[IceyJones]

agreed from my side.....it is dangerous to make too much.....unopstrusive use of this effect serves the look much more imhonevertheless great work is done here...

[castor]

I think the "padded" look fits for vasudan ships, to certain extent. Not so much with terran ones.

[Cobra]

You all realize that you don't have to have the normal maps, right?

[Herra Tohtori]

I think the "padded" look fits for vasudan ships, to certain extent. Not so much with terran ones.

Yeah... if the texture has a two feet wide seamlines (like in the Bakha, for example...), it's kinda hard to make them any smaller on the normal map, it'd just look even more out of place IMHO than having thick and deep seams between plates. And shivan as well, to some extent. Terran textures usually don't have quite as wide seamlines IIRC.

Otherwise I wholeheartedly agree that it is like any other effect - it can be well-implemented, providing a tasty addition to the model detail, or obscenely overdone... (parade balloon was a good comparision... Although FreeSpace ships would make hella cool parade balloons! )

In my honest opinion, for example the Perseus normal map could be toned down a notch or two. It was one of the first models to receive normal map, so it was likely at least partially made to showcase what the system can do, but it does appear quite a bit too bumpy now to my eyes. It's not too bad for the most part, but some places appear flatter on the model/texture than the normal map makes them look like.


Also, it might be worth experimenting not making the wide seam lines in Vasudan ships so deep but rather just kinda gap revealing a lower surface just slightly below the level of the armour plates. Also, the profile of the seamline would be worth experimenting with - is it square sharp-edged, triangular with pointy bottom, spherical, sine curve, gaussian bell curve or what (viewed along the seam, obviously).

[redsniper]

it's just like when -spec was new and everything was WAY too shiny. Then we eventually got toned down spec maps and all was well.

[TrashMan]

I have to aprtially agree here - while tehy do look good, the normal maps sometimes feel overdone and give the ship a too plastic look. just my 2 cents.

[DaBrain]

@Herra

Yeah, the Perseus will be redone.

@Everbody else

Well, pick up some work. Even with the just the most basic image editing skills, you create a decent normal map.
It will take a lot more to create a really good one though.

[bkd86]

it's just like when -spec was new and everything was WAY too shiny. Then we eventually got toned down spec maps and all was well.

That is still the problem here. Normal maps don't have to look all shiny, if you have the spec done properly in the alpha channel then it should look like metal not plastic. The other "problem" is that most of these normal maps are being created from the texture art. You can get good results that way, but the best way seems to be doing a new low poly mesh, then building a very high poly one and bake the normal map onto the low poly one. Its a lot of work but looks more "real" instead of added on. If anyone has seen the wing commander pioneer models with textures, they are good examples of normal maps that aren't too strong (spec and normal map). http://www.crius.net/zone/attachment.php?attachmentid=2055&d=1163496538

[DaBrain]

You'll have to trust me on this one anyway. 

FS2 is too fast to really see normal maps very well, as you usually don't see the fighters very close.
And you may have noticed that the capital ship maps aren't that extreme.

It may not be the best way for screenshots, but it's most likely the best way for graphics during the gameplay.
Also, FS2 is a rather colorful, effect-extreme game. Big glows, big beams, huge vibrant nebulas, ect.

I simply think it wouldn't be right to go for a too realistic look now.

(And yes, I do like Howard Day's models anyway.)

the best way seems to be doing a new low poly mesh, then building a very high poly one and bake the normal map onto the low poly one. Its a lot of work but looks more "real" instead of added on.

Yes, a lot of work. Especially with already triangulated models (source files, anyone?). I'd eve say it's too much work to justify the work.

And baking sounds so easy, but it's actually quite painful to fight with the cage. You often end up with stretched details, which really don't look 'real' in any way. So you need to take your time for the baking too.

I will do it for one model later, but that's it.

[bkd86]

Dabrain, don't mistake me, I'm not criticizing your work, in fact I'm thrilled that someone is doing it, and that model from FS1 turned out beautifully. I have done several years off mod work (I'm not very good) on a HL2 mod with normal map generation from textures to know how hard it is to work with a existing model and try to make something look better that wasn't designed to. As stated earlier, most of the things that people are complaining about are things that can't easily be changed d/t the UV maps the texture sizes etc. I would love to help, but it would probably take someone too much time to get me up to speed on the conversions and compiling stuff to make it worth anyones while.

[DaBrain]

Well, FS2 is pretty uncomplicated when it comes to modding. Adding a normal map and testing it is really just a simple as it should be.

All you need is VPView32 to open the pack files, that contain the content. Pick one, work out a normal map and simply save it in the /data/maps/ folder "name-normal.dds". And it should work.



