[Snail]

What money? The GTVA just lost a important economic system and the whole fleet, they're in for a serious economic hardship after Capella, and nobody is going to give their money so the GTVA can build warships and go chase shivans.

I'm going to go join the PCA. Do I get a shiny star-shaped badge?

[Mobius]

You exaggerate when you consider the loss of Capella a terrible one. Most civilians managed to escape and the GTVA suffered major losses in other battles(just think about Epsilon Pegasi...80,000 casualties!). Destroyers like the Messana and the Aquitaine escaped from the system before Apocalypse. Who knows how many other ships did the same!

Under an economical point of view, the might have lost important factories. But the NTF leaved much more problems.

[Sarafan]

I dont exaggerate, together with the losses inflicted by both the NTF and the Shivans and the now thoushands of refugees in need, the GTVA is in for a serious hard time, that's obvious.

And we know how much of the fleet is left when Petrarch says the *whole fleet* has been pulverized. Even if two destroyers escaped, they are hardly enough to secure the whole GTVA, much less a important system.

[Snail]

But pulling everyone's money from welfare and free medical care and whatever to making Colossi is BOUND to make something happen. How would you feel if your government went and raised the taxes by insane amounts to build nuclear warheads?

[Mobius]

I dont exaggerate, together with the losses inflicted by both the NTF and the Shivans and the now thoushands of refugees in need, the GTVA is in for a serious hard time, that's obvious.

And we know how much of the fleet is left when Petrarch says the *whole fleet* has been pulverized. Even if two destroyers escaped, they are hardly enough to secure the whole GTVA, much less a important system.

Then consider also the NTF, not only Capella. Keep in mind that the NTF had almost 10 destroyers, the whole GTVA fleet should be immense. Though the losses in Capella were considerable, most assets were still available to put and end to any kind of military coup.

I don't think that the whole GTVA fleet got terminated in Capella. It's impossible!

[Sarafan]

Then consider also the NTF, not only Capella. Keep in mind that the NTF had almost 10 destroyers, the whole GTVA fleet should be immense. Though the losses in Capella were considerable, most assets were still available to put and end to any kind of military coup.

I don't think that the whole GTVA fleet got terminated in Capella. It's impossible!

The canon information that we do have confirms that the entire fleet has been destroyed, it's right there.

[Snail]

... And *most* of our fleet.

[Sarafan]

... And *most* of our fleet.

What?

[Mobius]

Come on! The whole GTVA fleet was destroyed in Capella?

And what about Wolf 359? That system has a fleet. Even in case of call for reinforcements when the first Sathanas appeared, the fleet coming from that system would have never arrived in time!

[Snail]

The final cutscene.

[Sarafan]

Come on! The whole GTVA fleet was destroyed in Capella?

And what about Wolf 359? That system has a fleet. Even in case of call for reinforcements when the first Sathanas appeared, the fleet coming from that system would have never arrived in time!

Yes, the whole fleet.

And Wolf 359? That place is in the middle of nowhere, how much of a *fleet* such system would have? They would be lucky to have even a destroyer.

[Kie99]

What evidence do you have for the whole fleet being destroyed?

[Mobius]

And Wolf 359? That place is in the middle of nowhere, how much of a *fleet* such system would have? They would be lucky to have even a destroyer.

If you fail Argonautica, in the debriefing it is mentioned your reassignment to the Wolf 359 fleet. But of course, you have to replay the mission.

What evidence do you have for the whole fleet being destroyed?

I quote. There's no concrete evidence. Most of all, it is difficult to believe.

[karajorma]

And what about Wolf 359? That system has a fleet. Even in case of call for reinforcements when the first Sathanas appeared, the fleet coming from that system would have never arrived in time!

How do you figure that? 10 minutes to transit the node, another couple of minutes to recharge engines for the in-system jump, another few minutes for the jump out. Even putting the time for the entire cycle at 30 minutes you could still get ships from any system to any other GTVA system in a day.

The final cutscene.

Petrarch may easily have been referring to 3rd Fleet, Capella rather than the entire GTVA fleet. It's quite hard to tell which one he meant.

[Mobius]

And what about Wolf 359? That system has a fleet. Even in case of call for reinforcements when the first Sathanas appeared, the fleet coming from that system would have never arrived in time!

How do you figure that? 10 minutes to transit the node, another couple of minutes to recharge engines for the in-system jump, another few minutes for the jump out. Even putting the time for the entire cycle at 30 minutes you could still get ships from any system to any other GTVA system in a day.

Depends. What if the nodes are too close for a intra system jump, but are still too far to be reached in time? One example is Knossos number 3. The Sathanas coming from it don't jump to the area near the node for the Nebula.

And the vessels need supplies during their travel. They shouldn't travel at all, it would cost too much. And there must have been GTVA fleets blockading the node to Capella, Vega and Epsilon Pegasi. What if a consistent Shivan force managed to pass through?

Petrarch may easily have been referring to 3rd Fleet, Capella rather than the entire GTVA fleet. It's quite hard to tell which one he meant.

At this point, becomes clear that Petrarch was refering to the 3rd Fleet. The system it was based on is gone, so "destroyed" would also work as a metaphore in this case.

[karajorma]

Depends. What if the nodes are too close for a intra system jump, but are still too far to be reached in time? One example is Knossos number 3. The Sathanas coming from it don't jump to the area near the node for the Nebula.

Then they jump to a staging location and then back to the destination node. That would add 10 minutes to the journey time perhaps.

At this point, becomes clear that Petrarch was refering to the 3rd Fleet. The system it was based on is gone, so "destroyed" would also work as a metaphore in this case.

That's in no way proven. You can't tell me that you can tell what he's talking about with 100% certainty from this.

