, enabling now...

[Herra Tohtori]

Is this a command line for FSO or for whatever 3D modeling program you are running? If it's FSO, enabling now...

It's the ship lab. FS2_Open Main screen turn on; F3-key press. Select the ships from list.

[Alan Bolte]

Two shots from same angle, same zoom, only disabling height map in the former and enabling it for the latter.
Without heightmap:
http://i13.tinypic.com/8ea4tok.png
With heightmap:
http://i9.tinypic.com/6okk0v7.png

If you look in the lower-left corner of the image you can see a distinct difference between the with and without pics. The without pic looks great, but there's something odd about the with pic. What I can't figure out is exactly what I'm seeing - it looks like the line between hull plates in the normal map has shifted to the left (which would be fine on its own), but has failed to take the black line in the texture map along with it, making it look like there's two seperate lines.

[Vasudan Admiral]

Ok, there is no way that ship needs a heightmap - in fact it barely needs a normal map because the surface is simply flat already.

On surfaces that are flat and meant to be flat, just use a shine map.
On surfaces with medium-large detail that would be very poly-expensive to make in 3d, use a normal map.
On surfaces with large-huge details that actually protrude or recess into the surface significantly, augment the normal map with a height map.
Anything bigger than that and it should be modelled in.

Remember that you want a strong normal map or it's just a total waste of resources. They are designed to be easy ways to make a lot of 3d detail that isn't actually there. Not to tweak the appearance of a ship by a few pixels close up.

[Scooby_Doo]

Two shots from same angle, same zoom, only disabling height map in the former and enabling it for the latter.
Without heightmap:
http://i13.tinypic.com/8ea4tok.png
With heightmap:
http://i9.tinypic.com/6okk0v7.png

If you look in the lower-left corner of the image you can see a distinct difference between the with and without pics. The without pic looks great, but there's something odd about the with pic. What I can't figure out is exactly what I'm seeing - it looks like the line between hull plates in the normal map has shifted to the left (which would be fine on its own), but has failed to take the black line in the texture map along with it, making it look like there's two seperate lines.

Yes I've notice that too on another ship.  Honestly I don't really like the height mapping, makes things look a bit 'fat' and rounded.

[Vasudan Admiral]

Parallax mapping does not round anything in any way - it shifts the texture around to create a parallax effect. It's the normal map that is doing the rounding.

[Bobboau]

besides all that you realy shouldn't use bump maps on fighters anyway, it's not very noticeable except on capships where you can see the details across a great range of distances.

[Kaine]

Two shots from same angle, same zoom, only disabling height map in the former and enabling it for the latter.
Without heightmap:
http://i13.tinypic.com/8ea4tok.png
With heightmap:
http://i9.tinypic.com/6okk0v7.png

If you look in the lower-left corner of the image you can see a distinct difference between the with and without pics. The without pic looks great, but there's something odd about the with pic. What I can't figure out is exactly what I'm seeing - it looks like the line between hull plates in the normal map has shifted to the left (which would be fine on its own), but has failed to take the black line in the texture map along with it, making it look like there's two seperate lines.

It looks to me like the Normal map is misaligned in some areas.

Ok, there is no way that ship needs a heightmap - in fact it barely needs a normal map because the surface is simply flat already.

On surfaces that are flat and meant to be flat, just use a shine map.
On surfaces with medium-large detail that would be very poly-expensive to make in 3d, use a normal map.
On surfaces with large-huge details that actually protrude or recess into the surface significantly, augment the normal map with a height map.
Anything bigger than that and it should be modelled in.

Remember that you want a strong normal map or it's just a total waste of resources. They are designed to be easy ways to make a lot of 3d detail that isn't actually there. Not to tweak the appearance of a ship by a few pixels close up.

Sounds like good advice. Maybe some guidelines should be set out on what size ships should have height maps.

Parallax mapping does not round anything in any way - it shifts the texture around to create a parallax effect. It's the normal map that is doing the rounding.

Not sure if this was in response to me but all the same. This is correct, Parallax mapping shifts sections of a texture relative to the players viewpoint to create the illusion of height, as opposed to a normal map which doesn't shift the texture at all, instead it dictates the way light sources should affect the texture. I'm having trouble finding the words to explain what I mean. If you look at page 7 of this Relief mapping white paper there is a comparison of Bump mapping, Parallax mapping and Relief Mapping. Notice on the Parallax mapping example how it shifts the texture in such a way that the areas of light and dark actually change size and shape, as opposed to Bump mapping where these areas change shade but not shape or size. This means that the illusion is not lost so easily when viewing the texture from an angle (from directly in front they would look pretty much the same). To me the effect is more obvious on curved details because the change in the crescents of light and dark is more pronounced than polygonal shapes. Big problem with Parallax mapping is that unless you're careful, you can have some nasty effects at the edges of a texture of the height of the intersecting texture does not match. Also having large height map changes in a small space can lead to jaggies when viewed from an acute angle. Therefore IMO Bump Mapping should be used for things like armour plates where the intersecting edges *need* to match up, and Parallax mapping should be used for details that do not cross the edges of a texture mapped area.

Wow I hope that makes sense.

[Scooby_Doo]

Ok we have the following:
diffuse map (duh by default)
illumination map (glow map)  *-glow
spec map  *-shine
normal map *-normal
height map *-height

What else should I be aware of?  What about just bump mapping (not the height mapping) or does using bump with normals automatically become parallex?
Also what about environ mapping?

[Herra Tohtori]

IIRC the shinemap's alpha channel can be used as environment reflection intensity map (if the -alpha_env cmdline option is enabled in addition to the -env, which enables env mapping in the first place); if there's no alpha in the shinemap then the shinemap RGB intensity defines the environmental reflections as well as specular reflections.

[Scooby_Doo]

More...

[BlackDove]

Too many words, not enough screenshots of the new Freespace ships that'll be going into the MediaVP's.

[TrashMan]

Ok we have the following:
diffuse map (duh by default)
illumination map (glow map)  *-glow
spec map  *-shine
normal map *-normal
height map *-height

Now I'm a bit confused....

diffuse map = texture itself..pretty colors and stuffz
glowmap = windows/reactors glowing...completely black texture save for the glowing bits
spec map = map that determines light refraction (grayscale map)
normal map = something like a bump map but way better...gives illusion of more detail
height map = ?

IIRC; the bump map works by moving the pixels up/down/left/right during rasterization phase depending on the angle you're looking from.
Or am I confusing something here?