I didn't understand this at critism. I just wanted to make clear I'm doing it this way on purpose. I wouldn't create those kind of rounded normal maps for a FPS or an RPG.

I think I should take a few screenshots that show the mid-distance impressions.

Edit:
New Perseus normal map. It's still quite strong but see for yourself:





Now on mid-distance it's hardly visible at all.




Btw, the problem of the old map was an error. Never edit normal maps by hand.

[Vasudan Admiral]

I've looked back at all the normal mapped ships done so far, and I see no evidence of any 'parade balloons' at all. The Vasudan ships so far (with the exception of the Taurets cockpit) look excellent.

The normal mapping really brings the crab-like armour plate detail to life where the flat maps could never do it justice, while keeping the surfaces that are supposed to be flat nice and smooth. The Thoth and Ra look especially awesome. Of the Terran ships, only the Zeus has slightly over-rounded plates to my eye - all the others (especially the Herc2) look perfect.

DaB: One thing you could try is overlaying a no-paint version of the diffuse map onto the heightmap just very faintly. I did this on the lucifer and it had a far better result than I was expecting:

Of course, this is a still unbalanced normal map, and is moreover only in blender - I'm yet to try it in-game.

[Turambar]

the best so far is that loki on page one.

when i show off what fs2 can do now, i show people that loki (and the zeus with the asteroids)

[bkd86]

Only question I have is are you using a separate spec map or is it in the alpha channel of the normal map (for specular).

[Kaine]

the best so far is that loki on page one.

when i show off what fs2 can do now, i show people that loki (and the zeus with the asteroids)

Agreed. The Loki is phenomenal. That's the benchmark for normal map quality imo.

[DaBrain]

Only question I have is are you using a separate spec map or is it in the alpha channel of the normal map (for specular).

It's a separate map that contains also the informations for the environment mapping.


The maps work like this

Diffuse
RGB - Colors
Alpha - Opacity

Specular "-shine"
RGB - Color (additive blended over diffuse I think)
Alpha - Environment Mapping strenght


Glow "-glow"
RGB - Color (always full-bright)
Alpha - Nothing

Normal (DXTnm) -normal
R - Not used
G - Green channel from uncompressed map
B - Not used
Alpha - Red channel from uncompressed map


Height "-height"
RGB - Strenght


-ogl_spec  (in the launcher) = global glossiness value

@Kaine
I don't think the Loki map is bad, but I think the Loki mostly looks that good because it's the (second?) best "HTL" model so far. It doesn't really look like it has a metal surface anymore, but a bit more like stone.

[MetalDestroyer]

What is height and the diffuse ? I mean what do they do ? I thought Normal map is just enought (have height and diffuse also).

[DaBrain]

Diffuse map, base map, color map whatever you might call it, it's just the basic texture of the ship.

While normal maps don't really have any height informations, height maps do. They're used for parallax mapping.
I don't know how exactly it works, but it seems to move texture parts of ships faster or slower (depending on the map) while you fly around a parallax mapped object.

The 'higher' parts on the texture move faster and the 'lower' parts move slower, so in movement, it looks like it really has some kind of depth.
And the main problem I found out with this is that you need a rather smooth gradient for 3d effects on this, beause otherwise you really the see the moving 'layers', but you don't always want to have rounded stuff with smooth gradients. You can either keep the effect rather weak, or use it for rounded stuff only. It will come in handy (I got some ideas already ), but atm, I won't use it and continue working on normal maps only.


Edit: Damn... this one is though. The model and the textures suck. And the HTL Model even has some fun UV problems..




Edit2: There is something seriously wrong with the mapping of the HTL model. There are so many problems in there, even the original model looks almost better with normal maps...

[CKid]

Yeah, in my opinion the HTL Erinyes is the worst of the HTL models and should seriously be redone. No offends to the person who made it but it looks like it was quickly slapped together and rushed into service.

[Hades]

I've looked back at all the normal mapped ships done so far, and I see no evidence of any 'parade balloons' at all. The Vasudan ships so far (with the exception of the Taurets cockpit) look excellent.

The normal mapping really brings the crab-like armour plate detail to life where the flat maps could never do it justice, while keeping the surfaces that are supposed to be flat nice and smooth. The Thoth and Ra look especially awesome. Of the Terran ships, only the Zeus has slightly over-rounded plates to my eye - all the others (especially the Herc2) look perfect.

DaB: One thing you could try is overlaying a no-paint version of the diffuse map onto the heightmap just very faintly. I did this on the lucifer and it had a far better result than I was expecting:

Of course, this is a still unbalanced normal map, and is moreover only in blender - I'm yet to try it in-game.

Looks cool and slimy at the same time...