No one can fathom how or why the Shivans destroyed the Capella star. We lost a place many of us called home. We lost entire squadrons, the Colossus, and most of our fleet. We lost so many friends that we celebrate our victory with grief and mourning.

Especially given that the Colossus was NOT part of 3rd fleet.

[Sarafan]

The NTF already did significant damage to the GTVA fleet, like you said look at what they did to the 6th fleet at EP, they lasted for 18 months doing damage till the end.

Then you have the shivans, the first Sat already breaks all thats in Capella before its destroyed and now with 80+ Sathanas, do you think the GTVA would station only the 3rd fleet there to defend it? Of course not.

[Frosty]

But pulling everyone's money from welfare and free medical care and whatever to making Colossi is BOUND to make something happen. How would you feel if your government went and raised the taxes by insane amounts to build nuclear warheads?

I would not care as long as it meant that humanity would not be wiped out.  The shivans are the single biggest threat to the humanity's whole existence.  Finding a way to stop them would be the biggest concern on any GTVA citizens mind. 

IMO Petrarch was talking about th entire GTVA fleet as a whole when he said pulverized.  Pulverized doesn't necessarily mean destroyed either, it could mean that most of it was lost or damaged (ie. out of commission for at least a while), but not necessarily destroyed.

Besides we all saw the Sathanas take out that hecate in under 5s in Bearbating.  What good would making more Hecate's do when the Colossus was really the only thing that could stand toe to toe with a Sathanas.  I think the  GTVA should build more Colossus' at least for the meantime while it works to develop better destroyers or super destroyers that can actually last against a Sathanas.

[Mobius]

Depends. What if the nodes are too close for a intra system jump, but are still too far to be reached in time? One example is Knossos number 3. The Sathanas coming from it don't jump to the area near the node for the Nebula.

Then they jump to a staging location and then back to the destination node. That would add 10 minutes to the journey time perhaps.

It would be possible. We should take something in consideration: were the reinforcements sortied to face the first Sathanas or the Juggernaut fleet? In the second case, arriving in time would have been difficult.

Also, why would the GTVA send the whole fleet? Were the GTVA outposts in Vega, Epsilon Pegasi and Capella able to resupply a so big fleet? Epsilon Pegasi was still affected by what the NTF did a few weeks(days?)before.

At this point, becomes clear that Petrarch was refering to the 3rd Fleet. The system it was based on is gone, so "destroyed" would also work as a metaphore in this case.

That's in no way proven. You can't tell me that you can tell what he's talking about with 100% certainty from this.

I know, we can't be sure, but is probable that Petrarch was refering to the 3rd Fleet. Again, we can't be sure of it.

Then you have the shivans, the first Sat already breaks all thats in Capella before its destroyed and now with 80+ Sathanas, do you think the GTVA would station only the 3rd fleet there to defend it? Of course not.

Well, the player can prevent that massacre. This means that it shouldn't be considered. There are some glitches, like the Colossus that sustains moderate damage even if you disarm the Sathanas' main beam weapons in Bearbaiting. Again, we can't be sure

I would not care as long as it meant that humanity would not be wiped out.  The shivans are the single biggest threat to the humanity's whole existence.  Finding a way to stop them would be the biggest concern on any GTVA citizens mind.

I agree, but keep in mind that strange things happen under these circumstances. What if an apocalyptic sect(it could even be Terran)spreads propaganda? What if the GTVA citizens realize that nothing can survive? They will rather cut themselves off from the GTVA. For example, the goverment of a system could proclamate that system independent. They could collapse all nodes taking to other GTVA systems. "We have what we need. The Shivans won't get here to kill us, and you won't get here to take our money away!". I know that it may seem exaggerate, but...who knows?

IMO Petrarch was talking about th entire GTVA fleet as a whole when he said pulverized.  Pulverized doesn't necessarily mean destroyed either, it could mean that most of it was lost or damaged (ie. out of commission for at least a while), but not necessarily destroyed.

It may be a translation problem, but...pulverized means pulverized! Whatever Petrarch was refering to, it is now powder...

Besides we all saw the Sathanas take out that hecate in under 5s in Bearbating.  What good would making more Hecate's do when the Colossus was really the only thing that could stand toe to toe with a Sathanas.  I think the  GTVA should build more Colossus' at least for the meantime while it works to develop better destroyers or super destroyers that can actually last against a Sathanas.

Is the Phoenicia supposed to escape? You can't be sure of its destruction. The Thebes jumps in and its CO talks about a large debris field, ok, but the debris could be remnants of other GTVA ships, Phoenicia* excluded.

It's pretty much a plot hole: the Phoenicia isn't even mentioned in the debriefing. In case of destruction, it should have been mentioned. In case of desertion, it should have been mentioned....maybe not... 

[Black Wolf]

Collossus reconstruction could go either way. On the one hand, as has been pointed out, all the hard work (testing, designing etc. etc.) for collossus class ships had been done, they were exceptionally successful at what they were designed to do (eliminating destroyers)), plus all the yards and whatnot would have been in place, experienced personnel, etc. etc.

On the other hand, given the likely economic situation post capella, it might have been hard to get it budgetted for, especially with other major projects begging for funds (Sol knossos, Capellan refugee resettlement etc. etc.)

If I were in government, I think I'd raise taxes somewhat, and go for a second Collossus, while reactivating a few mothballed destroyers/cruisers etc. if they're available (I'm mostly thinking Typhons and atens here). I'd hold up the Collossus as a shining example of Terran Vasudan unity that was all that stood against the Shivan hordes, and a crew which bravely sacrificed their lives that others might be saved. In the event of the alliance fracturing (some of the old Terran Blocs breaking away, for example), a Collossus would be of great use in retaking them.